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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/29/2016 11:18:14 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

And then they get mad when the Allied does some kind of Sir Robin Defense.


I played a DBB game this past winter with a gent who doesn't hang around here. I didn't know him beforehand, and he was a top player with a hyper-optimized (four games that didn't go beyond 1942) opening. It was the game I have alluded to where he sank Saratoga at the pier before I had entered orders for my first turn. It was my first DBB game and first with SLs.

I didn't play great, but I played at what the forum would probably judge average to advanced average. When I resigned in 1942 he had, from memory, 12 IDs in Oz plus massive tank formations. Almost no strat VPs yet, so he had 6k-10k more on the table easy. Perth and Brisbane fell the same week. In DBB Oz can't form full divisions, and their armor arrives 80% disabled. The hyper-optimized DEI route got him to three sides of Oz very quickly. I'm sure there are folks here who could have done better, but not me.

I can hear Symon snorting about 12 IDs in Oz.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2851
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 1:08:21 AM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

And then they get mad when the Allied does some kind of Sir Robin Defense.


I played a DBB game this past winter with a gent who doesn't hang around here. I didn't know him beforehand, and he was a top player with a hyper-optimized (four games that didn't go beyond 1942) opening. It was the game I have alluded to where he sank Saratoga at the pier before I had entered orders for my first turn. It was my first DBB game and first with SLs.

I didn't play great, but I played at what the forum would probably judge average to advanced average. When I resigned in 1942 he had, from memory, 12 IDs in Oz plus massive tank formations. Almost no strat VPs yet, so he had 6k-10k more on the table easy. Perth and Brisbane fell the same week. In DBB Oz can't form full divisions, and their armor arrives 80% disabled. The hyper-optimized DEI route got him to three sides of Oz very quickly. I'm sure there are folks here who could have done better, but not me.

I can hear Symon snorting about 12 IDs in Oz.


I would term him a gamer (and a damn good one) but not necessarily a wargamer. For some the simulation does not matter-it just comes down to beating someone. Nothing wrong with this but it is not my cup of tea.

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Post #: 2852
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 2:24:23 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Let's talk about the bitter end for a minute. Assume Lowpe loses all his troops - how catastrophic is that? I've never played Japan, so I don't have a sense of where they'd be deployed, or what they should be doing at this point of the game. How does that change if he gets half of the troops out? Is his fuel or supply use off the charts? What does that mean to the later game?




The troops aren't an issue, really. The issue is multifaceted, but a big part of it is that Joc has just taken the Andamans with every major IJN ship way off at CONUS, which is going to hasten the end of this game even if Joc just sits on them for 6 months (he won't).

Add to that an anticipation of more shipping losses off CONUS... were I Lowpe, I would strongly consider just leaving the troops to die and not bother getting most of them out.

And yes, to add on to what poodlebrain said, if I were to do this as Japan, it wouldn't be in December 1942. It would be as early as possible. Potentially March or April. I'd likely skip Hawaii but probably grab some Alaskan coastline on the way.

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Post #: 2853
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 3:16:33 PM   
Mike McCreery


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These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2854
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 4:36:09 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Hi guys. Busy day renovating the laundry room. No turn from Jeff I´m afraid so no update.

Interesting discussion though. I´ll add my thought later!

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Post #: 2855
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 4:40:28 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.


Well, I think a quick stab to take SD or LA if it can be done is well worth it. But then I would cut and run, or even as Lokasenna suggests just abandon the troops if the American fleet is around. Taking out even one of these two aircraft production centers would be a brutal blow to the Allied player and help set the Japanese player up for a good endgame. LA would probably be fatal. Seattle would hurt but the Allies can win without the superfort. Next game I will focus on building these bases up first. That said. This tactic is a gaming tactic and has no connection to reality. The Americans would have recovered quickly enough and moved production to other safer locations and still pounded the hell out of Japan. So if my Japanese opponent pulled it off, I would probably resign, give them a hearty "good game" and never play them again.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2856
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 5:32:29 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.


