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NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 8:51:09 PM   
Coach Zuck

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 12/25/2002
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		Been "sandboxing" ideas of Non-PH Openings.

How many Subs do people typically sink with All their Betty & Nell units striking @ Manila?

If you add carriers from the KB how does this affect it?

Post #: 1
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 9:05:59 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		My opponent tried a 4 carrier PH while Kaga, Akagi and all Takao LBAs pounded Manila

My Manila losses were:
7 boats sunk: 4 "Fleet", 3 "S"
5 boats severly damaged; I don't remember how many managed to reach Java
8 more with high float damage that although were not at high risk of sinking, they had to go to Java for repairs
I also lost AV Langley and some auxiliaries.

I started the war with only 7 boats (all fleet) available. This with 2 fleet carriers + LBAs attacking Manila... I guess with all 6 KB carriers I most likely would had lost a lot more


(in reply to Coach Zuck)
Post #: 2
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 9:41:43 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to Coach Zuck)
Post #: 3
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 9:44:30 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		I was reading an AAR a while back where someone used a full KB strike in this manner and sunk most of the Manila subs. Can't find it though, and don't recall who it was. Maybe he'll chime in and say. Otherwise I'd just give it a couple of go's and see what happens. Personally I prefer to play an historic first turn, and I've only played the AI as Japan so far.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 4
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 9:45:06 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.


That's who it was.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 5
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 10:01:35 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I feel as if the KB is obligated by game design to concentrate on the BBs at Pearl, when in truth they are much better targets while at sea, IF they dare go there in the early days of the war. So I've concentrated on Manila with the entire KB. I believe it was very effective and decimated the Far East sub fleet along with other critical auxiliaries (especially AS types). But what's more important than the immediate results is the simple fact that the KB is NOT weeks away from the action, indeed it is right in the middle of it off Manila and can head south immediately to aid in the collapse of the Malaysian Peninsular. Getting back from Pearl takes too long and being in South Asia is right where you want to be.... Hal

_____________________________


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 6
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/6/2015 11:47:54 PM   
desicat

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline 		Coach, I know you have seen this but this is for anyone else curious. A superior opening IMHO.

A Road Less Travelled

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 7
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 12:18:58 AM   
Coach Zuck

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 12/25/2002
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat

Coach, I know you have seen this but this is for anyone else curious. A superior opening IMHO.

A Road Less Travelled



Thanks desicat, but yes I have.
Trying to recreate his approach and not having anywhere near his success.
I have used all the Betty & Nell's on Formosa & 2-4 carriers of the KB and have only sunk 7 and heavily damaged 5 - my best results.

Typically only sink 5 and heavily damage 6/7.

< Message edited by Coach Zuck -- 7/7/2015 1:19:59 AM >

(in reply to desicat)
Post #: 8
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 2:39:21 AM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		Those old American BB's at PH are still very useful, and arguably a worthy target. A skilled Allied player (like my current opponent) who uses them right can cause a lot more agony than those subs! :)

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to Coach Zuck)
Post #: 9
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 2:48:43 AM   
Insano

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Joplin, Missouri
Status: offline 		I also recommend the Manila port strike opening. My results with all 6 carriers of the KB:
14 SS sunk
6 heavy damage
2 others hit
5 subs not hit

I had some aircraft on airfield attack which stupidly diluted my strike against the primary target (the submarines). If I had it to do over I would put every plane that would reach on port strike and just deal with the consequences of having those allied airbases and aircraft active from turn 2 on. And I mean everything - Sallies at extended range, Lillies with 100kg bombs if they'll reach, etc.

(in reply to Coach Zuck)
Post #: 10
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 3:02:13 AM   
Insano

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Joplin, Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano

I also recommend the Manila port strike opening. My results with all 6 carriers of the KB:
14 SS sunk
6 heavy damage
2 others hit
5 subs not hit

I had some aircraft on airfield attack which stupidly diluted my strike against the primary target (the submarines). If I had it to do over I would put every plane that would reach on port strike and just deal with the consequences of having those allied airbases and aircraft active from turn 2 on. And I mean everything - Sallies at extended range, Lillies with 100kg bombs if they'll reach, etc.


I just looked it up because I didn't remember: There are 18 Sallies at Takao that will just barely reach at maximum range (half bomb load). The 27 Lillies won't reach - they are one hex short. Still, I'll take the 36 x 250kg more chances to hit a sub!

(in reply to Insano)
Post #: 11
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 5:52:11 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		I'm not that convinced that 10 or so submarines have the same value of 2 battleships sunk + few knocked out for a year

For the next year and 1/2 the dud rate will make fleet submarines almost useles, while S boat's limited range and small torpedoes will also make them of marginal value.
Manila auxiliaries can still be intercepted by cvl ryujo + cruisers at Palau. In my pbem game I Iost all the manila auxiliaries and 10 submarines and I am really not missing them. There are plenty replacements

And KB at Malaya welcomed but not necesarily needed unless you plan mersing on 1 st turn or other historically dubious deep invasions using magic first turn

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 7/7/2015 6:58:37 AM >

(in reply to Insano)
Post #: 12
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 1:00:36 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I didn't mean to imply that the older US BBs (and the UK's older BBs as well) don't have their uses. Of course they do, the actual events in the Pacific prove that many times over. My point is that it would be far better for the Japanese player to sink them at sea where they can not be brought back to life in a year or so. These type of ships are extremely vulnerable to torpedo attacks as their internal water tight integrity is not nearly that of the post World War 1 type BBs. Given their lack of ability to maneuver they are almost "sitting ducks" if they are caught at sea by a Japanese sub. An attack on Manila is also a long term strategy. Those subs stationed there are pretty useless given the US torpedo situation (but they still can provide valuable intelligence!), however in the last two years of the war, those subs eliminated at Manila will be of benefit to the Japanese player once the US torpedoes come back to life. Also don't forget that the "S" class DO have good (relatively speaking) torpedoes (the Mk 10s) and thus need to be nipped in the bud so to speak as well.

