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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 12:37:23 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rio Bravo

Joc-

*clapping hands and motioning out the dancing girls*

Regarding Auto Victory, great job putting the Allies in a position to fight the war to the bitter end.

Best Regards,

-Terry


Thank you Terry.

This is my first game against a SCEN 2 Japan and I have done better then I expected. Its an unorthodox opening though that hasn´t been tried before. With some Japanese fine tuning it can possibly be turned into something really, really dangerous.

Not the path I would chose as Japan though.

(in reply to Rio Bravo)
Post #: 2821
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 1:46:32 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Surface battle!
_____________________________________________________________________________

I got the replay back within a few hours. Almost lazily ran it not expecting much...

JACKPOT!


quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near San Francisco at 209,89, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 11 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo
CVL Shoho, Shell hits 1
CVL Zuiho, Shell hits 43, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVL Ryuho, Shell hits 13, heavy fires
CVE Hosho, Shell hits 11, on fire
CA Chikuma
DD Mutsuki, Shell hits 3
DD Mikazuki
DD Kamikaze
DD Hatakaze, Shell hits 13, heavy fires


Allied Ships
CL Richmond
CL Raleigh
CL Detroit, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Strong
DD McCalla, Shell hits 1
DD Phelps, Shell hits 1
DD Farragut
DD Aylwin
DD Litchfield, Shell hits 1







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/29/2016 1:48:19 PM >

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Post #: 2822
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 1:49:33 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Sub attack!
_____________________________________________________________________________

I guess this would have been a little bit too much to ask after the opening...






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2823
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:02:24 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Surface battle!
_____________________________________________________________________________

Daybreak see another attack by the Allied CL force! This time though the Chikuma and escorts do a better job of screening the baby carriers. Still some good hits were landed!

quote:

Day Time Surface Combat, near San Francisco at 210,88, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo
CVL Shoho, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CVL Ryuho, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Hosho, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 7, on fire
DD Mutsuki, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Mikazuki
DD Kamikaze, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage


Allied Ships
CL Richmond, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Raleigh, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Detroit, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Strong, Shell hits 1
DD McCalla
DD Phelps, Shell hits 1
DD Farragut
DD Aylwin, Shell hits 1
DD Litchfield, Shell hits 2, on fire


Detroit took several 20cm hits and looks in very bad shape.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2824
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:03:59 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Sub attack!
_____________________________________________________________________________






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Post #: 2825
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:10:57 PM   
JocMeister

 

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LA
_____________________________________________________________________________

An allied bombardment here. Mostly to burn supply...Several Japanese divisions look really beat up.






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Post #: 2826
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:15:11 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

I know its often futile to hope for Japanese pools to run out but he has lost 343 planes during the last 6 days.
You will never exhaust Japanese pools against competent opposition. However, you can, and should, wreck every fighter unit, and benefit from the limitations on their ability to take replacements. Japan either has to fly depleted units, and those units will have high pilot fatigue and low morale, or concede air space. Since concession is to admit, and permit, defeat you can expect the Japanese to contest most air spaces, and this will ensure very few Japanese pilots will survive to gain high experience and skill levels as they will be in constant use flying from degraded units. Meanwhile, your pilots will be getting huge bumps in skills and experience which will just make the situation worse for the Japanese as the game progresses. Applying constant pressure will break the Japanese air forces, but it won't eliminate them. Quantitatively, the reduction will be limited to the replacement rate for aircraft, but qualitatively the reduction in effectiveness is where you will benefit most.

_____________________________

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:15:19 PM   
crsutton


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The thing is that when the Japanese players pulls a bold stunt like this in an attempt at auto victory and does not get it, then the game usually turns on them very quickly and defeat comes fast. Lowpe is overstretched and exposed at so many points now. Scen 2 gives the Japanese player more toys but is also extremely draining on resources. It is so easy to just burn through your resources so that come 1945 there is nothing left in the well. This was my experience in my last campaign-also a scen 2 game.

It was fun to watch him going for the West Coast. But I think he already knows that this one is over.

