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RE: What if mod - 4/14/2015 3:03:34 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Does anyone know why the Meteor wasn't sent to the Pacific?

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RE: What if mod - 4/14/2015 3:19:08 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		Touchy new technology engines with a poor service life, poor range, the air war was essentially already won with existing types, a history of trouble in tropical climates with other aircraft types (the Mosquito being the most severe), the lack of jets in Japanese service, a reluctance to put the most advanced weapons in a situation where they might fall into enemy hands and especially make their way into Russian hands, and probably a few other reasons I haven't thought of.

Bill

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Post #: 32
RE: What if mod - 4/14/2015 3:19:39 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		I thought the British used it mainly over friendly ground for fear of giving secrets to the enemy. At least that is what I recall.

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Post #: 33
RE: What if mod - 4/14/2015 4:04:58 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Ok thanks guys.

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Post #: 34
RE: What if mod - 4/14/2015 4:36:31 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The Meteor did go to the continent and was mostly used defensively, but was used for ground attack some.

Bill

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Post #: 35
RE: What if mod - 4/15/2015 10:49:47 PM   
TSCofield

 

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Status: offline 		I believe they might have put a couple of pocket battleships in the Pacific to start the war. The main purpose, as others have said, was commerce raiding with those ships. The were designed to outgun a typical British cruiser which was the standard colonial 'capital ship' of the time. At 28 knots they would have outrun any standard British Battleship of the period. The Brits would have been forced to place additional battlecruisers in Singapore to guard against these ships. It would have been a similar problem they faced in the WW2 early on with at Coronel. British 8 inch cruisers would have been outgunned easily by two of these ships working in tandem. Theoretically Germany could have put all three of them in the Pacific at the start of the war.

As for the war, it is forgotten that Hitler planned hostilities as early as 1938 over Czechoslovakia. While the war didn't occur like Hitler thought there was still plans in place. It is theoretically possible the Hitler would have sent more ships out prior to the commencement of hostilities. These ships could have been sent in 1938/39 and stuck around as a possible threat to the Brits if hostilities started. Just having them sailing from port to port in the Pacific would have given the Admiralty some sleepless nights.

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Post #: 36
RE: What if mod - 4/21/2015 7:11:09 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Still working on the mod. Well not for a few weeks but still thinking about it.

I have followed some of the comments posted above. I couldn't find any German AKEs. I have thought about putting CVL Bearn. I moved up the arrival dates for the two French BCs. They now start out on Dec 6. I am going to add BC Renown to the game. I am thinking of putting it in the Aussie waters with a CA and a DD squadron.

PI will get the A24s along with some fighter changes. One squadron will have P39s (this time with the tubrosuperchargers). The PI squadron gets some Lancers as an upgrade. These are the ones from the US squadron that changed to the P39. I am thinking this might help keep some of the surface raiders at bay.

I have been thinking of altering the Japanese some. I'm not sure what to do yet.


Any thoughts guys?

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Post #: 37
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 3:39:42 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Someone correct me if I am wrong. AV Langley had atleast one catapult, was she able to launch AC underway? The same question goes for Commandante Teste?

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Post #: 38
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 3:51:04 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Also does anyone have the BTD Destroyer or the AM Mauler in their mod?

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Post #: 39
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 4:04:02 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Someone correct me if I am wrong. AV Langley had atleast one catapult, was she able to launch AC underway? The same question goes for Commandante Teste?
warspite1

I did not think Langley could launch aircraft by 1941 but someone may be able to confirm.

According to Conways, Commandant Teste had 4 catapults for launching seaplanes (which were recovered via crane from the water). In 1939 she carried one squadron of torpedo carrying Latecoere 298 floatplanes and a squadron of Loire-Nieuport 130 flying boats (26 aircraft in all).


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Post #: 40
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 4:09:11 AM   
DOCUP


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Post #: 41
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 1:50:52 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Another few questions. Didn't the US try and sell a few ships to the Philippines? What happened to the guns from the scrapped warships in the 20s and 30s.

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Post #: 42
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 2:38:05 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP
Someone correct me if I am wrong. AV Langley had atleast one catapult, was she able to launch AC underway? The same question goes for Commandante Teste?

Yes, AV Langley had a catapult. She also spent some time with Scout Force (Air) Pac Fleet in 1938, so presumably could launch underway under prevailing doctrinal conditions.

