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RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 5:55:03 AM   
NakedWeasel


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You know, that looks suspiciously familiar...

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Post #: 211
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 6:34:01 AM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

You know, that looks OVERLY familiar...

Fixed for you.





Now let's see her 'father':



The difference of tail flaps speculate its strike-fighter configuration, which is both F-35 and J-20 are using. I am not sure if SAC really discard F-22A's flap design for the sake of cost and extra balance with heavier loadout. But as you expected, it IS a shameless copy of F-35A with skimmer body, and two mid-size engines.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 9/27/2015 7:38:53 AM >

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Post #: 212
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 10:27:29 AM   
thewood1

 

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Holy cow...that looks VERY similar.

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Post #: 213
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 1:24:30 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Well, most 5th gen fighters of similiar size are roughly similiar. Congruent development and similiar ideas to deal with same problems. Teh Japanese and the Korean concepts all look quite similiar to the F-35 or the FC-31 in one form or another.


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Post #: 214
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 2:53:25 PM   
thewood1

 

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I understand congruent development. But that is way beyond congruent development. You can have congruent development and not have them look that similar.

Back in engineering school, a professor used to use the Russian space shuttle design as an example of congruent development. He would bully any contrarian view in class...then this came out:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18686090/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/how-soviets-stole-space-shuttle/#.VggDEXpVhBc


< Message edited by thewood1 -- 9/27/2015 3:55:50 PM >

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Post #: 215
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 3:07:59 PM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I understand congruent development. But that is way beyond congruent development. You can have congruent development and not have them look that similar.


In short: If it LOOKS like a copy, it IS a copy.

The definition of "LOOK" is surely under different bias and understanding, but unfortunately, the actual understandings to look the difference between FC-31 and F-35 are as narrow as only pictures could suggests.

In that case, I don't blame anyone, designer included, to make such of similarity (or whatever people called like "evil copy" or "minion version") of aircraft. If innovation demands everything to be different, then more countries than just China should do NOTHING under this logic.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 9/27/2015 4:11:01 PM >

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Post #: 216
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 3:14:11 PM   
thewood1

 

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I don't have an issue with any part of the F-35 being copied. I just find people hiding the possibility of it being a copy behind the term congruent engineering.

A lot of people in the US don't like the F-35 design and its ability to fulfill its missions(s). I am curious if this Chinese plane has the same issues. If you are going to copy a design, shouldn't you copy one that is a proven success?

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Post #: 217
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 3:33:12 PM   
NakedWeasel


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I was thinking that too. Or even this surreal concept; what if it was meant to be stolen for our own nefarious purposes?

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Post #: 218
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 4:39:15 PM   
Dysta


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Whatever it is, we cannot conclude anything as long as the FC-31 isn't finalized yet.

Time will tell, if China really 'don't think F-35 is a failure'.

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Post #: 219
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 5:26:33 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Well, for once, two medium-thrust engines vs. one high-thrust engine, as well as a flatter and more streamlined fuselage vs. a 'fatter' fuselage are differences that arent really minor from an engineering standpoint.
As for the vertical stabilizers, the F-35 might be an obvious example that could support copying, but the J-20 features an F-35-styled all-moving tail as well. I'd rather think that SAC has been inspired by CAC, before copying the F-35.
Indeed, the mockup of the FC-31 production type looks like the F-35. But you can only do that much with a similiar sized plane, featuring roughly similiar avionics (the EOTS, for example, that's also installed on the J-20) and probably similiar roles.

As for the F-35 being a failure; I dont think that there is something inherently wrong with the F-35, aside of the fact that LM wanted this plane to become the jack of all trades and replace all other currently serving US fighters (aside of the F-22) and even ground attack planes. All other problems, like software fusion, engine issues, cracking wings etc. are all normal for a newly developed plane and will be solved in time.