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Post #: 2828
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 2:15:55 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Mopping up
_____________________________________________________________________________

Port Blair is cleared out and more mopping up in India net me more VPs.

quote:

Ground combat at Port Blair (46,58)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 9864 troops, 62 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 679

Defending force 1605 troops, 13 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 11

Allied adjusted assault: 849

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 849 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)

Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2311 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 159 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 16 (16 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


quote:

Ground combat at Kohima (61,39)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 10625 troops, 126 guns, 30 vehicles, Assault Value = 333

Defending force 3877 troops, 38 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 83

Allied adjusted assault: 151

Japanese adjusted defense: 64

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Kohima !!!


Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), fatigue(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1385 casualties reported
Squads: 25 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 41 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 13 (8 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 5


Allied ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

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Post #: 2829
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 3:27:08 PM   
HansBolter


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Hip Hip Hooray for the Omaha's!

_____________________________

Hans


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 3:43:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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Kudos to Lowpe for trying something bold and entertaining. But, as Ross points out, when the wheels come off on an operation like this one, things do get ugly. Lowpe's going to have to fight against the natural tendency to lose interest. Watching replays in which carrier TFs get battered by surface combat TFs, while an army is threatened with utter destruction, isn't conducive to gaming pleasure. If things were going well - if Lowpe had taken LA and San Diego - he'd be flipipng turns like crazy now, no matter what's going on in his other game and real life. But it's incredibly hard to watch those wheels come off and maintain a reasonable level of motivation.

Someday we're going to see an elite-level Japanese player implement this strategy against a veteran but not-alert-enough Allied player. I think this strategy could work for auto victory, especially in one of the scenarios in which the IJ player gets lots of extra troops and ships.

In John III's game vs. NYGiants, he got off to a good enough start to pursue a strategy like this one. He took Alaska and Hawaii early on. But he just wasn't interested in pushing a West Coast/auto-victory strategy.

But I doubt this is a viable strategy in late '42 or early '43 if the Allied player has been building forts and has kept a decent garrison on the West Coast. I think the IJ player has to plan this from the outset and should strike the West Coast by late spring or early summer '42.

A relatively inexperienced Allied player would be in big doo-doo.

I'd like to see that "one of these days."

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/29/2016 3:44:44 PM >

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Post #: 2831
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 3:58:36 PM   
HansBolter


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That door swings both ways.

Consider how demoralized and disinterested an Allied player is likely to become once he loses San Diego.

While extreme go for broke strategies make for great entertainment for the peanut gallery, they rarely contribute to a an enjoyable gaming experience.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 2832
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 5:12:10 PM   
JocMeister

 

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To be honest losing SD wouldn´t trouble me THAT much. I would lose my patrols but that can to some extent be mitigated by using allied 4Es as patrols. In fact the moment he landed I switched around 60 allied pilots over from NavB to NavS. Its a blow but not much more.

Losing LA on the other hand with be...catastrophic. But again not crippling IMO. You would lose most (all?) of the P38 and and P51 production which would be a tremendous blow. But I think the allies could manage without it playing more defensively. P47s would still be around and so would Corsairs and Hellcats...


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Post #: 2833
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 5:16:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Kudos to Lowpe for trying something bold and entertaining. But, as Ross points out, when the wheels come off on an operation like this one, things do get ugly. Lowpe's going to have to fight against the natural tendency to lose interest. Watching replays in which carrier TFs get battered by surface combat TFs, while an army is threatened with utter destruction, isn't conducive to gaming pleasure. If things were going well - if Lowpe had taken LA and San Diego - he'd be flipipng turns like crazy now, no matter what's going on in his other game and real life. But it's incredibly hard to watch those wheels come off and maintain a reasonable level of motivation.

Someday we're going to see an elite-level Japanese player implement this strategy against a veteran but not-alert-enough Allied player. I think this strategy could work for auto victory, especially in one of the scenarios in which the IJ player gets lots of extra troops and ships.