Well, I think a quick stab to take SD or LA if it can be done is well worth it. But then I would cut and run, or even as Lokasenna suggests just abandon the troops if the American fleet is around. Taking out even one of these two aircraft production centers would be a brutal blow to the Allied player and help set the Japanese player up for a good endgame. LA would probably be fatal. Seattle would hurt but the Allies can win without the superfort. Next game I will focus on building these bases up first. That said. This tactic is a gaming tactic and has no connection to reality. The Americans would have recovered quickly enough and moved production to other safer locations and still pounded the hell out of Japan. So if my Japanese opponent pulled it off, I would probably resign, give them a hearty "good game" and never play them again.


What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?

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Post #: 2857
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/30/2016 6:05:01 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?
I think I'm detecting critical levels of sarcasm here. What Pacific Coast cities of Japan have major aircraft factories that are not Heavy Urban terrain? The Allies can only contemplate a mad dash for a specific city, a quick dump of the ground forces and hope they brought enough for a quick capture. There won't be any USN hanging around to provide air support.

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Post #: 2858
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 3:11:19 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?
I think I'm detecting critical levels of sarcasm here. What Pacific Coast cities of Japan have major aircraft factories that are not Heavy Urban terrain? The Allies can only contemplate a mad dash for a specific city, a quick dump of the ground forces and hope they brought enough for a quick capture. There won't be any USN hanging around to provide air support.


There are a few, perhaps more in Scen 2 than Scen 1. Utsonomiya for one, which is clear terrain.

Tsu, west of Nagoya, has 7 factories in Scen 2. It's clear terrain.

Sendai has 1 factory.


Any of those would go poof. Japan doesn't really get a lot of reinforcement LCUs until 1944. If you know the Japanese OOB and what units start where, as well as which units are where, you can know about what your opponent left back in Japan. If you really had your eyes on a prize like this, you could do it. I'd wait for Hellcats on the CVs, but it could definitely be done - much in the same way as a negligent Allied player vis-a-vis CONUS, a Japan player can easily be negligent of these particular hexes. Tunnel Vision Syndrome.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 8:10:06 AM   
JocMeister

 

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I don´t think taking PH is the best opening to be honest. As Japan you need to try and get the "most bang for buck" in 42 and there are IMO more effective options then PH/WC. When I looked at the PH operation VP wise the only net gain for Japan was the troop VPs. I did not include the base VPs in the calculation as these are not permanent. The rest was eaten up by Japanese losses in planes and mostly ships. Even in 43 I still get 1-2 confirmations per week on ships sunk in the landing by CD guns. In all my games I have never had so many ship VPs as this one.

When you consider the commitment for this OP there are clearly more effective opening. Granted if PH was the first step on something bigger it might still be a viable opening. Not so sure an OP against the WC is a very good idea either. I still think there are more effective ways for Japan to go about. Any OP on the WC gives the allies a free hand on the rest of the map. This will never be a good idea regardless of what a WC operation yields. And lets face it. Nothing that Japan can do on the WC will prevent the allies from winning the war in the end. Not even losing LA. You still get Corsairs, Hellcats and most importantly P47s. I´m 100% confident I could do just as well without them with a more defensive tactics in the air during 44-45. Especially in a PDU on environment.

To be honest I´m a little bit disappointed Jeff/Nick went this route. Its a novelty for sure and the "fun factor" is there. But by doing this he has potentially shortened the war considerably. Its clear now that Japan has failed the WC OP despite focusing all their power in one place. But in doing so the rest of the map is left completely wide open. I know you all want me to go for the throat and end this is as quickly as possible. As I said earlier I could probably end this within 6 months. That is the cost of the WC OP. That would still be the cost even if the WC was successful. So if you weigh the cost vs. reward even at the best (for Japan) possible outcome you trade some Allied fighter production in 44-45 for the DEI. If you lost the DEI or even just PB there won´t be a game in 44. I´m 90% sure I could take PB within 3-4 month if I set myself to it and Jeff lingers on the WC. But if I´m successful it means the game is pretty much over. Not sure I want that. I invested a lot of time and effort into this game and it would suck to see it end like that.

To be Frank. A WC OP was and is a bad idea for Japan. Especially in late 42/43. This is the main reason I was so skeptical about it. Looking at the forces available and the allied preparation due to the Japanese presence in Canada and PH it looked impossible. And I think it is. And regardless of the possibility of success or not its still a bad idea for the reasons I specified above. Japan can not land on the WC while keeping the Allies at bay in India/Burma/SOPAC/DEI. Its just impossible. A lightning attack at SD in early 42 might have its merits but I still don´t think its worth the investment.

