RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J)

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 4:53:41 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Frank will be tough. Not sure which model(s).

Just checked. They are actually pretty alike all three models. Slight boost from stock which means it will be slightly worse to deal with.

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Post #: 31

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 4:57:03 PM

MrKane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you're using Symon's new numbers there are a few things that stand out immediately:

1. The George is tough. Much better than in stock, and that is going to surprise you! It did me.

2. The Hellcat is also better than stock, and so by mid-43 the Allies actually have a top notch fighter in numbers, so that's good for you (and me).

3. The P-40E-K are slightly better, with the K being a pretty decent fighter for late 42-43. Especially since there are a lot of A6M and Oscars around.

4. The P-39 does really well defensively.

5. The later Oscars and A6M that he'll undoubtedly go for ASAP are very good in the middle game, years before they would have been deployed.

After 43 I can't help you, but based on Nick's experience with Mr Kane using these airframe stats I don't want to see the Ki-83 or the Ki-94. The Frank 'r' might also be a beast.

All in all it feels pretty balanced by late 42. In early 42 though, the A6M rules and because of the reduction in numbers of PDU-off, you have almost nothing to fight with. As it should be! Pick your spots well!

Are you sure about the P40? When I look at the new stats compared to an old save (that I think is stock) the P40s are almost identical. Same speed, 2 more MVR but worse climb? P39 is also worse with a lot lower climb. But perhaps all planes had their climb lowered? Didn�t notice much difference with the Hellcat either? But I�m not sure what I�m comparing with. I think its stock.

Is there a thread somewhere detailing the new changes?

Regarding SLs I really hated it China. Retreats causing overstacking which then burns supply. Yuck. I remember on particular nasty incident NW of Sian where Tom caused three retreats the same turn. All retreated to the same hex. BAM. Zero supply. 3000 AV gone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Well, Nick and I were playing without Symon's new a/c data. Anyway, Ki-84r was my warhorse for most of time for offensive missions. Ki-43-IIc was my main defensive fighters till '45.
Ki-83 is great but expensive and with PDU-OFF your opponent can upgrade only 2-3 units to that model.
The final model for most of Japan air units is Ki-94-II witch is good as offensive weapon, but it does not fit to be defender due to low climb rate.

Please be advised that not only N1K1 is beast now, but the same story has happen to J2M, too.

Just looked at the George and Jack. Jeeezuuus.

P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

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Post #: 32

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 5:01:37 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

I only extensively played with it in my game against Erik. Sadly the max ALT for the K is only 29k. With Tojos sweeping from 31k Erik tore them to pieces.

With a max alt HR they might actually prove useful this time around.

(in reply to MrKane)

Post #: 33

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 5:03:25 PM

MrKane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Frank will be tough. Not sure which model(s).

Just checked. They are actually pretty alike all three models. Slight boost from stock which means it will be slightly worse to deal with.

You will meet a large amount of units equipped with Ki-84a, some of them will switch to Ki-84r but not all.
Ki-84b will be very rare plane, and he can have K-83 in the same time, no reason to rush it into production just to equip 1 or 2 units.

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Post #: 34

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 6:56:16 PM

aztez

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Good luck! Enjoy the journey!

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 10:30:43 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

I only extensively played with it in my game against Erik. Sadly the max ALT for the K is only 29k. With Tojos sweeping from 31k Erik tore them to pieces.

With a max alt HR they might actually prove useful this time around.

Yes, and with PDU-off they aren't fighting nearly as many of the Tojos either!

This is the main reason the P-40E feels better too I think, but it is rugged, and that may somehow come out more in the numbers here.

As someone once told me about SLs in China; "you have to prepare for retreats!" Not always entirely possible, but might be sometimes. It helps to create distractions that draw Japanese air away from China. Try losing most of India. That worked for me.

