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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 2:16:15 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I am new to the game, but I start by stockpiling the Garrison units AND the CD guns which immobilize units. That way, an upgrade at a bad position will not lock a unit in place.

Thank you for the information on upgrading devices.

Nicely done on the air phase.

Instead of pulling the KB into port, he might unload the fuel from the tankers and load oilers.

Check to see if his fighters can relocate from Coal Harbor to both bases. Without checking, it might be that they can reach one but not the other, hence the need for both bases. If that is true, shut down the intermediate airfield if at all possible. Harass Cold Harbor if possible.

See if you can airdrop mines at night. That can also cause casualties and would be difficult to interdict. Any serious damage this far from a safe port could spell the end of that ship. Also, don't forget the constant PT boat attacks, even if all that they do is slow down the unloading process.

Consider concentrating your armor and mobile units to smash the smaller invasion while infantry units move so they can invest the other captured base. When you move into the second captured base, consider including some CD guns IF they will bombard any enemy shipping there. Don't forget to include AA units as well.

Be on guard for paradrops from Santa Ana to other bases, even if they just slow down the movement for your strategically moving reinforcements. If necessary, air transfer even small detachments to bases that are in danger and are empty.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 2461
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 3:28:12 AM   
tiemanjw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Found this in the patch notes.

40. After 6 months, an expired pooled device (squad or engineer type) will slowly convert to the upgraded version; if Japan, obsolete devices will revert to the raw materials


Also, "squad" type devices returned to the pool will automatically upgrade as well. So once you get 91 of them, you can split a USA division in 3, and each will upgrade...then recombine. Basically, when you are doing upgrades (as opposed to replacements) Squad devices never go down in the pools.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 2462
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 4:31:35 AM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Found this in the patch notes.

40. After 6 months, an expired pooled device (squad or engineer type) will slowly convert to the upgraded version; if Japan, obsolete devices will revert to the raw materials


Also, "squad" type devices returned to the pool will automatically upgrade as well. So once you get 91 of them, you can split a USA division in 3, and each will upgrade...then recombine. Basically, when you are doing upgrades (as opposed to replacements) Squad devices never go down in the pools.



While your post is correct, it does not answer what happens to obsolete squad devices. Joc has about 300 of them.

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 2463
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 4:36:19 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Why don't you just disband a dozen or so air groups in other theaters? You will have the aircraft to flush out some of your new squadrons in about a week or less. Certainly you must have a lot of squadrons in other theaters that are idle. Yes, you will lose the units for six months and be putting aircraft in restricted squadrons but I think the opportunity to crush the Japanese would more than compensate for this.

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Post #: 2464
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 5:06:47 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Found this in the patch notes.

40. After 6 months, an expired pooled device (squad or engineer type) will slowly convert to the upgraded version; if Japan, obsolete devices will revert to the raw materials


Also, "squad" type devices returned to the pool will automatically upgrade as well. So once you get 91 of them, you can split a USA division in 3, and each will upgrade...then recombine. Basically, when you are doing upgrades (as opposed to replacements) Squad devices never go down in the pools.



While your post is correct, it does not answer what happens to obsolete squad devices. Joc has about 300 of them.

The new devices are just the old ones with some new equipment. The old ones get used up creating the new ones.

_____________________________

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(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 2465
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 5:09:53 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Another way to get aircraft is to move air units that have damaged aircraft. Move the unit to another airbase where the fragment can't rail to it, then disband the fragment. You should get the airplanes into your stockpile after they are repaired. That way, you can still have the air unit still on the map to train pilots. If the fragment is at a base with another air unit with that type of airplane, the damaged planes will then go to that air unit that is there. At least it works for non-permanently restricted air units.

If you have air units with reserves, you can also return those to the pool.

Disbanded air units usually return in 60 to 120 days at the national base.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2466
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 5:27:37 AM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Found this in the patch notes.