In John III's game vs. NYGiants, he got off to a good enough start to pursue a strategy like this one. He took Alaska and Hawaii early on. But he just wasn't interested in pushing a West Coast/auto-victory strategy.

But I doubt this is a viable strategy in late '42 or early '43 if the Allied player has been building forts and has kept a decent garrison on the West Coast. I think the IJ player has to plan this from the outset and should strike the West Coast by late spring or early summer '42.

A relatively inexperienced Allied player would be in big doo-doo.

I'd like to see that "one of these days."


As you say I don´t think its doable this late. But an early landing in say March/April when the Allies are at their weakest and perhaps only level 3-4 forts...scary scary!

But personally I don´t think a move on the WC is the best use of Japanese assets. I´m not going to expand too much of that in case I ever get around to playing Japan.. But I think with a competent Japanese player in a SCEN 2 environment and the right opening achieving AV could be done with a pretty big degree of certainty.

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Post #: 2834
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 5:21:06 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Hip Hip Hooray for the Omaha's!


Indeed. I love those little buggers. Lots of TTs! Sadly I think the Detroit might be done for. She took a LOT of 20cm shells in that day engagement.

It certainly won´t be in vain though. If Shoho, Ryuho and Hosho is anything like Allied CVEs they are in a world of problems right now. Its a loooong way to PH and I´d be surprised if none of them joins Zuiho at the bottom of the sea.

Also very glad to report that the reign of Japanese DDs are now over. With the exception of poor Lichtfield (an old Clemson) our DDs did very well. Granted I cheated a little bit by throwing in DD Strong in the mix. A Fletcher with 74 EXP...

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/29/2016 5:24:14 PM >

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Post #: 2835
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 7:07:48 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rio Bravo

Joc-

*clapping hands and motioning out the dancing girls*

Regarding Auto Victory, great job putting the Allies in a position to fight the war to the bitter end.

Best Regards,

-Terry


I was just thinking the opposite - this is going to end rather quickly, IMO.

(in reply to Rio Bravo)
Post #: 2836
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 7:32:57 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I was just thinking the opposite - this is going to end rather quickly, IMO.


In my favor or Jeffs?

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Post #: 2837
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 7:42:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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He means in your favor.

For the Peanut Gallery reading both AARs (I was one of them) it was fascinating to watch this develop. Lowpe put alot of thought into this. He got alot of input from good players. But your fort building made it pretty clear that he was about to pick up a "tar baby" (something you pick up that you can't shake hold of). And it was really interesting to see your reaction: watching you monitor the intel, discount the possibility because it was such a crazy idea mainly because you were so well prepared and thus had very little concern, and then adjust your thinking as the impossible became reality.

I think all of us wish it could be a nip-and-tuck battle for the pure spectating fun, but not this time. It won't be fun to watch Lowpe reap the harvest he sewed, because it's going to be an ugly one (if I'm reading what's going on correctly).


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Post #: 2838
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 7:58:53 PM   
richlove


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Let's talk about the bitter end for a minute. Assume Lowpe loses all his troops - how catastrophic is that? I've never played Japan, so I don't have a sense of where they'd be deployed, or what they should be doing at this point of the game. How does that change if he gets half of the troops out? Is his fuel or supply use off the charts? What does that mean to the later game?


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Post #: 2839
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 8:01:40 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Kudos to Lowpe for trying something bold and entertaining. But, as Ross points out, when the wheels come off on an operation like this one, things do get ugly. Lowpe's going to have to fight against the natural tendency to lose interest. Watching replays in which carrier TFs get battered by surface combat TFs, while an army is threatened with utter destruction, isn't conducive to gaming pleasure. If things were going well - if Lowpe had taken LA and San Diego - he'd be flipipng turns like crazy now, no matter what's going on in his other game and real life. But it's incredibly hard to watch those wheels come off and maintain a reasonable level of motivation.

Someday we're going to see an elite-level Japanese player implement this strategy against a veteran but not-alert-enough Allied player. I think this strategy could work for auto victory, especially in one of the scenarios in which the IJ player gets lots of extra troops and ships.