_____________________________

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Post #: 36

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/18/2015 10:40:55 PM

MrKane

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Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

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Post #: 37

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/19/2015 1:49:51 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

The IJ player should have cut the roads by the time this could happen. Prime reason to cut the roads, actually - prevent other units from getting in.

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Post #: 38

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/19/2015 2:11:04 AM

MrKane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

The IJ player should have cut the roads by the time this could happen. Prime reason to cut the roads, actually - prevent other units from getting in.

My opponent did it. However I walk through mountains, I as said it took me time, but if he will start now he can be there there before summer '42. ;)

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 39

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/19/2015 4:42:17 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
As someone once told me about SLs in China; "you have to prepare for retreats!" Not always entirely possible, but might be sometimes. It helps to create distractions that draw Japanese air away from China. Try losing most of India. That worked for me.

Haha, I�m pretty sure Olorin will go for Oz though. But it might have the same effect?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
My opponent did it. However I walk through mountains, I as said it took me time, but if he will start now he can be there there before summer '42. ;)

China usually crumbles around 4/42.

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Post #: 40

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/20/2015 7:42:45 AM

obvert

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When is lift off?

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/20/2015 8:21:30 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

When is lift off?

Not sure. Havn�t heard anything since Saturday but Olorin said he would start working on the 1st turn Tuesday (yesterday). So hopefully I can get it sometime during the weekend.

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Post #: 42

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/21/2015 6:21:01 AM

JocMeister

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Got an email from Olorin last night. He is about 30% done with the turn.

Can�t say I envy him! I�m pretty lazy and prefer to spread out the most boring tasks over the first 10 turns or so. Something you cannot do as the Japanese.

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Post #: 43

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/21/2015 6:41:22 AM

obvert

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Yep. Doing that turn right is a killer. There are things you can leave though, especially economically, but I get the sense he's a planner. That can get you in trouble on the Japanese side!

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Post #: 44

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/21/2015 7:13:07 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Yep. Doing that turn right is a killer. There are things you can leave though, especially economically, but I get the sense he's a planner. That can get you in trouble on the Japanese side!

I think he is pretty meticulous and thorough yes. Most likely that will get ME into trouble.

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Post #: 45

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/21/2015 9:15:24 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Yep. Doing that turn right is a killer. There are things you can leave though, especially economically, but I get the sense he's a planner. That can get you in trouble on the Japanese side!

I think he is pretty meticulous and thorough yes. Most likely that will get ME into trouble.

Ha! Well, he'll spend a lot of time destroying you then!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/21/2015 10:55:21 AM

JocMeister

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Its his time to spend!

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Post #: 47

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 5:22:47 AM

JocMeister

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PDU OFF
______________________________________________________________________________

I learned some valuable lessons last time around with PDU OFF which I�ll try not to repeat. Playing with PDU ON for so long certainly makes you develop some bad habits. The biggest thing with PDU OFF is undoubtedly:

-You can�t downgrade.

Might not sound like a biggie but its a massive change from PDU ON. It makes planning absolutely essential. First of all you need to make sure you don�t upgrade out from a model you want to use. Sounds easy? Not really as I learned the hard way last time. I upgraded my way out of the SDB-2 line with the only 2 squadrons that could use them basically wasting 50 good DBs. I almost upgraded away the P38E. Only one squadron can use it and I almost upgraded it to the P40. If I had I could never have used the "Es".

It also forces you to plan ahead. What goes where. In my game vs Tom most P40s ended up in OZ where there was very heavy fighting. This quickly depleted the pools. I had a good number of P39s in the pool but they were mostly in India and CENTPAC. With PDU ON I would simply have switched the P40s to P39s and 2-3 turns later everything would have been ready to go. With PDU OFF I have to MOVE them there. Bah!

So this time I�ll try to diversify the planes a bit. Mix them up and don�t lump models in the same theater. That means I�ll possibly will split up the FGs. Have to look into that a bit more. Interestingly I found a FS of the 15th FG that will fly P40Es until they upgrade to the P51D in 44/11.

