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RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic ai formation behavior!

 
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RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/18/2015 8:26:24 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Funny, I have never had one, except for torpedoes.

In fact, I tested it once and was able to fire through lines of ships.


11" hits from the Moltke on Lutzow. But they were also dodging torpedoes at the time. I remember cursing my gunners...

When Rome Total War came out, you did not put archers behind your other units. You'd get slaughtered.

But I do agree with you. No friendly fire isn't a deal breaker.

re Jutland. I remember one battle where British destroyers under fire reversed course, then did a 90deg turn through their own line....

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/18/2015 9:33:16 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/18/2015 8:35:56 PM   
JamesLxx

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/12/2001
Status: offline 		What more can one say.....




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 32
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/18/2015 8:36:19 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Usually FF is not considered because the AI is atrocious at handling it.

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Post #: 33
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/18/2015 10:06:43 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

What more can one say.....





That's just begging for cannon fire.

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Post #: 34
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/18/2015 10:14:00 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		Its the next evolution of the square...

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Post #: 35
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 1:26:45 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Its the next evolution of the square...


Yeah, It's called the circle.

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Post #: 36
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:13:39 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		But everyone knows you can't square a circle...

(Sorry)

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Post #: 37
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 8:04:28 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		How often do the formations shown above occur in the game (the circle)? I'm on the fence about this game, and struggling with weird formations is one of the things that has turned me off similar games in the past.

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Post #: 38
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 8:11:22 AM   
Kharkov

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/7/2003
From: Birmingham
Status: offline 		Same as above poster, really want to buy this game but when I hear of silly conga line formations and "circle" formations it really puts me off :(

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 39
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 10:07:08 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kharkov

Same as above poster, really want to buy this game but when I hear of silly conga line formations and "circle" formations it really puts me off :(


If you let something like this stop you from buying the game your going to miss out on one of the best designs in the history of computer wargaming. Yes, even better than Command Ops.

I've been playing since they were Mad Minute and made the first 2nd Manassas and I never let that circle or wheeling bother me. It's a GAME not a political science class. Play it like a GAME and you'll get hours of fun. If you just use the double time march button on the command console you'll hardly even notice it.

If you can't deal because it's not perfect then I'm sorry for you as really no game is or ever will be perfect. It is one of the best games I've ever played though. Playing and watching 100's of thousands of men onscreen has never been done so well.

(in reply to Kharkov)
Post #: 40
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 10:10:46 AM   
oho_slith

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline 		the circles are not the biggest problem but wrong formations (only lines) and crossing units, see my post about that. I would wait buying the game.

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Post #: 41
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 10:13:37 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oho

the circles are not the biggest problem but wrong formations (only lines) and crossing units, see my post about that. I would wait buying the game.


Once again this is a GAME not trying to be a politically correct version of the doctrine of the military.

I would BUY now while you can still get a copy. You know the 1st Manassas game they made is hard to find now?

Also, if anything most of you know I'm pretty harsh on most games. I HIGHLY recommend this game and series if you enjoy wargaming at all. Best is the best and this series not just this game is the best!!!

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 6/19/2015 11:15:23 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:17:16 AM   
JamesLxx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kharkov

Same as above poster, really want to buy this game but when I hear of silly conga line formations and "circle" formations it really puts me off :(


If you let something like this stop you from buying the game your going to miss out on one of the best designs in the history of computer wargaming. Yes, even better than Command Ops.

I've been playing since they were Mad Minute and made the first 2nd Manassas and I never let that circle or wheeling bother me. It's a GAME not a political science class. Play it like a GAME and you'll get hours of fun. If you just use the double time march button on the command console you'll hardly even notice it.

If you can't deal because it's not perfect then I'm sorry for you as really no game is or ever will be perfect. It is one of the best games I've ever played though. Playing and watching 100's of thousands of men onscreen has never been done so well.


aaatoysandmore thanks, you've just made me fall off my chair laughing! Are you on commission? Sorry. I can see you love this game. I like it too, its a wonderful command simulation.

But at the tactical level it falls flat on its face. The unreal formation behaviour affects the tactical outcome. I'm not just talking about aesthetics here - if all the Regiments of a Brigade are pointing in different directions then the combat results would be different from one that keeps good cohesion. I'm complaining because if this game worked at both strategic AND tactical level then it would be an all time classic.

As for potential buyers - do buy it: the more support Norbsoft gets the more this game will develop into something extraordinary! (just be aware its a bit unfinished at the moment)

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 43
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:21:09 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		if you take the game as visual=literal then you will never be happy and it is not for you.

if you want a great experience in command decisions in historical situations then you will love it

cheers

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Post #: 44
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:25:28 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Once again this is a GAME not trying to be a politically correct version of the doctrine of the military.

I would BUY now while you can still get a copy. You know the 1st Manassas game they made is hard to find now?