So what now? I still have to ponder this. I´m going to go ahead with Pencil II and Paper. They are already in motion and I´m not going to reprepp them for a move on PB. After that? Now sure yet. I have an idea though that I don´t think you will like. But I don´t care.

In the end its actually about my own enjoyment. In my game with Erik I didn´t need to take the Marianas. I did anyway after Moose persuaded me and it turned out to be one of the most fun things I have done in AE.

So I´m probably going to do the same thing here. Do what I think will be most fun and give me the most enjoyment and that is not ending the game in 43 by raiding PB.

And that is that.

PS. No turn yet so no update.



< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/31/2016 8:39:46 AM >

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Post #: 2860
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 3:16:26 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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I would gladly trade 4 Japanese infantry divisions and support troops in April 1942 for the Allied aircraft production of Los Angeles and San Diego alone. Throw in the shipping that also never becomes part of the Allied arsenal, and it is a no brainer. It is the equivalent of sacrificing pawns for major pieces in a game of chess. Without the long range aircraft produced in L.A. and S.D. the Allies ability to mount offensive operations are limited to smaller radii of more limited LBA fighters. The operations of the US CVs will have to be increased to compensate, and it will have to be done without any of the shipping that would have been produced in L.A. or S.D. That is the loss of of several hundred xAK, AK, APA, LSD, LSM and various DD & DE.

A successful Japanese raid on the West Coast in early 1942 turns one of the JFB what if games into a what if game on steroids. The Japanese get more than they got in real life, and the Allies get much less. The West Coast invasion is an economically feasible opportunity for Japan to redfefine the respective orders of battle to their advantage.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 3:44:01 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

I would gladly trade 4 Japanese infantry divisions and support troops in April 1942 for the Allied aircraft production of Los Angeles and San Diego alone. Throw in the shipping that also never becomes part of the Allied arsenal, and it is a no brainer. It is the equivalent of sacrificing pawns for major pieces in a game of chess. Without the long range aircraft produced in L.A. and S.D. the Allies ability to mount offensive operations are limited to smaller radii of more limited LBA fighters. The operations of the US CVs will have to be increased to compensate, and it will have to be done without any of the shipping that would have been produced in L.A. or S.D. That is the loss of of several hundred xAK, AK, APA, LSD, LSM and various DD & DE.

A successful Japanese raid on the West Coast in early 1942 turns one of the JFB what if games into a what if game on steroids. The Japanese get more than they got in real life, and the Allies get much less. The West Coast invasion is an economically feasible opportunity for Japan to redfefine the respective orders of battle to their advantage.


Well, if the cost was 4 IDs its a no brainer. But there is simply not a snowballs chance in hell you will grab LA with only 4 divisions. Not unless the allied player is a complete tool and leave LA without even a lone division and never start fort construction.

Keep in mind that early in the game there are not only several PERM restricted divisions on the WC but due to PP shortage its unlikely any of the restricted divisions will have been bought out. Not only that but you don´t have many days before the emergency troops arrive at LA. Around 9 days. So you will have to bring enough to overcome LA in that short time.

Even a lone division and 3-5 forts there is no way you can capture LA with 4 divisions. And any semi competent Allied player will be watching his SIGINT like a hawk and will see you coming a long time ahead. And if you forgo prepp and land unprepped you will not only wreck the landing troops requiring you to bring more troops but you will also give the allies an extra day.

To be fair against a decently competent allied player LA will not be an option for the Japanese. Regardless of troops brought. And SD simply isn´t worth it investment needed. I did go through the shipping that arrives at SD and LA. SD gets very little besides a few late war CVEs. LA on the other hand gets a lot of xAK and also a lot of amphibious shipping. But as I said earlier I seriously doubt LA can be overcome.


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Post #: 2862
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 3:47:51 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.


Well, I think a quick stab to take SD or LA if it can be done is well worth it. But then I would cut and run, or even as Lokasenna suggests just abandon the troops if the American fleet is around. Taking out even one of these two aircraft production centers would be a brutal blow to the Allied player and help set the Japanese player up for a good endgame. LA would probably be fatal. Seattle would hurt but the Allies can win without the superfort. Next game I will focus on building these bases up first. That said. This tactic is a gaming tactic and has no connection to reality. The Americans would have recovered quickly enough and moved production to other safer locations and still pounded the hell out of Japan. So if my Japanese opponent pulled it off, I would probably resign, give them a hearty "good game" and never play them again.