Previously "worst case" I have found was a P39 squadron that didn�t upgrade until 3/44.

Which leads me to the next thing. Some squadrons will be flying outdated models for quite some time. But I can�t just upgrade everything as soon as I can or I�ll end up with thousands of unusable planes in the pool. With PDU ON these were simply used in restricted training squadrons. No longer possible! Setting up a training program is a lot harder with PDU OFF.

It will also slow down combat considerably. With PDU ON if a squadron was annihilated in combat you simply downgraded them and then upgraded them to the same model instantly filling out the squadron. As you can�t do that with PDU OFF you will actually have to wait for the 12 planes/week. I predict this will severely slow down combat all over the map and we will see a more realistic pace of combat. A few days of intense fighting followed by a couple a weeks of R&R.

It takes some getting used to and here I have a slight edge over Olorin. Its a completely different mindset from PDU ON and will take him a while to adjust.

Looking forward to seeing a diverse and very different air war.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 5/22/2015 6:23:10 AM >

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 5:47:52 AM

rroberson

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Looking forward to this myself.

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 7:39:32 AM

obvert

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Those are great observations and close to my experience as Allies with PDU-off. The pace of ops has certainly been accurate, slowing to allow for these replenishments. As the game goes on and the Japanese use more service 3 fighters, this could be a very useful thing to consider in planning ops. Only limited sweeps and forays to damage and wear out Georges, Franks, and Jacks, then a blitz of ops to overwhelm the understrength defenders.

This also plays into organization of USAAF bomber groups, as the upgrades are all over the map there, with some 2E upgrading to 4E, some only to limited airframes (like the B-17F or the B-25G) for long periods, and some to late upgrades to better airframes from a very early model (B-18 Bolo to B-24J).

It's a much more fun air war but I found myself really looking at stats and considering airframes for different purposes daily. Can the P-36 fly adequate CAP while P-40K sweep? What has long enough range to escort bombers early (not much)? Since there are few P-38s of any kind early thanks to the restricted CONUS groups, what else can sweep at distance (Chinese Lancers!!

). How many groups can you use if you need them fro 6 months? (only one!)

It's been fun, and I expect a lot of airframe and upgrade path talk here soon!

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/22/2015 8:40:18 AM >

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 8:18:43 AM

Encircled

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My game with Comsolut is at the end of Feb '43 with PDU-off and the pace of operations is far more realistic.

I'm playing the Empire, and I have learnt to love the Oscar!

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 8:57:20 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
It's been fun, and I expect a lot of airframe and upgrade path talk here soon!

Its sure will be! Havn�t really looked into the bomber groups yet as I never got beyond the B17E in my game with Tom. Not looking forward to working that mess up. I found USN/USMC DB upgrades to be a complete mess too.

Loved the fact that you used Mowhawks and Boomerangs in combat! I will try and find a use for everything as well.

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Post #: 52

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 8:59:10 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

My game with Comsolut is at the end of Feb '43 with PDU-off and the pace of operations is far more realistic.

I'm playing the Empire, and I have learnt to love the Oscar!

That sounds really promising. I�m still confident that PDU OFF is the war forward for AE. Its the way the game is meant to be played and it solves a lot of the headaches introduced with PDU ON as I mention in my earlier post.

(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 53

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 9:20:53 AM

Encircled

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I think it will actually give a shrewd Japanese player a chance to be on the offensive for longer as well.

We started with the May '42 start, and I'm naturally very cautious (maybe I play the wrong side!) but with solid early conquests, good industrial management and some good fooling of Allied Signit, you could be able to catch the allies in the wrong place with the wrong planes.

It really highlights the shortage of Allied Pools as well.