In John III's game vs. NYGiants, he got off to a good enough start to pursue a strategy like this one. He took Alaska and Hawaii early on. But he just wasn't interested in pushing a West Coast/auto-victory strategy.

But I doubt this is a viable strategy in late '42 or early '43 if the Allied player has been building forts and has kept a decent garrison on the West Coast. I think the IJ player has to plan this from the outset and should strike the West Coast by late spring or early summer '42.

A relatively inexperienced Allied player would be in big doo-doo.

I'd like to see that "one of these days."
The lesson I've taken away from this game is that the West Coast, particularly L.A. and S.D., are extremely vulnerable in 1942. It takes a focused effort for the Allies to prepare an adequate defense. Jocke is fortunate that the Japanese invaded Hawaii instead of the West Coast. The follow on operations in Alaska and Canada gave Jocke sufficient warning, and more importantly time, to prepare his defenses in anticipation of an auto-victory VP grab.

I think the next adventurous Japanese player is going to go straight for L.A. and S.D. while he has the no prep amphib benefits. The goal being to wreck the aircraft factories and shipbuilding in both bases. The goal being a hit and run attack to destroy the aircraft factories and shipbuilding capacities of those bases. The likelihood of the Japanese doing this will have a serious impact on how the allies use their political points since buying out restricted units assigned to the west Coast will be a much lower priority.

I can't help but think this will even further reduce the willingness of Allied players to be aggressive in their early defense efforts in other areas of operations. Defense of the West Coast has to take priority over defense of Australia, India or anywhere else since it is a game changer.

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Post #: 2840
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 8:31:17 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

I can't help but think this will even further reduce the willingness of Allied players to be aggressive in their early defense efforts in other areas of operations. Defense of the West Coast has to take priority over defense of Australia, India or anywhere else since it is a game changer.


Lurker here - I find this conversation insightful.

Wouldn't the "anti Brave Sir Robin" strategy also provide protection against this ? Buy time for inches as Japan's player may do at end game ?

Defense in depth as much as possible for every square inch / risk supply runs with lower value ships / actually re-enforce if possible - especially : 1) Bataan triangle 2) All in in Singapore 3) Fortress Palembang 4) Timor Umbrella North Australia

None of this would necessitate that the Allied player could hope to hold these spots.. not suggesting that... just consolidate , supply, hang on , re-enforce if possible and even counter attack if Japan brings too little to the party saving up for a US invasion ?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 8:37:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Agree with the poodle here.

By invading PH and then Alaska I was pretty much forced to spend a lot of effort on the WC. There are 3 "extra" division there that I don´t normally keep there. The 40th and 41st US division and the 3 USMC ID. With the threat to the WC and the loss of PH I decided to buy out restricted OZ divisions instead. I stated prepping the 3 divisions for retaking Coal Harbor instead.

Jeff mentioned in an email that he hadn´t looked into the WC reinforcement package because he didn´t want to spoil the surprise. This probably means he didn´t look into the available US forces either. I´m pretty sure that if he had done that he would have ruled out an invasion. Even without the "extra" 3 divisions I think I would be stronger by 1-2 division. With the advantage of interior lines, defensive terrain and forts...its too much to overcome.

That being said. If Nick had come straight for LA/SD instead of Alaska...I would have been very, very nervous. Not many divisions on the WC that early. Pilot quality horrendous, plane pools completely empty...no allied radar, no AA....the list can be made long.

To sum it up. Its way too late for a WC OP to be successful. Not unless the allied player is caught completely off guard. No forts, no planes, no troops ready in stratmode etc etc.


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 8:43:19 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Let's talk about the bitter end for a minute. Assume Lowpe loses all his troops - how catastrophic is that? I've never played Japan, so I don't have a sense of where they'd be deployed, or what they should be doing at this point of the game. How does that change if he gets half of the troops out? Is his fuel or supply use off the charts? What does that mean to the later game?