40. After 6 months, an expired pooled device (squad or engineer type) will slowly convert to the upgraded version; if Japan, obsolete devices will revert to the raw materials


Also, "squad" type devices returned to the pool will automatically upgrade as well. So once you get 91 of them, you can split a USA division in 3, and each will upgrade...then recombine. Basically, when you are doing upgrades (as opposed to replacements) Squad devices never go down in the pools.



While your post is correct, it does not answer what happens to obsolete squad devices. Joc has about 300 of them.

The new devices are just the old ones with some new equipment. The old ones get used up creating the new ones.


Last post on this. Joc has 300 1942 rifle squads. His units have all updated to 1942 rifle squads. Explain how you change 1942 squads with 1942 squads and get squad updates to 1943 rifle squads? You can not "update" a squad device with the same device.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 2467
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 1:12:32 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		BillBrown, I thought you were referring to the update of the 1942 squads to 1943 squads while still in the pools?

When he updates the ones in his units from the pools there are 1942 squads (the "obsolete device") put back in the pools but within the pools upgrading the 1942 squad to 1943 version does not create a leftover obsolete device - n'est ce pas?

If you are referring to another batch of 300 obsolete devices I am not sure what it is.

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Post #: 2468
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 4:19:16 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Found this in the patch notes.

40. After 6 months, an expired pooled device (squad or engineer type) will slowly convert to the upgraded version; if Japan, obsolete devices will revert to the raw materials


Also, "squad" type devices returned to the pool will automatically upgrade as well. So once you get 91 of them, you can split a USA division in 3, and each will upgrade...then recombine. Basically, when you are doing upgrades (as opposed to replacements) Squad devices never go down in the pools.



While your post is correct, it does not answer what happens to obsolete squad devices. Joc has about 300 of them.


Agreed... I just wanted to point out you don't need to worry about which unit to upgrade (for squads only). Once you have enough new ones, the upgrade is basically free.
The old ones in the pool (the 300 or so) will behaive as you say.
He cant update today...but he doesn't need to wait long until production gives him enough new '43 devices such that he can quickly upgrade all his infantry.
Just make sure you "stockpile" non squad devices that may upgrade that you don't have enough for all 3 division components (like the 57mm AT). Ask me how I know that one!


< Message edited by tiemanj -- 6/20/2016 4:27:26 PM >

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 2469
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 4:33:50 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks guys! Didn´t know about the 6th month delay. Makes sense though.

Still no turn from Jeff. If I get it tonight I´ll prioritize to get the turn back from him before updating the AAR. Might not have time for both.


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Post #: 2470
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 7:01:02 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
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Status: offline 		Airlosses Day 2
_____________________________________________________________________________

This is even better then expected. Losses are inflated of course but probably around 60 Zeroes shot down. I think all of those are from KB. Good day!

Jeff had indeed moved KB to the Santa Ana hex. I don´t think he had done so to intentionally hinder strikes from flying though. But it sucks for me because it means I stand very little chance of getting strikes to fly against the beachhead.

My airfields are still not operational behind LA and I don´t dare keep them at LA for another day. I´ll fly the LBA strike planes back to SF for now and settle for sweeps tomorrow. Don´t want to fly them off smaller AFs without enough support and AirHQ.

Not a perfect day but certainly a blow to KB if it was indeed KB planes.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2471
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 7:41:59 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

I´ll fly the LBA strike planes back to SF for now and settle for sweeps tomorrow.
Can you transfer some to San Diego instead? How soon will you be able to operate from Mojave or Bakersfield?

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Post #: 2472
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 7:55:48 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

I´ll fly the LBA strike planes back to SF for now and settle for sweeps tomorrow.
Can you transfer some to San Diego instead? How soon will you be able to operate from Mojave or Bakersfield?


Its only a level 7 AF and I neglected to top off with AS. So I can´t launch a full strike from there. In hindsight I should have built up and prepared at least March Field or Bakersville. But I honestly didn´t expect this although I semi prepared for it. Hindsight is always a...

In good news though I decided on a course of action for the West Coast and I´m even more positive now. Its a pretty darn good plan if I might say so!

All I need is for SD to last 2 or 3 attacks. I don´t know if I put too much faith in the forts though. My experience with level 9 forts in clear terrain is...absolutely zero.