Butt

Her catapult was of the type that BBs and CAs and whatever, had for launching their scout planes. It was not the hi-g steam version developed for the CVs. She wasn't limited to float planes, like the gun vessels, but with her half-deck, she was realistically limited to pretty lo-and-slo aircraft. I guess the bottom line is no high performance airplanes for Langley.

Same for the C'te Teste, except she had no landing deck; a seaplane tender, pure and simple. Back then, any big enough ship "could" launch a floatplane from a rail catapult, but it was AVs and such that had the gear and technique to recover them from the water while maintaining some degree of forward fleet progress.

Ciao. JWE



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Post #: 43
RE: What if mod - 4/24/2015 2:46:01 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Thanks Symon.

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Post #: 44
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 3:13:16 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		In my quest to learn new stuff. I have stumbled across the National Defense Act of 1395 for the Philippines. What if they would of let the Philippine's have a small navy. What ships would of been thrown their way? Maybe Sampson class DDs or Omaha CLs to make room for newer models. What about coastal defense ships?

< Message edited by DOCUP -- 4/26/2015 5:20:26 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 9:35:29 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The Philippines would sweep the Pacific of Europeans with a few Sampson class DDs in 1395

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Post #: 46
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 10:10:07 AM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		Question: Is it assumed that the German forces in the Pacific will have received any new aircraft, or other reinforcements, after '39?

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Post #: 47
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 10:55:47 AM   
wernerpruckner


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Status: offline 		I like the idea,
but I like to suggest another historical path.

No WW2 yet, no WW1 yet. Think back a few more years.

Lets say the Spanish-American War just happened (just 40 years later than in RL).
The tensions would be very high after the American Takeover of the PI and the purchase of the other Spanish Islands by the Germans.

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Post #: 48
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 2:58:30 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Wdolson: Yes the mighty Sampson.

Orm: If I remember that there was an agreement between Germany and Russia regarding the shipping via the northern route. I think one ship could travel this route at a time. So I figure a few supply trips by AMCs or such until operation Barbarossa begins.

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Post #: 49
RE: What if mod - 4/26/2015 10:11:02 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		What is everyone thoughts on haveing some of the Japanese and German AMCs at a dot base with the magic movement bonus on.

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Post #: 50
RE: What if mod - 4/27/2015 5:12:58 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Wdolson: Yes the mighty Sampson.

Orm: If I remember that there was an agreement between Germany and Russia regarding the shipping via the northern route. I think one ship could travel this route at a time. So I figure a few supply trips by AMCs or such until operation Barbarossa begins.

Then it might have been possible that a few Fw 200 Condor had been sent there to be used as scouts.

What if Germany went ahead and continued the development of the Do 217G and sent a squadron to the pacific? With control of the pacific possession and the possibility to send reinforcements there it might not be so farfetched that they gave a go ahead for the floatplane version.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/27/2015 6:14:07 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: What if mod - 4/27/2015 7:20:05 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Wdolson: Yes the mighty Sampson.

Orm: If I remember that there was an agreement between Germany and Russia regarding the shipping via the northern route. I think one ship could travel this route at a time. So I figure a few supply trips by AMCs or such until operation Barbarossa begins.

Then it might have been possible that a few Fw 200 Condor had been sent there to be used as scouts.

warspite1

What timescale is envisaged here? The FW-200 was not ready (in military form) by the outbreak of WWII in September 1939.


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Post #: 52
RE: What if mod - 4/27/2015 7:53:15 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Wdolson: Yes the mighty Sampson.

Orm: If I remember that there was an agreement between Germany and Russia regarding the shipping via the northern route. I think one ship could travel this route at a time. So I figure a few supply trips by AMCs or such until operation Barbarossa begins.

Then it might have been possible that a few Fw 200 Condor had been sent there to be used as scouts.

warspite1

What timescale is envisaged here? The FW-200 was not ready (in military form) by the outbreak of WWII in September 1939.


That is why I asked if the German forces in the Pacific would have received reinforcements after WWII begun in Europe.

IF USSR helped German transport ships use the route north of USSR then it would be in the realm of possibility that they helped rebase some aircraft to the pacific as well. If they could not be shipped in pieces to the Pacific.

So if USSR is considered to be of assistance getting German equipment to the Pacific I assume that the end date is somewhere around April '41.

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Post #: 53
RE: What if mod - 5/1/2015 5:54:44 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		American side of things.

