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The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

 
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The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ mus... - 5/20/2015 4:05:47 AM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		I just checked the old save files of my game against Maquo in the 1.08.03 patch. In the attached picture, T6, the blue circled hex (which I did a HQ build up) is 20 mp from Rail head, the red circled hex is 25 hexes from Rail head. I have waited 3 turns for the railhead to advance so I could make a HQ build up at the blue circled hex in T6 (in the new patch I would be able to do HQ at the same hex in T4, if so I would do it and would get much advantage in T4). Suppose I could do a HQ build up in the red circled hex instead of the blue one in T6? It is no hard to see that it would make huge difference! It takes 3 turns ahead regarding time, and huge jump ahead regarding space.

Germany would take Moscow in history if they could make such fancy HQ build up at the gate of Moscow.
In my game against Saper222, one major strategy of my play was trying to exhaust the fuel of his Pz head, with the HQ build up being allowed to make at 25 hexes from rail head, such tactic of SHC is completely useless. That is unfair to the soviet side, and extremely against history.

Also one can imagine that axis player would be able to make a break through, get his Pz HQs driving into the newly conquered land and make HQ build up there as long as it has 20% mp left, then the Pz corps would go on to advance 50 mp next turn, encircled whatever it like to. So it needs to return to the old rule that the HQ should no move at all if it wants to do a HQ build up that turn. It makes sense as a HQ build should consume a whole week to administer. 20% of mp is less than 2 days.

Note I speak from the point of view of a Axis player, I just played the soviet side, and now I want to play the German side. German side doesn’t need such a big favor.





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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 4:06:48 AM   
mktours

 

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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 4:11:11 AM   
mktours

 

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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 5:07:39 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		HQBU will be nerfed in 1.08.04, and even general supply too (a bit). Penalty reduction will not be constant and the higher the worse your supply modifiers, but reduction will be up to 20% of supply modifiers at 100% buildup. And it will not give bonus to failed leader rolls impact on MP. Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 4
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 5:09:57 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		And the range from railhead for doing HQBU drops from 25/100 to 20/80.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 5
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 5:31:26 AM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Morvael,
Thanks for your reply, I like most of the new features you make, which makes the game much better. But I don't understand why making the HQ build up so complicated? I think the old rules is simple and easy to understand, the new rules of HQ build up really confuse me. In such a mega-game, the sub-rules the simpler, the better.
20hex/80mp is still too much, 20 mp is a fair range. It works for so long and nobody contested it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

HQBU will be nerfed in 1.08.04, and even general supply too (a bit). Penalty reduction will not be constant and the higher the worse your supply modifiers, but reduction will be up to 20% of supply modifiers at 100% buildup. And it will not give bonus to failed leader rolls impact on MP. Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.


(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 6
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 6:01:01 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 7
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 9:13:01 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.

Morvael,
Personally I am still thinking that 20 mp is a fair range and the HQ should not move that turn.
But I am just one player, and I don’t know about others’ opinions, there were some people who having said that they don’t like the new rules, but maybe most people simply don’t care, or they do like the new rules. That is not what I can judge. If most people do like the new rules, I could just retreat to making House rules in my own games when I play GHC.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 8
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:06:55 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The idea is not to arbitrarily block HQBU, but make it near-useless when applied to units that have moved a lot and/or are far away from the supply source, resulting in spending of trucks and APs for little gain. At the same time players may have different "sweet spots" at which they decide a HQBU is worth it or not. For some it may be 20MP and unmoved units, resulting in 100% supply efficiency and units supplied to 200% at minimal AP cost. Some will be happy to have the HQBU bump their supply efficiency from 40 to 44% and for their units reach 65% supplies instead of 50% and pay more AP due to range. That will give a few MP more and may be helpful, but obviously the gain will be little compared to expense. The problem was only properly reducing the effect of HQBU with range and spent MP, but I think it will be OK in 1.08.04 and house rules will not be necessary.

(in reply to mktours)
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:11:15 AM   
mktours

 

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Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The idea is not to arbitrarily block HQBU, but make it near-useless when applied to units that have moved a lot and/or are far away from the supply source, resulting in spending of trucks and APs for little gain. At the same time players may have different "sweet spots" at which they decide a HQBU is worth it or not. For some it may be 20MP and unmoved units, resulting in 100% supply efficiency and units supplied to 200% at minimal AP cost. Some will be happy to have the HQBU bump their supply efficiency from 40 to 44% and for their units reach 65% supplies instead of 50% and pay more AP due to range. That will give a few MP more and may be helpful, but obviously the gain will be little compared to expense. The problem was only properly reducing the effect of HQBU with range and spent MP, but I think it will be OK in 1.08.04 and house rules will not be necessary.

Ok, Let us expect the 1.08.04 patch, :)
When will it be release?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 10
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:13:10 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Hard to tell, the work on fixing all scenarios is taxing, but the .exe itself is really feature complete.

(in reply to mktours)
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:13:23 AM   
Peltonx


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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.