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Post #: 2473
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 8:21:25 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

All I need is for SD to last 2 or 3 attacks. I don´t know if I put too much faith in the forts though. My experience with level 9 forts in clear terrain is...absolutely zero.
In order to capture a base the attacker needs combat odds greater than the fortification level. So the first Japanese attack would have to get to 10:1 odds to have a chance of capturing San Diego. Even if reduced to Lvl 6, which would take at least two "successful" attacks by the Japanese, they would need a 7:1 attack. I doubt they can get odds that high once you have gotten all of your emergency response air force units in place. You should have ample opportunity to launch ground strikes on his LCUs moving from Santa Ana to San Diego in clear terrain. The disruption levels for the Japanese should be sufficient to cause delays in his ability to attack with full effectiveness.

_____________________________

Never trust a man who's ass is wider than his shoulders.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2474
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 9:00:04 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline 		What CD guns are in LA / SD... I've seen 16" battery fortifications at point Loma, and I can't imagine LA having less. My experience with those monsters is that you probably want him to bombard LA. Would it be so bad to keep flying from there? A few destroyed ac many damaged (that can be railed out), a bunch of sunk cruisers, destroyers and damaged battleships a loooooooong way from repair.

(in reply to JocMeister)
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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 9:17:26 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

All I need is for SD to last 2 or 3 attacks. I don´t know if I put too much faith in the forts though. My experience with level 9 forts in clear terrain is...absolutely zero.
In order to capture a base the attacker needs combat odds greater than the fortification level. So the first Japanese attack would have to get to 10:1 odds to have a chance of capturing San Diego. Even if reduced to Lvl 6, which would take at least two "successful" attacks by the Japanese, they would need a 7:1 attack. I doubt they can get odds that high once you have gotten all of your emergency response air force units in place. You should have ample opportunity to launch ground strikes on his LCUs moving from Santa Ana to San Diego in clear terrain. The disruption levels for the Japanese should be sufficient to cause delays in his ability to attack with full effectiveness.



Yes, but they can reduce the forts one level per turn even with 1:47 billion odds as long as they have combat engineers in the attack.

On the plus side, unless he damages and keeps damaged the airfield or port the forts can be rebuilt.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 6/20/2016 9:21:20 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/20/2016 11:04:54 PM   
poodlebrain

 

Posts: 392
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

All I need is for SD to last 2 or 3 attacks. I don´t know if I put too much faith in the forts though. My experience with level 9 forts in clear terrain is...absolutely zero.
In order to capture a base the attacker needs combat odds greater than the fortification level. So the first Japanese attack would have to get to 10:1 odds to have a chance of capturing San Diego. Even if reduced to Lvl 6, which would take at least two "successful" attacks by the Japanese, they would need a 7:1 attack. I doubt they can get odds that high once you have gotten all of your emergency response air force units in place. You should have ample opportunity to launch ground strikes on his LCUs moving from Santa Ana to San Diego in clear terrain. The disruption levels for the Japanese should be sufficient to cause delays in his ability to attack with full effectiveness.



Yes, but they can reduce the forts one level per turn even with 1:47 billion odds as long as they have combat engineers in the attack.

On the plus side, unless he damages and keeps damaged the airfield or port the forts can be rebuilt.
All those low odds attacks cost men, materials and supplies. And the first casualties among the men will be many of the combat engineers needed to reduce the forts.

My concern from watching events is the inability to keep airpower in the region. The target rich environment is at its most vulnerable. There is a strong likelihood that LBA fighters will be making an appearance soon. If that happens then the role of the KB can convert from totally defensive to offensive. There are 5 airfields that would have been easy to secure that should all be Lvl 7 or larger. There should be literally hundreds of aircraft with strikes plotted on Japanese shipping and ground forces on a daily basis.