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Post #: 54

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 9:32:23 AM

JocMeister

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Early Allied Plans
______________________________________________________________________________

I read Olorins AAR again lat night. While I followed both his and Michael's AAR it was a long time ago and I needed a refresher. Olorin really made a splendid job in Western OZ. That counter attack was just brilliant. I think poor Micheal lost 6 IDs + loads of support in that OP. Have to watch out for that kind of things.

I�m 90% certain Olorin will go for Oz again. So I�ll plan accordingly for that. If he goes elsewhere I will have to adjust things as best as I can. Not too worried about losing Oz entirely. If the allied player plans accordingly and start building forts in Sydney and Melbourne (HB terrain) I�m pretty certain its beyond Japanese capabilities to dislodge 1000+ AV. When Tom landed in OZ I already had forts at 5-6 and around 1000 AV in both cities.

And contrary to other Allied players I couldn�t care less about Perth. I never understood the obsession with it. Its nice to have but so are many places. I won�t break myself defending Western OZ. But I certainly won�t give it up for free.

Skimming through my own AAR I also realized I carry a major flaw over from game to game. I seem to have developed some kind of unhealthy obsession with SOPAC.

That I have to deal with and I hope you guys will let me know if I slip into old habits!

My game with Tom showed that while the allies can defend well enough its very, very, VERY hard this early to operate a big fleet deep in SOPAC. I was struggling for fuel and was more or less completely out at times.

I�m sure Olorin has read my old AARs and he has no doubt gotten a pretty good picture of my usual openings. So I�m going to try and do something completely different this time around. At least something very unlike my usual "style" and something I havn�t done before. I have a rough idea on how to really shake things up in mid/late 42. More on that as the game develops. I depends quite a bit on how Olorin opens up and how much he commits. In his AAR he always seemed to keep a decent reserve force with a couple of IDs which could undo my plans. I�m hoping SIGINT can keep me up to date.

Btw, place your bets on where Olorin hits with his CVs! He can only do one port CV strike according to our HRs. I�m 95% sure he will hit Manila with most of the KB. MKB will stick around Singers and keep Force Z in check.

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RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 9:43:08 AM

JocMeister

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China
______________________________________________________________________________

After many games and lots and lots of knowledge I came up with a solid infallible plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlDZPYzfm4

I�ll expect to last into March or April 42 before everything crumbles. Everything past that is a victory.

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Post #: 56

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 9:56:18 AM

MrKane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

China
______________________________________________________________________________

After many games and lots and lots of knowledge I came up with a solid infallible plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlDZPYzfm4

Well I must say it. This it is very ambition plan

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 57

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 10:49:38 AM

ny59giants

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Hopefully, this is not your mindset...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcUyhoxTg

Slightly OT - Is this game being played with Symon's last OOB changes for Dutch, Philippines, and Australia?? You will know by looking at Allied side and see almost NO full Australian divisions be available.

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Post #: 58

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 12:45:55 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Well I must say it. This it is very ambition plan

It took years of research and will require a tremendous amount of skill to pull off. But we shall try!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Hopefully, this is not your mindset...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcUyhoxTg

Slightly OT - Is this game being played with Symon's last OOB changes for Dutch, Philippines, and Australia?? You will know by looking at Allied side and see almost NO full Australian divisions be available.

One of the best songs ever written!

I have no clue about the OOB changes. Downloaded straight from DBB site! I�ll check it out tonight.

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Post #: 59

RE: Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Olorin (J) - 5/22/2015 1:32:42 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Well I must say it. This it is very ambition plan

It took years of research and will require a tremendous amount of skill to pull off. But we shall try!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Hopefully, this is not your mindset...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcUyhoxTg

Slightly OT - Is this game being played with Symon's last OOB changes for Dutch, Philippines, and Australia?? You will know by looking at Allied side and see almost NO full Australian divisions be available.

One of the best songs ever written!

I have no clue about the OOB changes. Downloaded straight from DBB site! I�ll check it out tonight.

Don't forget the ultimate parody:

https://vimeo.com/55624839

More Cow Bell!!!

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