Morvael,
Personally I am still thinking that 20 mp is a fair range and the HQ should not move that turn.
But I am just one player, and I don’t know about others’ opinions, there were some people who having said that they don’t like the new rules, but maybe most people simply don’t care, or they do like the new rules. That is not what I can judge. If most people do like the new rules, I could just retreat to making House rules in my own games when I play GHC.



As with everything WitE a tweak can kill the game as 1.06 did.
If your tracking the general population here its coming slowly back to life.

After 1.06 it was had to get a game vs someone on forums or putting it on the server. It took weeks to get one.

But now after 1.08 I put one on server it is taken in 24 hrs.

I do agree with u that its to easy and needed to be tweak back, which morveal is doing.
Hes done fixes I have not agreed with, but over time and testing he has been right and I have been wrong almost every time unlike 2by3.


20 MPs and less supplys is a big tweak because that effects every single turn over time = less advance, less pocketed Russians, more forts ( fort building faster for Russians .04) more Russians ect ect.

We don't want to go back to Russians being on the offensive in 42 summer, walls of steel from Pskov to land bridge T-7 ect ect which was completely unhistorical.

So you don't think morveal is nerfing it enough?

The only thing more u want is HQ can not move for a turn?

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(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 12
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:30:42 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton



The only thing more u want is HQ can not move for a turn?

Pelton, Thanks for your reply.
I think that the GHC would be able to make HQ build up at 25 hexes when its Pzs are exhausted in fuel is what I am concerned about. There are certain timing when both the GHC and SHC are exhausting, GHC being short of fuel, SHC being short of troops and not space to further trade for retreating, then if GHC got the fuel to its Pz head, it could encircle the RED ARMY, which have not space to further trade at that time.
But I haven't test the new patch yet, so I am not a good judge of it.
The HQ need to be stay unmoved because I think that a HQ build up require a whole week to administer, also if it could be allowed to move,then it might be exploited to make other advantages.

(in reply to Peltonx)
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:31:42 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Hard to tell, the work on fixing all scenarios is taxing, but the .exe itself is really feature complete.

Will be looking forward to that patch.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 14
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:41:52 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/20/2015 11:42:53 AM >

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(in reply to mktours)
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:50:03 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.

I knew that once the HQ built up, it could not move. I am saying that it must stay unmoved the whole turn.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I haven't play the game after it advance to 1.08 (as I am still waiting the updated Manual), so you should be a much better judge of it then me.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 16
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 10:57:41 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.

I knew that once the HQ built up, it could not move. I am saying that it must stay unmoved the whole turn.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I haven't play the game after it advance to 1.08 (as I am still waiting the updated Manual), so you should be a much better judge of it then me.


I could live with it not moving, but I think that's not completely historical.

I think its should be able to move some 10-15 MP's, but I thk that's what morveal is factoring in with his small nerf to supplies ect.

Really if you want full effect of HQBU its best to have 30+ MP's in the panzer divisions, be less then 25 MP's from railhead and then do HQBU under the current ruleset.


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(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 17
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:18:46 AM   
Eambar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

...and even general supply too (a bit)...Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.


Do I read this right that general supply will come back to 20 MP from railhead or is the 20MP just referring to HQ Buildup?

Cheers,

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 18
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:20:23 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


I could live with it not moving, but I think that's not completely historical.

I think its should be able to move some 10-15 MP's, but I thk that's what morveal is factoring in with his small nerf to supplies ect.

Really if you want full effect of HQBU its best to have 30+ MP's in the panzer divisions, be less then 25 MP's from railhead and then do HQBU under the current ruleset.


I am still quite confusing about the current HQ build up rules, it looks like quite complicated (a good Manual is much needed).
Your experiences would be helpful to me when I do more check of it.
To get a big pile of cargo to a certain position require a lot of administration work and busy transport, one week is not even enough, I think, if the HQ move, then a big Chaos would be.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 19
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:30:22 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie3


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

...and even general supply too (a bit)...Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.


Do I read this right that general supply will come back to 20 MP from railhead or is the 20MP just referring to HQ Buildup?

Cheers,


General supply max range is 25/100 as before. But the efficiency started to drop from 100% after 10/25. Now it will be after 10/20. So yes it's about general supply, but not reducing it's current general range, only increasing penalty above 20 MP from railhead.

(in reply to Eambar)
Post #: 20
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:33:23 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
To get a big pile of cargo to a certain position require a lot of administration work and busy transport, one week is not even enough, I think, if the HQ move, then a big Chaos would be.


That's what happens - you pay a lot of AP, you waste a lot of trucks, little is actually delivered. And proper buildup will take more than one week - 1st turn withdraw units close to railhead, 2nd turn make buildup when at 100% MP and to get exemption from failed admin rolls, 3rd turn ride forth and bring ruin to enemy. Hasty HQBU will not give you as much, the costs will be large and the payoff small. But sometimes this may be crucial and I didn't want to totally block that option (if you have AP and trucks to burn for a little bonus, who am I to stop you).

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 21
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:45:03 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
To get a big pile of cargo to a certain position require a lot of administration work and busy transport, one week is not even enough, I think, if the HQ move, then a big Chaos would be.