_____________________________

Never trust a man who's ass is wider than his shoulders.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 3:48:50 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

What CD guns are in LA / SD... I've seen 16" battery fortifications at point Loma, and I can't imagine LA having less. My experience with those monsters is that you probably want him to bombard LA. Would it be so bad to keep flying from there? A few destroyed ac many damaged (that can be railed out), a bunch of sunk cruisers, destroyers and damaged battleships a loooooooong way from repair.


From my experience CD guns are completely useless against bombardments. They only really matter against landings.

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 2478
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 4:15:58 PM   
poodlebrain

 

Posts: 392
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From: Comfy Chair in Baton Rouge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

What CD guns are in LA / SD... I've seen 16" battery fortifications at point Loma, and I can't imagine LA having less. My experience with those monsters is that you probably want him to bombard LA. Would it be so bad to keep flying from there? A few destroyed ac many damaged (that can be railed out), a bunch of sunk cruisers, destroyers and damaged battleships a loooooooong way from repair.


From my experience CD guns are completely useless against bombardments. They only really matter against landings.
Section 6.8 of the rules states, "Every time a TF enters an enemy base hex, enemy coastal guns in the hex may fire at the ships in the TF. This can occur whether the TF has the enemy base hex as its destination, or is passing through the hex on its way to another location." I don't think it is common for CD guns to respond unless an amphibious assault is occurring, but it should be possible. I know I've seen CD guns cause massive damage to TFs trying to force narrow straits, e.g. Bataan.

Why shore batteries do not fire is a mystery to me. I would think that ships would have to alter their paths to avoid even harassing fire, and that would reduce the effectiveness of any shore bombardment. I think there might be a glitch that prevents the CD units from firing based on the shortest ranged weapon in each unit. As such a CD unit with 14" or 16" guns don't fire because the guns with less range can't reach the targets.


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Post #: 2479
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 4:22:35 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

What CD guns are in LA / SD... I've seen 16" battery fortifications at point Loma, and I can't imagine LA having less. My experience with those monsters is that you probably want him to bombard LA. Would it be so bad to keep flying from there? A few destroyed ac many damaged (that can be railed out), a bunch of sunk cruisers, destroyers and damaged battleships a loooooooong way from repair.


From my experience CD guns are completely useless against bombardments. They only really matter against landings.


Well, this depends on the armor of the attacking vessels and the minimum specified range of the bombardment plus the caliber of the CD guns, fatigue, commander..etc. etc. I have definitely seen DD's take damage or even a CA lose a main battery to damage. I you stand off 4000 yds or so and use BB's they are almost invulnerable.
It makes perfect sense that a maneuvering bombardment force is much less vulnerable than an amphibious force trying to disembark. I have seen mine sweeper TF's obliterated without a trace by CD guns.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 6/21/2016 4:27:03 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 4:24:28 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

All I need is for SD to last 2 or 3 attacks. I don´t know if I put too much faith in the forts though. My experience with level 9 forts in clear terrain is...absolutely zero.
In order to capture a base the attacker needs combat odds greater than the fortification level. So the first Japanese attack would have to get to 10:1 odds to have a chance of capturing San Diego. Even if reduced to Lvl 6, which would take at least two "successful" attacks by the Japanese, they would need a 7:1 attack. I doubt they can get odds that high once you have gotten all of your emergency response air force units in place. You should have ample opportunity to launch ground strikes on his LCUs moving from Santa Ana to San Diego in clear terrain. The disruption levels for the Japanese should be sufficient to cause delays in his ability to attack with full effectiveness.



Yes, but they can reduce the forts one level per turn even with 1:47 billion odds as long as they have combat engineers in the attack.

On the plus side, unless he damages and keeps damaged the airfield or port the forts can be rebuilt.
All those low odds attacks cost men, materials and supplies. And the first casualties among the men will be many of the combat engineers needed to reduce the forts.

My concern from watching events is the inability to keep airpower in the region. The target rich environment is at its most vulnerable. There is a strong likelihood that LBA fighters will be making an appearance soon. If that happens then the role of the KB can convert from totally defensive to offensive. There are 5 airfields that would have been easy to secure that should all be Lvl 7 or larger. There should be literally hundreds of aircraft with strikes plotted on Japanese shipping and ground forces on a daily basis.