I have little to no insight into the Japanese economy but losing the troops would be a tremendous VP hit. And worse yet his highly experience divisions would rebuilt with the national EXP level. I think its 45 or 50 for Japan. A big hit as many of his division are in the 80s range. It also means he will have given up large portions of the map for free. And gotten nothing in return.

He will have spent a tremendous amount of fuel in this OP. Massively much with lots and lots of tankers being used to haul fuel to PH instead of hauling oil from the DEI. He does have a big buffer though as this is a SCEN 2 game.






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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:08:15 PM   
Bif1961


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I am always amazed how so many players have lightly defended key assets. The Mini-KB of 5 Carriers shouldn't be escorted by just 1 CA and 4 DDs. He was asking for trouble and trouble obliged.

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Post #: 2844
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:41:02 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Kudos to Lowpe for trying something bold and entertaining. But, as Ross points out, when the wheels come off on an operation like this one, things do get ugly. Lowpe's going to have to fight against the natural tendency to lose interest. Watching replays in which carrier TFs get battered by surface combat TFs, while an army is threatened with utter destruction, isn't conducive to gaming pleasure. If things were going well - if Lowpe had taken LA and San Diego - he'd be flipipng turns like crazy now, no matter what's going on in his other game and real life. But it's incredibly hard to watch those wheels come off and maintain a reasonable level of motivation.

Someday we're going to see an elite-level Japanese player implement this strategy against a veteran but not-alert-enough Allied player. I think this strategy could work for auto victory, especially in one of the scenarios in which the IJ player gets lots of extra troops and ships.

In John III's game vs. NYGiants, he got off to a good enough start to pursue a strategy like this one. He took Alaska and Hawaii early on. But he just wasn't interested in pushing a West Coast/auto-victory strategy.

But I doubt this is a viable strategy in late '42 or early '43 if the Allied player has been building forts and has kept a decent garrison on the West Coast. I think the IJ player has to plan this from the outset and should strike the West Coast by late spring or early summer '42.

A relatively inexperienced Allied player would be in big doo-doo.

I'd like to see that "one of these days."


Yep, I have had a tendency to move out all of my divisions as soon as possible and take a slow bell on building up defenses. This has go my attention for future campaigns.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2845
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:42:53 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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Another impact that probably merits discussion is use of Allied units with engineers. Spamming remote islands won't be a viable strategy as the engineers will be needed for fort building. All those "spare" BFs will be better used digging on the West Coast than Flyspeck Island. The Allies will have to choose their bases in the Pacific with more care, and put serious effort into developing the few thay select. The bad news is that those bases will be very attractive targets for the Japanese, but the Allies will definitely know where they will be fighting.

As I perceive things, the Allies will have to identify defensive positions as worth fighting to the death for, die in place to buy time, token resistence and abandon completely. There are very few fight to the death sites for the Allies. There are many places where the Allies would like to die in place while causing significant delays to the Japanes. Unfortunately, the Allies are not in good position to do so effectively at very many of them. The "entertainment" value of the early stages of the game will be determined by the battles for these types of locations since these are actually worth committing valuable assets to.

Another thing that will be likely is a significant Allied offensive operation in the Summer/Fall of 1942 with the forces from the West Coast once they consider it secured from invasion. The Japanese will have reached just about full extension without time to develop proper defenses. So there should be ample targets of opportunity for the Allies to mount an operation involving about a Corps worth of LCUs.

Have I said how much I love this game for its ability to reveal new possibilities based on accumulated knowledge?


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:43:18 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

I can't help but think this will even further reduce the willingness of Allied players to be aggressive in their early defense efforts in other areas of operations. Defense of the West Coast has to take priority over defense of Australia, India or anywhere else since it is a game changer.


The problem with that--and you're right--is that Oz or India can also provide an auto-vic. At this point in the game's life the top Japanese players have hyper-optimized the first months. The devs never imagined some things that are "normal" now. The amphib bonus is there to allow historical moves in the DEI, etc., not a San Diego landing. DBB in particular assumes, with its very historical Aussie OOB, that Japan doesn't go huge in an invasion.