That's what happens - you pay a lot of AP, you waste a lot of trucks, little is actually delivered. And proper buildup will take more than one week - 1st turn withdraw units close to railhead, 2nd turn make buildup when at 100% MP and to get exemption from failed admin rolls, 3rd turn ride forth and bring ruin to enemy. Hasty HQBU will not give you as much, the costs will be large and the payoff small. But sometimes this may be crucial and I didn't want to totally block that option (if you have AP and trucks to burn for a little bonus, who am I to stop you).

So the new rules is indeed quite complicated, I would make more checks.
Thanks for the reply.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 22
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 11:53:36 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Complicated to code but more user friendly. Instead of something arbitrary ("Oops, I spent 1 MP - no build up" or "Oops, I am 21 MP from rail - no build up"), you get something that scales. The less ideal conditions the less you get for higher price, but you still get something. It's as if a paper boardgame rule, which had to be clean, simple and arbitrary for the players to be able to remember it and apply quickly, you get a computer boardgame rule, that uses computer to calculate necessary things and free you from the boring details. You just have to know the relation between distance to railhead/% of spent MP to the results of HQBU/spent trucks/spent AP, but you are not tied to observe a magic number that acts as an on/off switch. In this sense it's more user friendly.

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 23
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 2:24:30 PM   
Eambar


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Morvael for the quick response, clear now.

Also, really appreciate all the hard work you put into these updates.

Cheers,

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 24
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/20/2015 6:12:49 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


I could live with it not moving, but I think that's not completely historical.

I think its should be able to move some 10-15 MP's, but I thk that's what morveal is factoring in with his small nerf to supplies ect.

Really if you want full effect of HQBU its best to have 30+ MP's in the panzer divisions, be less then 25 MP's from railhead and then do HQBU under the current ruleset.


I am still quite confusing about the current HQ build up rules, it looks like quite complicated (a good Manual is much needed).
Your experiences would be helpful to me when I do more check of it.
To get a big pile of cargo to a certain position require a lot of administration work and busy transport, one week is not even enough, I think, if the HQ move, then a big Chaos would be.


mktours HQBUs have never really been the problem to the uber advances.

Its the fuels drops, which by the way have been COMPLETELY nerfed with .04 for the attacker

coupled with isolated units being harder to kill and easyer to supply.

.04 is a big boost for Russia.

I was hoping morveal would post the change log for .04. Its not my place to do that its Morveal or Denniss

You be happy to know
1.HQBU gets a nerf
2.Air drops off fuel a major nerf for the attacker
3. Air drops + other things is a buff for defenders even if isolated.


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 25
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/21/2015 12:13:53 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Complicated to code but more user friendly. Instead of something arbitrary ("Oops, I spent 1 MP - no build up" or "Oops, I am 21 MP from rail - no build up"), you get something that scales. The less ideal conditions the less you get for higher price, but you still get something. It's as if a paper boardgame rule, which had to be clean, simple and arbitrary for the players to be able to remember it and apply quickly, you get a computer boardgame rule, that uses computer to calculate necessary things and free you from the boring details. You just have to know the relation between distance to railhead/% of spent MP to the results of HQBU/spent trucks/spent AP, but you are not tied to observe a magic number that acts as an on/off switch. In this sense it's more user friendly.

It looks like we are having different preference on this issue. I prefer clear cut answers (20 mp range, 50 mp result, fuel stock sustainable for 2 turns), while you prefer a scale function with 3 variables (distance, mp left, leader check), that is normal as people are fine to hold different preferences, it should be fine, :)
Thanks for explain your thoughts to me, it is a helpful discussion and I appreciate it very much.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 26
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/21/2015 12:20:57 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You be happy to know
1.HQBU gets a nerf
2.Air drops off fuel a major nerf for the attacker
3. Air drops + other things is a buff for defenders even if isolated.


Pelton,
Those changes looks like more close to historical reality, so yes, I would be happy to know that the improvements are made, :)
I think that the transport level also need to be tone down, up to 50% cut, I think you will be happy to see that happen.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 27
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/21/2015 12:41:14 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You be happy to know
1.HQBU gets a nerf
2.Air drops off fuel a major nerf for the attacker
3. Air drops + other things is a buff for defenders even if isolated.


Pelton,
Those changes looks like more close to historical reality, so yes, I would be happy to know that the improvements are made, :)
I think that the transport level also need to be tone down, up to 50% cut, I think you will be happy to see that happen.


morveal and his crew have done a great job, making balance tweaks that improve the game not make it worse.

The list of bugs fixed is simply amazing when you think of the time required to recode things.




_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 28
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/21/2015 9:16:10 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton



morveal and his crew have done a great job, making balance tweaks that improve the game not make it worse.

The list of bugs fixed is simply amazing when you think of the time required to recode things.




Yes, many thanks to Morvael and his team for their hard work to improve the game.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 29
RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ... - 5/21/2015 12:05:13 PM   
cato12

 

Posts: 246
Joined: 7/19/2011
Status: offline 		Just wanna add my thanks to morveal as well for all his efforts.

(in reply to mktours)
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