The AI does this to me quite frequently in China and believe it or not rarely suffers catastrophic losses as a result.

Often the losses are so minimal it has me crying foul.

Obviously my 1:47 billion odds reference was an exaggeration, but I swear I have seen 1:700 odds attacks lower a fort and suffer only minimal losses.

Not saying a player would attempt this as his apprehension over huge losses would likely preclude it ever being tried.

AI games can produce results one would never see in head to head games.


_____________________________

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Post #: 2481
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 5:18:25 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

What CD guns are in LA / SD... I've seen 16" battery fortifications at point Loma, and I can't imagine LA having less. My experience with those monsters is that you probably want him to bombard LA. Would it be so bad to keep flying from there? A few destroyed ac many damaged (that can be railed out), a bunch of sunk cruisers, destroyers and damaged battleships a loooooooong way from repair.


From my experience CD guns are completely useless against bombardments. They only really matter against landings.


Well, this depends on the armor of the attacking vessels and the minimum specified range of the bombardment plus the caliber of the CD guns, fatigue, commander..etc. etc. I have definitely seen DD's take damage or even a CA lose a main battery to damage. I you stand off 4000 yds or so and use BB's they are almost invulnerable.
It makes perfect sense that a maneuvering bombardment force is much less vulnerable than an amphibious force trying to disembark. I have seen mine sweeper TF's obliterated without a trace by CD guns.

I sent BBs & CAs to bombard Pescadores and from 26000 yards out they took hits from the shore batteries (20 and 15.5 cm). There were a couple of hits on belt armour which did not penetrate, but most hit superstructure or destroyed a secondary/AA gun before hitting deck or belt armour. I assume radar or lack of it has some effect on ability to target/hit bombarding ships.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2482
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 5:19:55 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Why shore batteries do not fire is a mystery to me. I would think that ships would have to alter their paths to avoid even harassing fire, and that would reduce the effectiveness of any shore bombardment. I think there might be a glitch that prevents the CD units from firing based on the shortest ranged weapon in each unit. As such a CD unit with 14" or 16" guns don't fire because the guns with less range can't reach the targets.



There are special narrow strait rules that are covered in one of the appendices. In AI experiments I've seen CD guns in narrow straits gut passing TFs.

But my experience with bombardments matches Jocke's. I don't even consider CD when doing a bombardment, even against a naval fortress such as Truk.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/21/2016 5:43:51 PM >

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Post #: 2483
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 5:24:50 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Obviously my 1:47 billion odds reference was an exaggeration, but I swear I have seen 1:700 odds attacks lower a fort and suffer only minimal losses.

Not saying a player would attempt this as his apprehension over huge losses would likely preclude it ever being tried.

AI games can produce results one would never see in head to head games.



Yes, these attacks can happen. "(side) Assault reduces fortifications to X" is a message that can occur on any attack, but obviously you'll see it more often with better attack odds. Note that it says Assault, not engineers. It's the attack itself that reduces the forts, and it doesn't have to be a good attack to drop the forts.

The casualty numbers are only loosely related to the attack odds. The firepower and condition of the opposing units, plus some luck, is taken into account here. Also, there is a heavy degree of FOW in ground combat results.

Lastly, AI games can have different circumstances simply because of the way the AI works, but the results themselves would be identical with a PBEM/HTH game if the circumstances were identical.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2484
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 5:43:08 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Obviously my 1:47 billion odds reference was an exaggeration, but I swear I have seen 1:700 odds attacks lower a fort and suffer only minimal losses.

Not saying a player would attempt this as his apprehension over huge losses would likely preclude it ever being tried.

AI games can produce results one would never see in head to head games.



Yes, these attacks can happen. "(side) Assault reduces fortifications to X" is a message that can occur on any attack, but obviously you'll see it more often with better attack odds. Note that it says Assault, not engineers. It's the attack itself that reduces the forts, and it doesn't have to be a good attack to drop the forts.