With the German CBs in the Pacific and the Japanese CBs being built. America puts the Alaska class on the drawing board earlier and ultimately in the yard earlier. I have Alaska and Guam coming out around 6 to 7 months earlier. I am thinking since they are out of the yards sooner other ships can be moved into their place. Hawaii is in the BTS mod. I am thinking of taking it out. Putting in the Montana and having it come in late in the game. I'm not sure what the earliest she could of came in at in RL if she would of been given a priority. I am also thinking of moving up the Midway or FDR a few months.

I am going by the assumption Midway battle does not happen and it is a slug fest in the Pacific. I don't know how to go about the idea of the lucky carrier victories the Allies had in RL. These victories cause changes in production. IE some ships got priority others didn't some ships got canceled. In game terms some of these ships would of been built and seen action. Any ideas?

Yes the Montana, who doesn't have the boyhood dream of seeing her go toe to toe with the Yamato?

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Post #: 54
RE: What if mod - 5/9/2015 2:02:55 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Ok I ran a few test turns. When air combat happens I have no AC pictures pop up. I must of messed up my plane tops for both sides. I see them in the art file, even has the right name. What have I done and how do I fix it?

Another question. What if Japan had got the declaration of war in before the attack on Pearl. Would the extra hour or so helped any?

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Post #: 55
RE: What if mod - 5/11/2015 8:05:10 AM   
Orm


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quote:

Another question. What if Japan had got the declaration of war in before the attack on Pearl. Would the extra hour or so helped any?

I doubt that one or two hours would have made any difference.

But maybe someone could enlighten me on how fast a 'war alert' message could be delivered from Washington to the Pacific.

The Japanese message was not a 'formal declaration of war' as I understand it. Would the US Government have interpreted it as a war declaration?

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Post #: 56
RE: What if mod - 5/11/2015 2:27:18 PM   
ny59giants


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Americans - With this all going on, what would they have done with Wake and Guam to build them up?? Marine CD units, PBY group at each, fighter squadron (USN Buffaloes/Wildcats), Marine Rgt, and/or small 4 DDs SC TF at one or other. The USA would want to use the Pearl to Wake to Guam to Philippine pipeline as long as feasible, but have a safer one to go through SoPac - Line Islands to Pago Pago (increased assets like in RA/BTS) to Noumea to Horn Island up to Philippines.

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Post #: 57
RE: What if mod - 5/11/2015 3:10:56 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		NyGiants: I haven't thought of doing that much for Wake/Guam. Might be an idea. I flushed out the Marine CD units. I added an extra Bn of infantry and a platoon of tanks(this came from a website about the defense Bns). I do have the 8th Marines already moving towards Pago Pago. PBYs might be added. I have been kicking the idea of a better air pipeline thru SoPac. I'm not for sure where to pull the extra units from, to flush out all this. I will have to go and look around.

I have also been thinking about leaving just a token force at Hong Kong.

Orm: I wouldn't think much would of been done, but I have never heard of that question asked.

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Post #: 58
RE: What if mod - 5/11/2015 3:21:54 PM   
cdnice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Another question. What if Japan had got the declaration of war in before the attack on Pearl. Would the extra hour or so helped any?

I doubt that one or two hours would have made any difference.

But maybe someone could enlighten me on how fast a 'war alert' message could be delivered from Washington to the Pacific.

The Japanese message was not a 'formal declaration of war' as I understand it. Would the US Government have interpreted it as a war declaration?


It is an interesting question to consider but I don't really think an hour or two would have made a great difference based on the communication technology available at the time. I remember a part in Tora Tora I think it was that kind of covered how the messages were sent. A message was sent to Pearl but had to be sent by cable due to atmospherics messing with radio transmissions. This meant coding on one end, uncoding at the other end and delivery time of the message itself at HQ and then even out to the field. The what if's are endless for December 7th which is what makes it such an interesting topic still 74 years later.

Interesting concepts in your mod, I am following along with great interest.

< Message edited by cdnice -- 5/11/2015 4:23:40 PM >

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Post #: 59
RE: What if mod - 5/11/2015 3:35:14 PM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		"Racing the Sunrise Reinforcing America's Pacific Outpost, 1941-1942" by Glen Williford

This book was read by John 3rd and recommended to me by him. It goes into the pre and early war efforts by America to build up some of these bases and keep the Philippines supplied. The Americans usually had a CA or CL as convoy escorts and was fearful of any raiders. One of the reasons I say have a PBY group at some bases to keep an outlook for them. Good book, by the way.

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