As long as SAC doesnt have such ambitious goals and merely wants the FC-31 to be a relatively cheap medium-sized multirole stealth fighter, while relying on relatively mature subsystems and engines, they wont experience the F-35's 'mission creep' issue.

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Post #: 220
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/27/2015 6:36:51 PM   
thewood1

 

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I didn't say it was a failure...I actually think the opposite. I said some people believe that.

There is also marketing that has to be considered as to why they might make it look as much like the F-35 as possible.

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Post #: 221
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/28/2015 7:58:58 AM   
Dysta


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The debate of PL-15 super AAM, continues.

The missile itself, even with Popular Science's report, is still have various claiming of its size and diameter.

Popsci said it's 0.2m diameter, but many Chinese military reports claimed it is 0.38m diameter. This cause a familiar speculation toward the ex-Soviet superlong range AAM called K-100, hence the purpose to attack aerial logistic units. (And also, an entire series of K-100/KS-172S are not in DB3000 either)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-100_(missile)




< Message edited by Dysta -- 9/28/2015 9:01:36 AM >

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Post #: 222
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/28/2015 9:30:23 AM   
xavierv


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Naval news from DSEI 2015 show: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/naval-exhibitions/dsei-2015-naval-show-daily-news.html

And
Chinese Navy Fourth Type 071 LPD Amphibious Vessel Started Sea Trials
quote:

Chinese media recently released pictures showing the fourth People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN or Chinese Navy) Type 071 amphibious transport dock LPD Yimeng Shan (hull number 978) on sea trials. Yimeng Shan was built Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding, a wholly owned subsidiary of China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC, the largest shipbuilding group in China) as was the case for the first three Type 071 vessels. It was launched in January this year.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3125

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Post #: 223
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/28/2015 9:48:00 AM   
xavierv


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Australia to Finance the Development of a New Seeker for Kongsberg's Joint Strike Missile
quote:

On 15 September Norway and Australia signed an agreement where Australia will finance the development of a new capability for the seeker in the Joint Strike Missile (JSM, the air launched variant of the NSM - Naval Strike Missile), developed by Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence Systems (KDA). If Australia later decides to procure the JSM, then Norway and Australia will share the cost of integrating the JSM on the F-35.
...
The current seeker that is being developed for the JSM is based on a technology known as "imaging infra red" that enables the missile to detect and identify targets based on its heat signature. Under the terms of the newly signed agreement, BAE Australia will be tasked by the Australian Government to integrate a RF-seeking capability on the missile, which will enable to also locate targets on the basis of their electronic signature. This will further strengthen the ability of the missile to locate and identify targets on a modern battlefield.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3123

Seems like JSM is getting some of the LRASM capabilities ?

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Post #: 224
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/28/2015 1:25:53 PM   
Broncepulido

 

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It sounds as simultaneous Imaging Infra Red and Passive Radar (ESM, anti-radiation, anti-radar, anti-active jammer) homings.

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Post #: 225
RE: Naval and Defense News - 9/28/2015 8:49:12 PM   
Cheechako

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

It sounds as simultaneous Imaging Infra Red and Passive Radar (ESM, anti-radiation, anti-radar, anti-active jammer) homings.

Anybody know if that would be enough to target SAMs?

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Post #: 226
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/1/2015 8:43:11 AM   
xavierv


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Successful M51 Ballistic Missile SLBM Test by French Defense Procurement Agency DGA
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3134

After Mistral Class LHD, V-22 to be Tested for Interoperability with French Navy Aircraft Carrier
quote:

On September 28, 2015, the French Navy Naval Aviation Practical Experimentation Center (centre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale - CEPA) validated during a closing conference the interoperability between Mistral class LHDs and the Boeing V-22 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft. This conference embodies the result of two years of investigation and joint tests. The French Navy announced a similar campaign will be conducted with V-22 on board nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.
...
With the CEPA green light, Mistral class LHDs have a new capability: Accomodation and operational mission support of V-22 aircraft.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3137


