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RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/17/2017 11:18:43 PM   
redcoat


Posts: 1035
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
Japan and the UK are moving forward with efforts to develop a new joint air-to-air missile.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/details-of-joint-missile-project-with-japan-emerge/

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“‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’”

George Orwell, 1984

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 1711
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/18/2017 9:50:44 AM   
xavierv


Posts: 517
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		our last SNA 2017 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNln7gS4QQ

In this video, coverage of:
- Boeing Harpoon ER anti-ship missile
- Raytheon SeaRAM and RAM Block 2 missile
- Lockheed Martin export LCS / MMSC Multi Mission Surface Combatant
- Curtiss-Wright TRAPS sonar system
- Atlas North America SeaCAT AUV

_____________________________

www.navalnews.com

(in reply to redcoat)
Post #: 1712
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/18/2017 11:23:39 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Excellent reporting! Looked like a fun event.

Mike

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Post #: 1713
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/18/2017 10:52:19 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/meet-chinas-sharp-sword-a-stealth-drone-that-can-likely-carry-2-tons-of-bombs/ar-AAlZTDJ?li=BBnb7Kz




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 1/18/2017 10:53:17 PM >

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1714
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 12:08:35 AM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline 		It's simply too risky to proliferate nuclear arsenal in the future, and cannot equalize the measure by destroying the world.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/xi-calls-world-without-nuclear-weapons-174358713.html

quote:

"Nuclear weapons should be completely prohibited and destroyed over time to make the world free of nuclear weapons,"


Also a scenario opportunity:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/01/18/asia-pacific/politics-diplomacy-asia-pacific/trump-adviser-bolton-ex-u-s-envoy-u-n-backs-stationing-forces-taiwan/
http://3g.china.com/act/military/11132797/20170119/30188894.html (Simplified Chinese, with short note of "this can be an act of war.")

quote:

In a commentary published Tuesday in The Wall Street Journal likely to stoke anger in China, Bolton said Washington “could enhance its East Asia military posture by increasing U.S. military sales to Taiwan and by again stationing military personnel and assets there.”

In the commentary, Bolton also noted that the stationing of U.S. military personnel in Taiwan could help alleviate other problems in East Asia, including in Okinawa Prefecture, which hosts the bulk of U.S. forces in Japan.


< Message edited by Dysta -- 1/19/2017 12:21:45 AM >

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Post #: 1715
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 12:34:01 AM   
Hongjian

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline
quote:

Bolton also noted that the stationing of U.S. military personnel in Taiwan could help alleviate other problems in East Asia


Holy crap.
That's, like, the worst offense you can commit in China's eyes. They can accept literally everything, even that SCS island blockade - but US troops in Taiwan would instantly prompt war. That's not even funny. That's Cuba-crisis-like sort of unfunny.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 1716
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 2:33:16 AM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		Its going to be a long 4 years...

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1717
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 6:10:37 AM   
strykerpsg

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raptorx7

Its going to be a long 4 years...


Because the last 8 years have been so stabilizing.......back to OP threads

(in reply to Raptorx7_slith)
Post #: 1718
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 6:26:23 AM   
strykerpsg

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: navyrecognition

our last SNA 2017 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNln7gS4QQ

In this video, coverage of:
- Boeing Harpoon ER anti-ship missile


Nice video! Question about the Harpoon ER, are they only extending it's range? While the added range is nice, it needs some added stealth characteristics to be competitive with the likes of NSM.

(in reply to xavierv)
Post #: 1719
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 11:36:06 AM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: strykerpsg


quote:

ORIGINAL: raptorx7

Its going to be a long 4 years...


Because the last 8 years have been so stabilizing.......back to OP threads



Assuming that I don't think that either is pretty silly, don't twist it to fit a narrative.

(in reply to strykerpsg)
Post #: 1720
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 1:41:20 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

quote:

Bolton also noted that the stationing of U.S. military personnel in Taiwan could help alleviate other problems in East Asia


Holy crap.
That's, like, the worst offense you can commit in China's eyes. They can accept literally everything, even that SCS island blockade - but US troops in Taiwan would instantly prompt war. That's not even funny. That's Cuba-crisis-like sort of unfunny.


Would Taiwan actually allow it? It would be highly provocative from their POV of relations to the PRC as well. However it would show China that just because they say/want something doesn't automatically make it true.