Also, if anything most of you know I'm pretty harsh on most games. I HIGHLY recommend this game and series if you enjoy wargaming at all. Best is the best and this series not just this game is the best!!!


Sorry, I couldn't find your, uh, enthusiastic review less convincing... I'm not looking for a "politically correct version of the doctrine of the military" (whatever that is...) but something which, you know, generally incorporates important factors for the type of warfare that it supposedly represents. Conga-lines and units criss-crossing willy-nilly don't do that for me.

And as for First Manassas--I have that game as well, had the same issues, that is specifically why I'm asking about this game. If they haven't fixed theses issues by now, I guess they never will.

I'm glad you (really really) like the game, and I might buy it at some point when and if I hear a more sober commentary of these and similar issues.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/19/2015 12:28:14 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:53:01 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		this is probably not the right forum to form a balanced opinion by. There are sock puppets/haters/ here that are not present in period enthusiast forums (remember, this is the publisher forum only)
You may get a more balanced and informed opinion there. Note: I am not saying everything is roses straight away.

Where? google is useful.



< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/19/2015 12:55:27 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 12:18:32 PM   
JamesLxx

 

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Joined: 12/12/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

if you take the game as visual=literal then you will never be happy and it is not for you.

if you want a great experience in command decisions in historical situations then you will love it

cheers


Its not just aesthetic appeal or wanting the brigades to "behave" themselves. Its also the fact that the actual combat outcome of a brigade with is regiments pointing all directions is going to be different from one that keeps realistic cohesion. This unreal tactical resolution doesn't match up to the brilliant strategic engine of this game.

Instead of saying to saying to myself 'that's the way its always been, get used to it' I'm hoping that some work could be done to improve this game to make it truly complete. In my original post I made some suggestions about allowing the AI to use some already programmed manoeuvres which are available to the player. That's a start.



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Post #: 47
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 12:30:40 PM   
e_barkmann


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quote:

Its also the fact that the actual combat outcome of a brigade with is regiments pointing all directions is going to be different from one that keeps realistic cohesion.


you've lost me, sorry :-) Combat in the engine is measured and gauged from flag to flag. If your issue is which way the units are facing momentarily then again, you are probably focussing on the wrong element in this particular game.

my suggestion would be to feedback your info to Mitra in regards to ai stances and positions, to improve the visual aspect of the game over time

cheers

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/19/2015 1:32:12 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 2:05:49 PM   
JamesLxx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

quote:

If your issue is which way the units are facing momentarily then again, you are probably focussing on the wrong element in this particular game.


No my issues are mainly with how the regiments become tangled/scattered loosing all brigade cohesion, not momentary facings. Common in game situations such as pictured below result in unrealistic combat resolution...plus they look bloody awful!






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JamesL -- 6/19/2015 3:13:05 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 2:48:58 PM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		can you please define what you mean specifically by brigade cohesion. I am not seeing this when I order brigades to do something. This could be good feedback to the NSD team re ai behaviour, if this is the case when you're micro managing.

good choice of troop nationality ;-)

cheers

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Post #: 50
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 4:37:38 PM   
JamesLxx

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/12/2001
Status: offline 		Ok Brigade cohesion - Napoleonic brigades had an SOP to keep their regiments in good order and under control. for example:
the picture below illustrates a French SOP for an infantry brigade.

Obviously a battle is not a parade ground - but the regiments would strive to keep their alignment with the other regiments and the brigade commander to keep his brigade together to manoeuvre and fight as a whole formation. Without this brigade cohesion there there would be little control, confusion, disorder ect.

In the game the brigades do march in good order but once in contact with enemy they mix themselves up with no regard for brigade cohesion. This results unrealistic combat outcomes because real brigades would strive to stay together.

By the way I don't micromanage, I prefer to direct, delegate.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 51
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 5:16:04 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL
Common in game situations such as pictured below result in unrealistic combat resolution...plus they look bloody awful!


Can anyone really say that the formations shown in this picture are purely cosmetic or a "visual anomaly"? Looks like a fooking mess to me...

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Post #: 52
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:03:16 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

What more can one say.....





Nope - this DEFINITELY doesn't affect player satisfaction with the game ;)

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Post #: 53
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:07:05 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kharkov

Same as above poster, really want to buy this game but when I hear of silly conga line formations and "circle" formations it really puts me off :(


If you let something like this stop you from buying the game your going to miss out on one of the best designs in the history of computer wargaming. Yes, even better than Command Ops.

I've been playing since they were Mad Minute and made the first 2nd Manassas and I never let that circle or wheeling bother me. It's a GAME not a political science class. Play it like a GAME and you'll get hours of fun. If you just use the double time march button on the command console you'll hardly even notice it.