September Naval Defense News: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/september-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news.html

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RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/1/2015 8:41:37 PM   
Triode

 

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So, second attempt to sell KAB-500S (GLONASS guided bomb)for RussianAF by KTRV is underway :



this time , I hope , with better price

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Post #: 228
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/1/2015 9:06:08 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Naval Excalibur weapon tested:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Raytheon_fires_new_naval_variant_of_combat-proven_Excalibur_999.html

quote:

Raytheon fires new naval variant of combat-proven Excalibur
by Ryan Maass
Tucson (UPI) Sep 30, 2015


disclaimer: image is for illustration purposes only
Raytheon successfully fired its new Excalibur N5 during a recent field test at the Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona, the company announced Wednesday.

The new projectile is a 5-inch/127 mm naval variant of the Excalibur used by the U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps, and several other armed forces around the world. It boasts triple the maximum effective range capability of conventional naval gun munitions, while delivering the same accuracy as the Excalibur Ib.

Duane Gooden, vice president of Raytheon's Land Warfare Systems product line, says the new projectile will be very helpful for the Navy.

"Excalibur N5's range, precision and lethality will revolutionize naval gunfire and increase the offensive firepower of our Navy's destroyers and cruisers," Gooden said in a statement. "This demonstration showcases the N5's maturity as a proven low-risk solution, and is ready for the Navy now."

The Excalibur N5 can be used for naval missions including surface fire support, anti-surface warfare, and countering fast attack craft.

The weapon was co-developed by Raytheon and London-based BAE Systems. According to Raytheon, about 770 rounds have been fired during combat missions. The company adds that the product saves on total mission cost through its lethality and accuracy.



Video of the model Excalibur Ib is here, range to target in the video is in upper right corner. :

https://youtu.be/VNCUeItvovs

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Post #: 229
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 5:41:48 AM   
wild_Willie2


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LOL

"The Excalibur N5 can be used for naval missions including surface fire support, anti-surface warfare, and countering fast attack craft".

Yes, you can use a GPS guided round to try and hit a moving ship or fast attack craft, however I doubt that you will actually hit them unless they keep moving in a strait line and at a fixed speed while under direct surveillance in a combat situation.

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Post #: 230
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 9:34:05 AM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

LOL

"The Excalibur N5 can be used for naval missions including surface fire support, anti-surface warfare, and countering fast attack craft".

Yes, you can use a GPS guided round to try and hit a moving ship or fast attack craft, however I doubt that you will actually hit them unless they keep moving in a strait line and at a fixed speed while under direct surveillance in a combat situation.

Maybe they missed the detail that it is also a smart-munition, like include the terminal IR tracking ability or so?

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Post #: 231
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 2:08:25 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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You guys both have valid points, but further investigation into the Excalibur N5 round mentions the following:

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/excalibur/

quote:

Raytheon is developing a laser-guided version of the projectile, the Excalibur S. This variant incorporates a digital semi-active laser seeker, allowing it to hit moving targets and engage and strike targets without accurate location information. It also reduces the risk associated with GPS jamming.


quote:

The company is also developing a 5-inch variant, the Excalibur N5. This sea-based projectile is expected to more than double the maximum range of conventional 5-inch munitions and will provide the same accuracy as the land-based version.




http://defensesystems.com/Articles/2014/06/16/Excalibur-S-GPS-laser-guidance.aspx

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/new-frontiers-for-raytheons-excalibur-gps-guided-shells-014580/

quote:

GPS-guided shells are useless in these situations, but laser targeting changes the equation. Raytheon says that Excalibur can fit standard naval 127mm (5-inch) projectile bodies, as well as the unique 155mm AGS guns on board the DDG 1000 Zumwalt Class. If testing bears that out, American cruisers and destroyers would all gain the equivalent of fully-integrated precision strike missiles with a range of over 13 nautical miles, creating a wide snap-reaction kill zone against fast attackers or surfaced submarines.