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1721
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 2:36:49 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Strickly speaking Taiwan is a sovereign nation and can do whatever it wants although it should be acting in its own best interest. I know China doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but so what. The ground truth is what matters.

My worry is it just looks like the US and allies are containing China by beefing up the first island chain. That might not actually be the intent but appearances are everything these days.

Mike



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Post #: 1722
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 2:40:49 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: strykerpsg


quote:

ORIGINAL: navyrecognition

our last SNA 2017 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNln7gS4QQ

In this video, coverage of:
- Boeing Harpoon ER anti-ship missile


Nice video! Question about the Harpoon ER, are they only extending it's range? While the added range is nice, it needs some added stealth characteristics to be competitive with the likes of NSM.



Yeah that is my sense too or need to carry and fire bigger salvos of them.

Mike

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(in reply to strykerpsg)
Post #: 1723
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 2:43:03 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

It's simply too risky to proliferate nuclear arsenal in the future, and cannot equalize the measure by destroying the world.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/xi-calls-world-without-nuclear-weapons-174358713.html

quote:

"Nuclear weapons should be completely prohibited and destroyed over time to make the world free of nuclear weapons,"


Also a scenario opportunity:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/01/18/asia-pacific/politics-diplomacy-asia-pacific/trump-adviser-bolton-ex-u-s-envoy-u-n-backs-stationing-forces-taiwan/
http://3g.china.com/act/military/11132797/20170119/30188894.html (Simplified Chinese, with short note of "this can be an act of war.")

quote:

In a commentary published Tuesday in The Wall Street Journal likely to stoke anger in China, Bolton said Washington “could enhance its East Asia military posture by increasing U.S. military sales to Taiwan and by again stationing military personnel and assets there.”

In the commentary, Bolton also noted that the stationing of U.S. military personnel in Taiwan could help alleviate other problems in East Asia, including in Okinawa Prefecture, which hosts the bulk of U.S. forces in Japan.



You're going to find a ton of public statements made during this past election that won't survive first contact with the job.

Mike

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Post #: 1724
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 2:44:42 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/meet-chinas-sharp-sword-a-stealth-drone-that-can-likely-carry-2-tons-of-bombs/ar-AAlZTDJ?li=BBnb7Kz





Looks familiar.

From a db standpoint its getting very difficult to track so many new platforms world wide. At the end of the day though you release that modeling the capability is much more reachable that exact fuel consumption rates


Mike

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Post #: 1725
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 5:41:33 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Live fire today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/19/b-2-bombers-kill-nearly-100-isis-terrorists-in-libya.html

The assault killed an estimated 85 terrorists ...
The bombers took off from their permanent base in Missouri and refueled at least five times midair during the mission. The planes flew around the world and back without landing. The strikes used strategic nuclear-capable bombers as opposed to more conventional jets stationed in England in order to "send a strategic message" to other adversaries such as Russia and China.



< Message edited by kevinkin -- 1/19/2017 5:46:12 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1726
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 6:33:11 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Live fire today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/19/b-2-bombers-kill-nearly-100-isis-terrorists-in-libya.html

The assault killed an estimated 85 terrorists ...
The bombers took off from their permanent base in Missouri and refueled at least five times midair during the mission. The planes flew around the world and back without landing. The strikes used strategic nuclear-capable bombers as opposed to more conventional jets stationed in England in order to "send a strategic message" to other adversaries such as Russia and China.



Interesting choice of which platforms to use. Wonder who they thought would tip off the camps with a more visible system? Another place that's turned messy politically.

Mike

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(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 1727
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 11:21:09 PM   
strykerpsg

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: strykerpsg


quote:

ORIGINAL: navyrecognition

our last SNA 2017 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNln7gS4QQ

In this video, coverage of:
- Boeing Harpoon ER anti-ship missile


Nice video! Question about the Harpoon ER, are they only extending it's range? While the added range is nice, it needs some added stealth characteristics to be competitive with the likes of NSM.



Yeah that is my sense too or need to carry and fire bigger salvos of them.