What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?


Actually, there was a minor fix in the last patch that makes carrier raids on oil and factories very easy for either player. Prior to the fix you could not target factories or oil with carrier bombers that were out of range. You had to move into range and then sit there for a day while you targeted the hex for the next turn. This gave the other player a full turn to detect and react by moving fighters and bombers to the threatened hexes before the raid was launched. Now with the change a player can target oil and factories from outside of range and then do a full speed run in and let fly. Japan can do it as well but the effects and chances for Japanese raids are not the same. Now the Allies can raid Japanese DEI oil early in the game and do the same massive carrier raids against the homeland later in the game. More historical but not something that works in Japans favor. I think if the Japanese player commits to a major drive for Pearl, I would just counter by raiding oil centers in Java. Japanese resources are stretched pretty thin in 1942 as well. Many times these bases are left virtually undefended in that time period. The counter for Japanese over expansion is to hit her economy and then be patient.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2863
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 5:04:31 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Detroit
_____________________________________________________________________________

She is still afloat! In fact she might even make it back safely unless intercepted by Japanese forces. Going to detach a lone DD for escort while the rest dash straight for home.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 5:07:36 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Air losses
_____________________________________________________________________________

Another good day. No P47s lost. Jeff has started intercepting my transports to SD. Sadly I can´t sweep my own base but I got a full RGT in short of their 105mm guns.

I´ll give it a break for a couple of day before trying again. At least it will keep a portion of his air force busy.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 5:11:14 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Shiplosses
_____________________________________________________________________________

A very good day. Doubt the Hosho sank though as there would have been more plane losses on the ground.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 9:39:27 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Air losses
_____________________________________________________________________________

Another good day. No P47s lost. Jeff has started intercepting my transports to SD. Sadly I can´t sweep my own base but I got a full RGT in short of their 105mm guns.

I´ll give it a break for a couple of day before trying again. At least it will keep a portion of his air force busy.





Sorry, 2 beers in and watching baseball. How did you destroy all those Zeros on the ground?


_____________________________

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Post #: 2867
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 10:19:10 PM   
jmalter

 

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Here's where the 'orrid Allied sigint advantage comes into play. The IJ player knows he can't prep his LCUs for the invasion targets, else the Allied player gets notice of IJ intentions before the transports are loaded. The need to keep opsec requires the IJ to use massed LCU forces for this gambit, increasing the amount of shipping & fuel-use required. Without complete target prep, the chances of IJ success are kinda low.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2868
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/31/2016 10:58:58 PM   
paradigmblue

 

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nm

< Message edited by paradigmblue -- 7/31/2016 10:59:55 PM >

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Post #: 2869
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 5:03:09 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.


Well, I think a quick stab to take SD or LA if it can be done is well worth it. But then I would cut and run, or even as Lokasenna suggests just abandon the troops if the American fleet is around. Taking out even one of these two aircraft production centers would be a brutal blow to the Allied player and help set the Japanese player up for a good endgame. LA would probably be fatal. Seattle would hurt but the Allies can win without the superfort. Next game I will focus on building these bases up first. That said. This tactic is a gaming tactic and has no connection to reality. The Americans would have recovered quickly enough and moved production to other safer locations and still pounded the hell out of Japan. So if my Japanese opponent pulled it off, I would probably resign, give them a hearty "good game" and never play them again.


What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?


Actually, there was a minor fix in the last patch that makes carrier raids on oil and factories very easy for either player. Prior to the fix you could not target factories or oil with carrier bombers that were out of range. You had to move into range and then sit there for a day while you targeted the hex for the next turn. This gave the other player a full turn to detect and react by moving fighters and bombers to the threatened hexes before the raid was launched. Now with the change a player can target oil and factories from outside of range and then do a full speed run in and let fly. Japan can do it as well but the effects and chances for Japanese raids are not the same. Now the Allies can raid Japanese DEI oil early in the game and do the same massive carrier raids against the homeland later in the game. More historical but not something that works in Japans favor. I think if the Japanese player commits to a major drive for Pearl, I would just counter by raiding oil centers in Java. Japanese resources are stretched pretty thin in 1942 as well. Many times these bases are left virtually undefended in that time period. The counter for Japanese over expansion is to hit her economy and then be patient.