I don't know the answer. But as an Allied player I sometimes feel as if I'm standing in mud while Japanese players are flying overhead.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to poodlebrain)
Post #: 2847
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:48:00 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Kudos to Lowpe for trying something bold and entertaining. But, as Ross points out, when the wheels come off on an operation like this one, things do get ugly. Lowpe's going to have to fight against the natural tendency to lose interest. Watching replays in which carrier TFs get battered by surface combat TFs, while an army is threatened with utter destruction, isn't conducive to gaming pleasure. If things were going well - if Lowpe had taken LA and San Diego - he'd be flipipng turns like crazy now, no matter what's going on in his other game and real life. But it's incredibly hard to watch those wheels come off and maintain a reasonable level of motivation.

Someday we're going to see an elite-level Japanese player implement this strategy against a veteran but not-alert-enough Allied player. I think this strategy could work for auto victory, especially in one of the scenarios in which the IJ player gets lots of extra troops and ships.

In John III's game vs. NYGiants, he got off to a good enough start to pursue a strategy like this one. He took Alaska and Hawaii early on. But he just wasn't interested in pushing a West Coast/auto-victory strategy.

But I doubt this is a viable strategy in late '42 or early '43 if the Allied player has been building forts and has kept a decent garrison on the West Coast. I think the IJ player has to plan this from the outset and should strike the West Coast by late spring or early summer '42.

A relatively inexperienced Allied player would be in big doo-doo.

I'd like to see that "one of these days."


As you say I don´t think its doable this late. But an early landing in say March/April when the Allies are at their weakest and perhaps only level 3-4 forts...scary scary!

But personally I don´t think a move on the WC is the best use of Japanese assets. I´m not going to expand too much of that in case I ever get around to playing Japan.. But I think with a competent Japanese player in a SCEN 2 environment and the right opening achieving AV could be done with a pretty big degree of certainty.


Not so sure about this if the opponent is just as competent. Would have to be vs a weaker opponent to pull it off. But I never really play or allow play for auto victory. Weather it can be done in game life it was not possible in the real world. The two cultures were just too extremely opposite to think that they would have remained at peace. Even if totally knocked about the US would have eventually prevailed. Even if it took them a decade. I think auto victory makes for short violent games which do not appeal to me. If my Japanese opponents takes me to 8/45 then he has a minor victory in my book. At least.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2848
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 10:56:46 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Let's talk about the bitter end for a minute. Assume Lowpe loses all his troops - how catastrophic is that? I've never played Japan, so I don't have a sense of where they'd be deployed, or what they should be doing at this point of the game. How does that change if he gets half of the troops out? Is his fuel or supply use off the charts? What does that mean to the later game?




For Japan, losing troops is the norm-especially as 1944 rolls around. It is ships and resources than cannot be replaced.

The thing is that the Japanese player has to reveal his choices early on. If he has not pushed into India and Australia then two things happen. One the Allies need no longer worry about India and Australia, and this should be an indication that there is something else big afoot. The Allies have to be careful, but with careful reading of the tea leaves a good Allied player should suspect where Japan is going. They just have to move so many resources to escape Allied notice.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 2849
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 11:07:07 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

I can't help but think this will even further reduce the willingness of Allied players to be aggressive in their early defense efforts in other areas of operations. Defense of the West Coast has to take priority over defense of Australia, India or anywhere else since it is a game changer.


The problem with that--and you're right--is that Oz or India can also provide an auto-vic. At this point in the game's life the top Japanese players have hyper-optimized the first months. The devs never imagined some things that are "normal" now. The amphib bonus is there to allow historical moves in the DEI, etc., not a San Diego landing. DBB in particular assumes, with its very historical Aussie OOB, that Japan doesn't go huge in an invasion.

I don't know the answer. But as an Allied player I sometimes feel as if I'm standing in mud while Japanese players are flying overhead.


And then they get mad when the Allied does some kind of Sir Robin Defense.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2850
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