Mike


Concur....it perhaps just provides existing customers with an extension on their current inventories, though sort of like putting a band aid on something that needs a tourniquet.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1728
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/19/2017 11:42:17 PM   
OldSarge


Posts: 642
Joined: 11/25/2010
From: Albuquerque, NM
Status: offline 		IAF is starting to receive the Arrow 3 missile defense system capable of intercepting ICBMs outside of the atmosphere.
IAF Receives first Arrow 3 missile units

(in reply to strykerpsg)
Post #: 1729
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 3:23:25 AM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Interesting choice of which platforms to use. Wonder who they thought would tip off the camps with a more visible system? Another place that's turned messy politically.

Mike


I guess it was a fail safe way to flatten real estate with little collateral risk to civilians or crews. The time on target effect - to use an old artillery phrase - was overwhelming. I read those that managed to escape the B2 attack were hunted down with drones. The nature of the attack sends message re: global capability as mentioned in the article. I would be interested in seeing the flight track after bombs away. Did the B2s wave over Tehran on the way home?

(in reply to strykerpsg)
Post #: 1730
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 10:01:19 AM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline 		China recently deployed second OTH radar base at Inner Mongolia, emission bearing is due east, nearly covered the entire Japan.

http://3g.china.com/act/military/11132797/20170120/30194046.html (Simplified Chinese)





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Post #: 1731
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 12:39:48 PM   
Hongjian

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		A good writeup about China's next gen missiles, including the PL-10, PL-15 and PL-X (Very Long Range AAM).

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/5680.html

An interesting and almost forgotten picture from years ago is also shown: A 300mm Ku-band AESA seeker.
The PL-X is in fact a 300mm diameter missile.



Some more information are revealed; such as the propable "N15 blended fuel (solid fuel mix)" as propellant, which is already used in other chinese tactical missiles.

Most interestingly, it states the difference in rocket propulsion between the PL-15 and PL-X, with the PL-15 being a dual-pulse rocket engine, while the PL-X is multi-pulse, meaning that it might have more than two stages inside.

A research paper excerpt showing a multi-stage rocket engine for an air-to-air missile:


This, in the end, correlates with the rumor that Chinese missile development has completely abandoned the earlier Ramjet designs in favor for multi-pulse rockets. According to an article, ramjets suffer from burn out and higher velocity drop than conventional rocket engines. The developmental charts showing the PL-21 long range ramjet missile might be the previous iteration of the PL-X. So, in fact the PL-X that now has been spotted onboard an operational J-11B during last-year Red Sword Excercise, might be the long rumored PL-21.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 1732
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 1:38:05 PM   
Eggstor

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Live fire today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/19/b-2-bombers-kill-nearly-100-isis-terrorists-in-libya.html

The assault killed an estimated 85 terrorists ...
The bombers took off from their permanent base in Missouri and refueled at least five times midair during the mission. The planes flew around the world and back without landing. The strikes used strategic nuclear-capable bombers as opposed to more conventional jets stationed in England in order to "send a strategic message" to other adversaries such as Russia and China.



Interesting choice of which platforms to use. Wonder who they thought would tip off the camps with a more visible system? Another place that's turned messy politically.

Mike

I don't think the use of stealth was necessary for the actual mission. Rather, it was an integral part of the "message" sent to the Russians and Chinese.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1733
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:06:41 PM   
Hongjian

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		Translation: Anti Ship Ballistic Missile [censored part] Directly Hit The Target Ship



That would be the first ever photo evidence of the ASBM being tested against a ship.

I think they most probably used an inert warhead, or else, there wouldnt be anything left to analyze.

(in reply to Eggstor)
Post #: 1734
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:11:01 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Eggstor


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Live fire today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/19/b-2-bombers-kill-nearly-100-isis-terrorists-in-libya.html

The assault killed an estimated 85 terrorists ...
The bombers took off from their permanent base in Missouri and refueled at least five times midair during the mission. The planes flew around the world and back without landing. The strikes used strategic nuclear-capable bombers as opposed to more conventional jets stationed in England in order to "send a strategic message" to other adversaries such as Russia and China.



Interesting choice of which platforms to use. Wonder who they thought would tip off the camps with a more visible system? Another place that's turned messy politically.

Mike

I don't think the use of stealth was necessary for the actual mission. Rather, it was an integral part of the "message" sent to the Russians and Chinese.


Its not really them I'm thinking of. The alliances between the different factions within the Libyan government and various middle eastern nations is a tangled web. Perhaps Homeland coming back on is messing with my perceptions but you do wonder who's really pulling for who.

Mike

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Post #: 1735
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:12:26 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

A good writeup about China's next gen missiles, including the PL-10, PL-15 and PL-X (Very Long Range AAM).