You COULD target while out of range before, but it depended on how far you moved in the last turn. And the TF they were in couldn't be ordered to be following another. You could move at full and set the target from 16+Extended range before, now it's just 2*Cruise + extended range (so typically 8+extended).

If Japan is off invading India at a date as late as what's going on here, a smash and grab (and more smash) on Honshu could be in the cards with ease. Some Japan players don't leave hardly anything behind, throwing it all forward as fast as possible in a mad rush to gain as much ablative territory as possible.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2870
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 6:05:34 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Sorry, 2 beers in and watching baseball. How did you destroy all those Zeros on the ground?


Its from Zuiho. Any planes destroyed on board ships show up as destroyed on the ground.

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Post #: 2871
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 9:19:19 AM   
JocMeister

 

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From: Sweden
Status: offline
Turn off to Jeff. No much planned for next turn. Dispatched a rescue force from SF consisting of 8 DDs under Burke´s command. I suspect the Japanese will come hunting for my damaged CLs. Also sent several subs towards possible interception routes. Also have 3 subs hunting outside PH search arcs. If the baby CVs make it that far I might get lucky...

P38 time on the WC. P39s will try and help. Working up towards something big here soon. Another attack ordered at LA.


(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2872
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 4:22:00 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

These specialized attacks are interesting but I think ultimately the reason they are not done often is that strategically they really dont gain much.

There is no significant infrastructure or resources at Hawaii that merits the taking of this island group. It is far out from Japan and it's fuel resources and needs to be defended with extra logistics.

Australia seems to be much the same. There is some industry at Perth but little to no oil and resources can be gained much closer to the Japanese homeland.

Australia, the PH and the WC are just too far for Japan to hold late into the game and base points are only calculated at the end.

Lowpe pulled all his forces to the right side of the map and Joc is making a logical move to attack the weak area.

My take on the specialized moves is if they are not used in a coordinated way to diminish the allied Naval and carrier power then they are largely wasted efforts.


Well, I think a quick stab to take SD or LA if it can be done is well worth it. But then I would cut and run, or even as Lokasenna suggests just abandon the troops if the American fleet is around. Taking out even one of these two aircraft production centers would be a brutal blow to the Allied player and help set the Japanese player up for a good endgame. LA would probably be fatal. Seattle would hurt but the Allies can win without the superfort. Next game I will focus on building these bases up first. That said. This tactic is a gaming tactic and has no connection to reality. The Americans would have recovered quickly enough and moved production to other safer locations and still pounded the hell out of Japan. So if my Japanese opponent pulled it off, I would probably resign, give them a hearty "good game" and never play them again.


What, you wouldn't return the favor by landing at some coastal hex in Japan in June 1943 to destroy a bunch of factories?


Actually, there was a minor fix in the last patch that makes carrier raids on oil and factories very easy for either player. Prior to the fix you could not target factories or oil with carrier bombers that were out of range. You had to move into range and then sit there for a day while you targeted the hex for the next turn. This gave the other player a full turn to detect and react by moving fighters and bombers to the threatened hexes before the raid was launched. Now with the change a player can target oil and factories from outside of range and then do a full speed run in and let fly. Japan can do it as well but the effects and chances for Japanese raids are not the same. Now the Allies can raid Japanese DEI oil early in the game and do the same massive carrier raids against the homeland later in the game. More historical but not something that works in Japans favor. I think if the Japanese player commits to a major drive for Pearl, I would just counter by raiding oil centers in Java. Japanese resources are stretched pretty thin in 1942 as well. Many times these bases are left virtually undefended in that time period. The counter for Japanese over expansion is to hit her economy and then be patient.


You COULD target while out of range before, but it depended on how far you moved in the last turn. And the TF they were in couldn't be ordered to be following another. You could move at full and set the target from 16+Extended range before, now it's just 2*Cruise + extended range (so typically 8+extended).

If Japan is off invading India at a date as late as what's going on here, a smash and grab (and more smash) on Honshu could be in the cards with ease. Some Japan players don't leave hardly anything behind, throwing it all forward as fast as possible in a mad rush to gain as much ablative territory as possible.