The casualty numbers are only loosely related to the attack odds. The firepower and condition of the opposing units, plus some luck, is taken into account here. Also, there is a heavy degree of FOW in ground combat results.

Lastly, AI games can have different circumstances simply because of the way the AI works, but the results themselves would be identical with a PBEM/HTH game if the circumstances were identical.

Yes, an assault has to be made to drop forts, and the infantry are supposed to lead the assault with combat engineers using opportunities to demolish fortifications. But if there is not enough infantry to keep the enemy pinned down, the engineers will suffer greatly, and if there are not enough engineers to (with very good/aggressive leaders) to work on the forts, reduction of forts will be very slow or at high cost.

As many have said, the combat model seems to favour an attack at odds equal to or better than the fort level (infantry/tank assault values) before giving the engineers much chance of reducing the forts, with sustainable casualties.
There was a post a few months ago about an amphibious assault in which only combat engineers landed and shock attacked. They were wiped out.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 6/21/2016 5:45:59 PM >

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(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2485
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 6:35:27 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Why shore batteries do not fire is a mystery to me. I would think that ships would have to alter their paths to avoid even harassing fire, and that would reduce the effectiveness of any shore bombardment. I think there might be a glitch that prevents the CD units from firing based on the shortest ranged weapon in each unit. As such a CD unit with 14" or 16" guns don't fire because the guns with less range can't reach the targets.



There are special narrow strait rules that are covered in one of the appendices. In AI experiments I've seen CD guns in narrow straits gut passing TFs.

But my experience with bombardments matches Jocke's. I don't even consider CD when doing a bombardment, even against a naval fortress such as Truk.



hmmm... I've mostly seen them take a heavy toll on passing TFs and mine sweepers. I guess I've just been too timid to bombard. Perhaps I'll need to visit some love on Kobe and return the favor.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2486
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/21/2016 8:25:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

hmmm... I've mostly seen them take a heavy toll on passing TFs and mine sweepers. I guess I've just been too timid to bombard. Perhaps I'll need to visit some love on Kobe and return the favor.


Minesweepers for sure, but they have to stay to work. Bombardments are in and out, usually in the dark.

I'm in the middle of an invasion of Truk in my Lokasenna game, which is why this is top of mind. My YMS TFs sent in were crushed, as expected. They're single-use minesweepers. But I have 4 IDs-plus ashore and not one mine strike, so it was worth it. I've bombarded either two or three times at this point, slow BBs mostly, and the shore reaction has been a non-factor. BBs embedded with the landings took a lot of hits; I think BB Valiant took 43 in one turn. Truk CD has over 900 guns.

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(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 2487
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/22/2016 1:59:22 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

hmmm... I've mostly seen them take a heavy toll on passing TFs and mine sweepers. I guess I've just been too timid to bombard. Perhaps I'll need to visit some love on Kobe and return the favor.


Minesweepers for sure, but they have to stay to work. Bombardments are in and out, usually in the dark.

I'm in the middle of an invasion of Truk in my Lokasenna game, which is why this is top of mind. My YMS TFs sent in were crushed, as expected. They're single-use minesweepers. But I have 4 IDs-plus ashore and not one mine strike, so it was worth it. I've bombarded either two or three times at this point, slow BBs mostly, and the shore reaction has been a non-factor. BBs embedded with the landings took a lot of hits; I think BB Valiant took 43 in one turn. Truk CD has over 900 guns.


Well, they fired over 900 times. There definitely aren't 900 guns.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2488
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/22/2016 7:21:58 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Primary purpose of CD unit in hex is that it is a primary target for Naval Bombardment INSTEAD of your combat Infantry units! You can see CD unit with DIS at 90s while your IDs are at low numbers. Without CD unit, you will see your Infantry with much higher DISruption...

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(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2489
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/22/2016 4:02:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Well, they fired over 900 times. There definitely aren't 900 guns.


You're right. I looked back and each CR says "shots." Still a whole lot of guns.