The US Navy isn’t the only fleet facing this issue, and they aren’t the only fleet who could be interested in this solution. 127mm guns are in widespread use among American allies, some of whom are already using Excalibur on land. Once Raytheon finishes testing, and gets export clearance from the American government, Excalibur could be looking at a large potential export marke




http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2369

quote:

Raytheon unveils Excalibur with dual-mode guidance
New precision munition will protect against swarming boat threats
PARIS, June 20, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has initiated an internally funded program to enhance its combat-proven 155mm Excalibur GPS-guided projectile with a new guidance and navigation unit (GNU) with a semi-active laser (SAL) end-game targeting capability. Addition of the SAL seeker will allow the munition to attack moving targets, attack targets that have re-positioned after firing, or change the impact point to avoid casualties and collateral damage.

"No other gun-launched GPS-guided artillery round is as precise as Excalibur, which in its current design gives one the ability to hit within 4 meters of the target 90 percent of the time," said Kevin Matthies, Excalibur program director for Raytheon Missile Systems. "Now we're ready to take this to the next level, giving the warfighter the ability to not only re-target the munition in flight, but leverage Excalibur's maneuverability to use the pinpoint precision of a semi-active laser seeker to hit targets on the move."

This new Excalibur variant using SAL guidance paves the way for GPS-guided Excalibur Ib customers to upgrade their Excalibur Ib guidance and navigation units with a GPS/SAL capability. Recent tests of the SAL seeker have demonstrated the robustness of the design in a severe gun-firing environment.

In addition to 155mm artillery land forces worldwide, the GPS/SAL capability will be available for both 155mm and 5-inch (127mm) naval guns to address moving targets on land and at sea. Counter-swarming boat capability will be the prime focus of the at-sea moving target capability using a high-firing rate, large caliber, affordable munition that can be fired from land or sea platforms. The transition to the naval 5-inch configuration is easily made as the existing 155mm Excalibur Ib GNU design also fits in a 127mm projectile body.

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Post #: 232
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 2:38:33 PM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlmightyTallest

with a semi-active laser (SAL) end-game targeting capability



There you go. IR is still no-go since it's still easily jammed with hoard of chaffs from naval targets.

However, what guiding them since they're use laser as destination? Gun-launched Drones? AEWs?


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Post #: 233
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 2:43:00 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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From this video at IDEX 2015, apparently Millimeter Wave radar is one seeker option for the naval N5

https://vimeo.com/120281338

As you mentioned, the laser guided version is mentioned that it can be used over the horizon with UAV's and other off board platforms providing the laser designation.

IR is not easily jammed unless the seeker is a primitive IR one. The new focal planar array and dual band seekers that can actually distinguish the target with enough resolution and have algorithms to ignore the signature of a flare plume already exist. Aim-9x is an early example.

https://youtu.be/4g4_jzqBJnA

Paper describing the flare rejection process of more advanced IR detectors: http://tti-ecm.com/uploads/resources_technical/expendable%20countermeasure%20effectiveness%20against%20imaging%20infrared%20guided%20threats%20(ewci%202012).pdf


quote:

Imaging systems can extract much more information from a scene than previous generations of seekers. This inherent
capability has made nearly all existing flare types unsuitable for aerial platform protection against imaging threats. An
imaging seeker using a gated-video tracker ignores the presence of point source flares as they are most-likely deployed
outside of the gated perimeter. A correlation tracker is also immune to point source flares by discriminating its size,
shape and aspect ratio4
. Most 2nd and 3rd generations seekers (and likely 4th generation imaging sensors) are equipped
with IR Counter-Countermeasures (IRCCMs) that discriminate between the target and the flares based on their relative
motion, spectral signature and intensity rise-time. Several IRCCM techniques discussed in the open-literature13,14 are
summarized below.


< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 10/2/2015 4:07:44 PM >

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Post #: 234
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 3:10:11 PM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlmightyTallest

with a semi-active laser (SAL) end-game targeting capability



There you go. IR is still no-go since it's still easily jammed with hoard of chaffs from naval targets.

However, what guiding them since they're use laser as destination? Gun-launched Drones? AEWs?




Does chaff work against IR...at least my understanding of chaff.

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Post #: 235
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 3:15:54 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Chaff works against various radar, or radar seekers but IR is a light spectrum and presents different problems.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 10/2/2015 4:16:40 PM >

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Post #: 236
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 3:20:05 PM   
wild_Willie2


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A millimeter wave seeker in a 5" shell would make the entire concept of the LCS as a fleet defense against FAC's obsolete. Slam a 5" gun on that thing (not that it can carry one) and it doesn't need a surface warfare module anymore.

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 10/2/2015 6:14:58 PM >


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Post #: 237
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 3:30:29 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Yea, it's a very interesting development. You can see there's still a real challenge getting a MMW or a combined GPS/Laser seeker on a slimmed down naval 5" variant of the weapon though. In time I'm sure they might be able to get the size of that kind of seeker to a smaller gun if there's a market for it.

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Post #: 238
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 5:01:02 PM   
Dysta


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It will be utterly interesting to see a frigate/destroyer achieved 100% hit from a 'tiny' barrel of deck gun, compare to massive tubes of god from Iowa and Yamato that could deliver hellish punch, but only less than 10% can score hit from a naval target.

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Post #: 239
RE: Naval and Defense News - 10/2/2015 6:43:32 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Yea, I know what you mean, it's a real shift in thinking because in this case 5" naval guns can do many of the jobs it took large battleship guns to do, with far fewer rounds to achieve a hit.

Lockheed Martin has a proposal for a 65 nautical mile version of the Mk 45 5" guns as well using fire and forget sensor fusion.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/navy-5-inch-guided-projectile/mfc-navy-5-inch-guided-projectile-pc.pdf

And they are experimenting using the Mk 45 deck guns with the guided rail gun ammunition as seen in this report:

http://news.usni.org/2015/06/01/navy-researching-firing-mach-5-guided-round-from-standard-deck-guns


http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-guided-smart-shells-could-revolutionize-the-navys-1687408992


quote:

Raytheon is looking to do the same with the Navy's prolific five inch Mk45 deck gun. According to the manufacturer, with a smaller diameter non-spinning base and a smaller warhead, the Mk45's current range using standard shells, about 13 miles (the Mk45 mod 4, with its longer barrel offers a range of about 21 miles), can be tripled. This would give Excalibur N5 paired with the Mk45 deck gun a range of almost 40 miles, and possibly 60 miles when fired from the Mark 45 Mod 4 gun equipped ships.


quote:

Raytheon is already working on a laser guided version of the Excalibur which will be able to hit moving targets designated by troops on the ground or by unmanned or manned aircraft overhead. This opens up a whole new potential for naval fire support. The idea that a cruiser operating some fifty miles out to sea, having the ability to take out a single vehicle in a convoy or a small group of fighters walking down a street, with very little chance of unintended casualties, is game changing. Paired with unmanned aircraft, such as the Navy's MQ-8 Fire Scout, such a concept would allow for a ship to literally provide fire support for friendly forces while 'on the run,' not to mention taking out mobile high value targets in mere minutes after their initial detection.

The Excalibur N5 could also be utilized to a more lethal degree in roles that the Mark 45 gun system already fulfills, such as anti-air and anti-surface warfare. Eventually, the rounds could even be fitted with a millimeter wave radar or infrared seekers allowing for large barrages to be launched at small boat swarms long before they get within visual distance of the ship itself.



So when you think about that way, the 5" guided munition could be a lot more attractive of an option because it's range is basically similar to the Harpoon missiles, but with the advantage of higher speed, and lower cost per round.



< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 10/2/2015 8:11:38 PM >

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