I don't think you could. Not until the Dec. 25, 2014 patch. I never successfully did it before then. This is note 31 from the read me file for that patch. 31. Allow carrier based groups to pick out of range city attack. Inline with port/af attack

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2873
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 4:54:56 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you could. Not until the Dec. 25, 2014 patch. I never successfully did it before then. This is note 31 from the read me file for that patch. 31. Allow carrier based groups to pick out of range city attack. Inline with port/af attack


You definitely could. Against MM, I was able to set a city attack target out to 26 hexes due to moving 16 hexes in a turn, and SBD-5 range being 10 hexes. I'm fairly certain I posted about it because one of my TFs was set to follow, and none of the bombers in that TF could set a target at all (as if they hadn't moved). I just can't remember whether I posted in my AAR or in tech support.

Found it, here's the thread. I think this may have prompted the change.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3773552&mpage=1&key=city%2Cattack�

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2874
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 4:56:01 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Sorry, 2 beers in and watching baseball. How did you destroy all those Zeros on the ground?


Its from Zuiho. Any planes destroyed on board ships show up as destroyed on the ground.


And I'm not positive, but I think if the ship is not sunk outright during the turn but scuttled by the player, then they might show up as Ops and not "DOG", as I call it.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2875
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 5:50:50 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you could. Not until the Dec. 25, 2014 patch. I never successfully did it before then. This is note 31 from the read me file for that patch. 31. Allow carrier based groups to pick out of range city attack. Inline with port/af attack


You definitely could. Against MM, I was able to set a city attack target out to 26 hexes due to moving 16 hexes in a turn, and SBD-5 range being 10 hexes. I'm fairly certain I posted about it because one of my TFs was set to follow, and none of the bombers in that TF could set a target at all (as if they hadn't moved). I just can't remember whether I posted in my AAR or in tech support.

Found it, here's the thread. I think this may have prompted the change.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3773552&mpage=1&key=city%2Cattack�



But that thread is dated 12/31/2014. The patch note is dated 12/25/2014. Prior to that patch, you could not set a city attack with a carrier bombing unit if they were out of range. I note that you said you noticed it two weeks prior but is it possible that you were using a later beta where the change had already been implemented? Note, that I did have the same problem as you getting all units to set to city attack. But I fiddled with it and eventually got all of them to work. I think I just moved them a few hexes into the max run in range but it has been a while. Launched a nasty attack on undefended Soerjaba and virtually wiped out all oil production. Felt so guilty about it that I have declined doing it any more-for now anyways.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2876
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 6:36:26 PM   
Anthro03

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/20/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Launched a nasty attack on undefended Soerjaba and virtually wiped out all oil production. Felt so guilty about it that I have declined doing it any more-for now anyways.


Why? Sudden War Winning actions should be encouraged.

"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his desserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all!"

James Graham, 5th Earl of Montrose


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2877
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 6:46:34 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you could. Not until the Dec. 25, 2014 patch. I never successfully did it before then. This is note 31 from the read me file for that patch. 31. Allow carrier based groups to pick out of range city attack. Inline with port/af attack


You definitely could. Against MM, I was able to set a city attack target out to 26 hexes due to moving 16 hexes in a turn, and SBD-5 range being 10 hexes. I'm fairly certain I posted about it because one of my TFs was set to follow, and none of the bombers in that TF could set a target at all (as if they hadn't moved). I just can't remember whether I posted in my AAR or in tech support.

Found it, here's the thread. I think this may have prompted the change.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3773552&mpage=1&key=city%2Cattack�



But that thread is dated 12/31/2014. The patch note is dated 12/25/2014. Prior to that patch, you could not set a city attack with a carrier bombing unit if they were out of range. I note that you said you noticed it two weeks prior but is it possible that you were using a later beta where the change had already been implemented? Note, that I did have the same problem as you getting all units to set to city attack. But I fiddled with it and eventually got all of them to work. I think I just moved them a few hexes into the max run in range but it has been a while. Launched a nasty attack on undefended Soerjaba and virtually wiped out all oil production. Felt so guilty about it that I have declined doing it any more-for now anyways.


Responded in that thread, but we were using the previous beta prior to the change.