If you can't deal because it's not perfect then I'm sorry for you as really no game is or ever will be perfect. It is one of the best games I've ever played though. Playing and watching 100's of thousands of men onscreen has never been done so well.


aaatoysandmore thanks, you've just made me fall off my chair laughing! Are you on commission? Sorry. I can see you love this game. I like it too, its a wonderful command simulation.

But at the tactical level it falls flat on its face. The unreal formation behaviour affects the tactical outcome. I'm not just talking about aesthetics here - if all the Regiments of a Brigade are pointing in different directions then the combat results would be different from one that keeps good cohesion. I'm complaining because if this game worked at both strategic AND tactical level then it would be an all time classic.

As for potential buyers - do buy it: the more support Norbsoft gets the more this game will develop into something extraordinary! (just be aware its a bit unfinished at the moment)



Common sense from the last poster.

I bought it (I own all of their games) and I respect the good things about it, but this issue with wheeling and formations spoils the whole thing for me and I'm sure many will agree, perhaps most.

The devs need to fix it immediately, once and for good.

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Post #: 54
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:10:32 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

quote:

If your issue is which way the units are facing momentarily then again, you are probably focussing on the wrong element in this particular game.


No my issues are mainly with how the regiments become tangled/scattered loosing all brigade cohesion, not momentary facings. Common in game situations such as pictured below result in unrealistic combat resolution...plus they look bloody awful!







Lol do you really think everything on an actual napoleonic battlefield were ALWAYS in cohesion? I can assure you they were not. Lines broke up, units from the middle routed and so on an so forth.

I think Norb does an EXCELLENT job of just getting these units to maneuver at all. You're just getting too deep into what was and what should be and WHAT IS. Accept the game for what it is and how it plays or just don't play it or buy it at all. That's what they tell ME when I give negative feedback on a game.

Norbs got a fanbase and it's growing and hardly shrinking from players like you who want everything to work perfectly. It's a great game for what it does and portrays. It's never said it was a PERFECT simulation of any battle. I accepted that from the very first game. As I said I have no problem with how things look sometimes in the game. It's FUN to play and give orders and send couriers out.

Potential buyers don't let a few sour grapes ruin this for you. Nobody criticises games as much as I do and when I say it's a great game you can bet it's a great game. Much like Crusader Kings II.

(in reply to JamesLxx)
Post #: 55
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:10:46 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL
Common in game situations such as pictured below result in unrealistic combat resolution...plus they look bloody awful!


Can anyone really say that the formations shown in this picture are purely cosmetic or a "visual anomaly"? Looks like a fooking mess to me...


It amazes me that it's even necessary to argue the case... Obviously these behaviors are ridiculous and obviously they spoil the game for the average player. You would need to have a very special and unusual perspective not to see them as a problem that needs to be corrected urgently.

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Post #: 56
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:28:10 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL
Common in game situations such as pictured below result in unrealistic combat resolution...plus they look bloody awful!


Can anyone really say that the formations shown in this picture are purely cosmetic or a "visual anomaly"? Looks like a fooking mess to me...


It amazes me that it's even necessary to argue the case... Obviously these behaviors are ridiculous and obviously they spoil the game for the average player. You would need to have a very special and unusual perspective not to see them as a problem that needs to be corrected urgently.


Wrong!! cause it's been that way since the first 2nd Manassas and it's still around and so is Norb. Going on what now Norb 8 or 9 years?

EDIT: Chris you would know better than I how long the Take Command series has been around. Isn't it around 8 or 9 years now?

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 6/19/2015 7:29:47 PM >

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Post #: 57
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:38:09 PM   
bungle53

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/3/2005
Status: offline 		Just wanted to add my support for the people who are not happy about this issue.
If its been like this for 8yrs perhaps its about time it was addressed. It may not be such a problem for ACW
but with tighter Napoleonic formations it looks worse.

Because someone has the temerity to criticize its seems they are treated as rather annoying party poopers.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 58
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 6:41:17 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dogsoldier53

Just wanted to add my support for the people who are not happy about this issue.
If its been like this for 8yrs perhaps its about time it was addressed. It may not be such a problem for ACW
but with tighter Napoleonic formations it looks worse.

Because someone has the temerity to criticize its seems they are treated as rather annoying party poopers.


Lol - thanks.

I don't really care about who I upset, as long as I believe I'm raising a genuine issue. The game has major issues in my view. So it's had issues for years. Useful to have that confirmed by the earlier post :)

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Post #: 59
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 7:27:13 PM   
roy64


Posts: 246
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dogsoldier53

Just wanted to add my support for the people who are not happy about this issue.
If its been like this for 8yrs perhaps its about time it was addressed. It may not be such a problem for ACW
but with tighter Napoleonic formations it looks worse.

Because someone has the temerity to criticize its seems they are treated as rather annoying party poopers.


I agree, this has to be the most unfriendly\hostile games forum I've be on for along time, if you mention a problem you better duck.

(in reply to bungle53)
Post #: 60
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