_____________________________


(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 13
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/7/2015 3:24:15 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		I think the biggest impact for losing the Manila submarine force is the lack of intelligence they can provide in 1942. I don't sweat the lost torpedo platforms beyond 1943, but I will miss the intelligence and pucker factor a large number of submarines can cause for a roaming KB.

I think there are merits to a KB Manila strike, but I think the loss of the submarines can be offset with prudent use of the old BB's.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to Coach Zuck)
Post #: 14
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/9/2015 10:31:36 AM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		I will rather play December 8th start than try my luck at PH again; twice now zero sunk BBs and massive aircraft losses. And B5Ns refusing to use torpedoes and once some groups didnt even fly. But when it comes to Manile, I think I've managed to bag all or all but one of the subs at Manila twice now. KB+Formosa's bombers including Ki-21s flying at extended range, thats a lot of damage and also will delay forts building should Allies want to stay there instead of withdrawing to Bataan.

Even if some subs dont die right away those that can still move may hit mines or get sunk by other means on their way out or they will be bombed at their destination yards on Java or at Singapore. I've also seen them scuttled at bases falling to the IJ; probably they had suffered more damage and were still in too bad shape to move after 2-3 weeks.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 15
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/9/2015 5:44:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 16
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/9/2015 8:31:36 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline 		On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 17
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/9/2015 9:07:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.


My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 18
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 1:21:10 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Would it actually be possible for the KB to sneak up on the West Coast like that? Certainly commercial shipping would have raised the alarm if not the USN. One of the reasons the Japs took the northern route to Pearl was to stay away from commercial traffic and thus preserve surprise.

_____________________________


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 19
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 5:29:12 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Would it actually be possible for the KB to sneak up on the West Coast like that? Certainly commercial shipping would have raised the alarm if not the USN. One of the reasons the Japs took the northern route to Pearl was to stay away from commercial traffic and thus preserve surprise.


Probably not possible in RL. But I play no HRs and play the code.

It's no fun.

But I've played 1943 in PBEM and my opponent has not.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 20
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 1:16:19 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 21
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 1:20:56 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....


Yes... Except when they dont, but 40 planes more are lost. With the flak changes especially PH is one huge flak trap where planes keep getting killed, missing with their ordnance and hit targets sit on a drydock and massed nav supply. :(

(yeah Im biased)

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 22
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 1:59:00 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.


But if they come at 4,000 feet, then they will be using low ground skill; and AFAIK most pilots are not well trained in it on December 41

Have you tested that results are better?

(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 23
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 4:00:57 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.


But if they come at 4,000 feet, then they will be using low ground skill; and AFAIK most pilots are not well trained in it on December 41

Have you tested that results are better?


They will still be using Ground skill. They do not use Low Ground until they are down under 2000 feet - namely, not until at 1000 feet.

This was a change in one of the earlier betas, and is now in the latest official.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 24
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 4:16:19 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.


That's who it was.




_____________________________


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 25
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 4:39:03 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....


I'd trade 3-4 PH BBs for Sara. Not in terms of VPs, but for utility.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 26
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 5:15:35 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.


My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

I don't get it - I recall there being a range limit on the 'magic move'???

Separate comment: one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 27
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 5:48:23 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.


My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

I don't get it - I recall there being a range limit on the 'magic move'???

Separate comment: one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.


Hrm, let's see...

KB starts at Etorofu. Straight range across the map to San Diego is 112 hexes. If we are looking at 20* normal movement for one phase, this is well within the limit: KB can go 8 hexes per phase at full speed (which is sometimes used for mission speed). I would still set full speed if I were the opponent, as it seems that TFs don't use 20 times the fuel on these magic moves. They are, after all, magical.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 28
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 9:03:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.


This is true. My one regret for not banging on PH preferentially.

However, the trade off is that I lose zip diddly carrier strike aircraft attacking Manila harbor on day 1 versus PH on day 1. That airfield FLAK over PH makes a big difference. Losing 29 (historical) KB pilots versus a veritable handful with a reinforced Manila strike is a counter consideration.

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 29
RE: NON-PH Openings - 7/10/2015 9:45:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.


This is true. My one regret for not banging on PH preferentially.

However, the trade off is that I lose zip diddly carrier strike aircraft attacking Manila harbor on day 1 versus PH on day 1. That airfield FLAK over PH makes a big difference. Losing 29 (historical) KB pilots versus a veritable handful with a reinforced Manila strike is a counter consideration.

Second day strike at Pearl is when flak really starts to hurt!

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 30
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