The change made it more reliable as you always get 2*Cruise + Extended Range for setting the target now, but actually reduced the potential range for a raid like that (at least for the Allies, who can afford to run at full speed for 2 days without major fuel/bunker issues).

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2878
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 7:18:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
LA attack
_____________________________________________________________________________

Don´t have time to do a full update. More will come tomorrow!

quote:

Ground combat at Los Angeles (225,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 101541 troops, 2007 guns, 4332 vehicles, Assault Value = 3356

Defending force 68384 troops, 972 guns, 848 vehicles, Assault Value = 1428

Allied adjusted assault: 1372

Japanese adjusted defense: 2689

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1765 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 226 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 59 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 28 disabled
Guns lost 84 (28 destroyed, 56 disabled)
Vehicles lost 32 (8 destroyed, 24 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1124 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 250 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 50 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
Guns lost 47 (8 destroyed, 39 disabled)
Vehicles lost 144 (13 destroyed, 131 disabled)


Assaulting units:
13th Armoured Division
3rd Marine Division
5th Armoured Division
7th Motorized Division
41st Infantry Division
6th Armoured Division
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
40th Infantry Division
36th Infantry Division
LA Harbor Defense
8th Motorized Division
2nd Armored Division
Provisional Tank Brigade
29th USN Special Construction Battalion
503rd Coast AA Regiment
24th MAG
181st Field Artillery Battalion
144th Field Artillery Regiment
21st Base Maint Engineer Battalion
Los Angeles USN Base Force
603rd Coast AA Regiment
168th Field Artillery Battalion
204th Coast AA Regiment
511th Coast AA Regiment
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
37th US Naval Construction Battalion
I US Corps
3rd USN Naval Construction Regiment
352nd Construction Regiment
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
214th Coast AA Regiment
165th Field Artillery Battalion
21st US Naval Construction Battalion
19th Base Maint Engineer Battalion
188th Field Artillery Battalion
II USA Corps


Defending units:
16th Division
1st Division
12th Division
9th Division
2nd Tank Division
6th Guards Division
2nd RF Gun Battalion
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
22nd Fld AA Gun Co
8th RF Gun Battalion
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
9th RF Gun Battalion
1st Air Defense AA Battalion
11th RF Gun Battalion
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
10th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
15th Air Defense AA Regiment
12th Ind.AA Gun Co
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
3rd Hvy.Artillery Rgt /1



Next attack I will have an additional division + 2nd Army Tank Brigade with 150 Lees.

We are giving as much as we lose. A good ratio considering the terrain. And he will run out of troops before I do!

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2879
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 8/1/2016 7:58:27 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you could. Not until the Dec. 25, 2014 patch. I never successfully did it before then. This is note 31 from the read me file for that patch. 31. Allow carrier based groups to pick out of range city attack. Inline with port/af attack


You definitely could. Against MM, I was able to set a city attack target out to 26 hexes due to moving 16 hexes in a turn, and SBD-5 range being 10 hexes. I'm fairly certain I posted about it because one of my TFs was set to follow, and none of the bombers in that TF could set a target at all (as if they hadn't moved). I just can't remember whether I posted in my AAR or in tech support.

Found it, here's the thread. I think this may have prompted the change.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3773552&mpage=1&key=city%2Cattack�



But that thread is dated 12/31/2014. The patch note is dated 12/25/2014. Prior to that patch, you could not set a city attack with a carrier bombing unit if they were out of range. I note that you said you noticed it two weeks prior but is it possible that you were using a later beta where the change had already been implemented? Note, that I did have the same problem as you getting all units to set to city attack. But I fiddled with it and eventually got all of them to work. I think I just moved them a few hexes into the max run in range but it has been a while. Launched a nasty attack on undefended Soerjaba and virtually wiped out all oil production. Felt so guilty about it that I have declined doing it any more-for now anyways.


Responded in that thread, but we were using the previous beta prior to the change.

The change made it more reliable as you always get 2*Cruise + Extended Range for setting the target now, but actually reduced the potential range for a raid like that (at least for the Allies, who can afford to run at full speed for 2 days without major fuel/bunker issues).


I guess it really does not matter when the change came about. The point is that it is now viable and we have both seen it work. It would be a good counter against a Japanese player who sends all his assets to take far off places early in the game. Without oil it matter little how far they advance-unless they pull off an AV.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2880
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