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/5680.html

An interesting and almost forgotten picture from years ago is also shown: A 300mm Ku-band AESA seeker.
The PL-X is in fact a 300mm diameter missile.



Some more information are revealed; such as the propable "N15 blended fuel (solid fuel mix)" as propellant, which is already used in other chinese tactical missiles.

Most interestingly, it states the difference in rocket propulsion between the PL-15 and PL-X, with the PL-15 being a dual-pulse rocket engine, while the PL-X is multi-pulse, meaning that it might have more than two stages inside.

A research paper excerpt showing a multi-stage rocket engine for an air-to-air missile:


This, in the end, correlates with the rumor that Chinese missile development has completely abandoned the earlier Ramjet designs in favor for multi-pulse rockets. According to an article, ramjets suffer from burn out and higher velocity drop than conventional rocket engines. The developmental charts showing the PL-21 long range ramjet missile might be the previous iteration of the PL-X. So, in fact the PL-X that now has been spotted onboard an operational J-11B during last-year Red Sword Excercise, might be the long rumored PL-21.



Thanks I've added the PL-15 although the evidence is somewhat slim. PL-21 is probably a ways off.

Do you know of any recent photos of the the PL-15?

Mike

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Post #: 1736
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:29:38 PM   
Hongjian

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		The most recent photo of the PL-15 is very bad quality/censored one, but might confirm that the J-10B/C has the capability to carry it now:



My guess is that the PL-10/PL-15/PL-21 development schedule has closely followed this previously known chart: The dates do make sense, especially with the PL-10, which was spotted first (in 2011, onboard J-20 prototype #2002). The confusing part now is that most next gen missiles depicted on that chart now look quite different in reality - even the PL-10 does, which is still the closest one as on the chart (note the rear fins):



In case of the PL-10, we actually have evidence that the earlier prototypes of that missile indeed looked closer to that one depicted on the chart:

^note the "conventional" shape of the rear fin - which looks close to that in the chart, and compare it to the PL-10E, the export version of the final production variant:



So, my argument is that; just like the PL-10 had, all other next gen missiles have undergone partly radical changes in the developmental road - but in the end all more or less ended up in service by the time depicted plus/minus a few years: The PL-12D ramjet PL-12 has evolved into the PL-15 after giving up the ramjet in favor for dual-pulse rocket engine, the PL-21 ramjet powered "large missile" also ended up shedding the ramjet design to become the "PL-x" we have spotted onboard the J-16/J-11B etc. Latter missile, since it was spotted onboard an operaional J-11B Flanker during Red Sword Excercise on last year, has some credibility that it might be already in at least limited service or IOC, since it took part in a major confrontational excercise.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1737
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:40:22 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah what I did is added the PL-10 as the standard short range AAW missile for most PLAAF fighters and created separate PL-15 and PL-12 to handle long range stuff. From what I read this is mostly likely during that period as very few PL-15 will be bought. I also converted the SU-30MK PLAAF over to mostly Chinese weapons. I also added the KG-600 DECM pod to most PLAAF aircraft. That sound about right?

The PLAN is still a great mystery so I've left them alone so far. I haven't found much evidence of PL-10 or 15 integration. Any idea?

Mike



< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/20/2017 5:43:54 PM >

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(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1738
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 5:53:42 PM   
Hongjian

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		Hell, another PL-X leak just found in the forums. Oboard a J-11BS (Su-27UBK twin seat trainer).



Someone seems to be preparing for a major unveil or something. Chain-leaks of this kind are rare.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1739
RE: Naval and Defense News - 1/20/2017 6:38:44 PM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline 		With respect to the use of B-2s in Libya yesterday, WSJ has a "military official" on record saying that the ability to carry large numbers of weapons and loiter for a significant amount of time was the reason it was selected. The B-1 can't carry as many weapons as the B-2, and using F-15Es out of Lakenheath would have taken 12+ aircraft to get the weapons down to Libya, and would have been more fuel challenged and required more tanker support.

On anything that John Bolton says...he's on the far right of the neo-conservative movement. He's been calling for the US to bomb Iran for years, among other positions that advocate use of the US military and hard-power. While he will certainly have a louder voice in the new administration, I suspect the pragmatists in State and DoD will moderate the administration's actions significantly.

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1740
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