For anyone contemplating landing at Truk, this is from one turn. Nineteen rounds of CD fire. As I said to Loka, them's SOME ops points:

1. Night Naval bombardment of Truk at 112,108 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

518 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Valiant, Shell hits 43, on fire
BB Mississippi, Shell hits 2
BB New Mexico, Shell hits 27, on fire
BB Idaho
BB Colorado, Shell hits 14

2. 703 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB California, Shell hits 29, on fire
BB Oklahoma, Shell hits 26, on fire
DD Hughes, Shell hits 2, on fire
AP Gen. T.H.Bliss, Shell hits 1
AKA Centarus, Shell hits 2
APA Storm King
APA La Salle, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Mustin
APA Sumter, Shell hits 1
APA Cambria

3. Pre-Invasion action off Truk (112,108) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

889 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Maryland, Shell hits 28, on fire
DD Eaton
DD Converse, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Gen. G.O.Squier, Shell hits 5
AP William Ward Burrows, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
SC PC-1078
SC PC-1077
APA Knox

4. Pre-Invasion action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

402 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
YMS-130, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Katoomba
AM Kapunda
AM Bowen
YMS-148
YMS-150
LST-30
LST-27
LST-31
LST-40
LST-34

5. Pre-Invasion action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

412 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCI(G)-77, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-79
SC PC-789
SC PC-779
LCI(G)-80
SC PC-782
SC PC-579
LCI(G)-78
LST-217
LST-471
LST-214
LST-218

6. Pre-Invasion action off Truk (112,108) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

993 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
CLAA San Diego, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Miller, Shell hits 1
DD Fullam, Shell hits 1
LCI-330
DD Haraden
LCI-83
LCI-75
LCI-216, Shell hits 1, heavy damage
SC PC-790
LCI-84
LCI-85


7. Pre-Invasion action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

389 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DMS Emmons
DMS Zane
APD Rathburne
APD Belknap
APD Overton
APD Goldsborough
APD Little
APD Manley

8. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

254 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DD Mustin
AP Gen. T.H.Bliss, Shell hits 8, heavy fires
BB California, on fire
BB Oklahoma, on fire
APA La Salle, Shell hits 5, on fire
AKA Centarus, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hughes, on fire
DE Neuendorf
APA Callaway
APA Cambri

9. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

235 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DD Eaton, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Chauncey, Shell hits 1, on fire
SC PC-1078
SC PC-1077
APA Knox

10. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

375 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
YMS-148, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
YMS-150
AM Katoomba
AM Kapunda
AM Bowen
LST-31
LST-30
LST-27

11. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

205 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCI(G)-78, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
SC PC-779
SC PC-789
SC PC-782
SC PC-579
LCI(G)-79
LCI(G)-80
LST-217
LST-214

12. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

382 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DD Miller, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Haraden, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Fullam, Shell hits 8, heavy fires
LCI-85, Shell hits 2, heavy damage
CLAA San Diego, on fire
LCI-219, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DE Duffy
LCI-75, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-84, Shell hits 2
SC PC-790
LCI-83

13. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

205 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DMS Emmons
DMS Zane
APD Rathburne
APD Belknap
APD Overton
APD Goldsborough
APD Little
APD Manley

14. nvasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

39 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AP Gen. T.H.Bliss
BB Oklahoma
APA La Salle
BB California
DD Hughes
AKA Centarus, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
APA Bolivar, Shell hits 3, on fire
APA Cambria

15. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
YMS-150, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-85
LST-82
LST-34
LST-31
LST-27
LST-30

16. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

42 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCI(G)-79, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
SC PC-579
LST-477
LST-470
LST-338
LST-217
LST-214
LST-218

17. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

18 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCI-217, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Haraden, heavy damage
LCI-84
CLAA San Diego
LCI-446
SC PC-790
LCI-526
LCI-402
LCI-333
LCI-330
LCI-83
LCI-218

19. Invasion Support action off Truk (112,108)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

48 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LSD White Marsh
AKA Andromeda, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
APD Manley
DMS Emmons
DMS Zane
APD Rathburne, Shell hits 3, on fire
APD Belknap
APD Overton
APD Goldsborough
APD Little

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The Moose

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2490
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