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"Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea

 
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"Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea - 7/29/2015 12:32:39 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		I have a unit with 28 movement points.

I move a unit forward and uncover some unseen enemy units.

I hit "undo" and my move is undone. And I still have 28 movement points.

If a unit does any action, that provides information about an enemy unit or about a hex, undo should not be available.

Post #: 1
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 1:12:36 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		When playing a PBEM game a beep is given in the playback when an opposing player uses undo. Usually undo is one of those things that's agreed to be 'cheating' in PBEM. Perhaps some way to disable it in those games. In a single player game I and others really don't care what someone does.

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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 1:27:38 PM   
Freyr Oakenshield


Posts: 541
Joined: 4/25/2014
Status: offline 		It wouldn't hurt if it was disabled by default in situations Joe 98 described. I once played PBEM against somebody who used "undone movements" as a legitimate way of recce...

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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 2:39:23 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Another good reason not to pbem

To the original post - I don't want someone else arbitrarily deciding that I am cheating. And if I am cheating against Elmer then I am only cheating myself. Plus and besides, Elmer cheats too.

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Post #: 4
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 7:52:08 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield

It wouldn't hurt if it was disabled by default in situations Joe 98 described. I once played PBEM against somebody who used "undone movements" as a legitimate way of recce...


Been there myself Martin. Exactly why those people run out of opponents. Steel Panthers used to be really easy for people to play part of a turn and if things turned out well save it, if not replay it. That was back in the Leadeaters days before Matrix bought and gutted the club.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/29/2015 8:59:21 PM >

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 5
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 9:29:38 PM   
Fred98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Another good reason not to pbem




So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI!

.


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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 9:41:11 PM   
Freyr Oakenshield


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Another good reason not to pbem




So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI!

.






He was only teasing...


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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/29/2015 11:58:54 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

....in a PBEM game a beep is given in the playback when an opposing player uses undo.

........undo is one of those things that's agreed to be 'cheating' in PBEM.


I suspect the developer thought of my idea and found it too hard and instead used the beep. :)

How about.... I move troops that start a long way from the from to another place a long way from the front. I realise my mistake and hit undo.

Would the opponent still get a beep?



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 8
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/30/2015 1:12:21 AM   
secadegas

 

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quote:


Would the opponent still get a beep?


IN PBEM mode everytime - no matter why or what - you use undo your opponent gets a beep on the playback.

Undo isn't cheating. Sometimes your finger gets nervous and becomes faster than your brain.

Around TOAW community it's for long established that it's always polite to justify to your PBEM opponent any use you make of undo.

Like in most things use it but not abuse it.






< Message edited by Sekadegas -- 7/30/2015 2:14:21 AM >

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 9
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/30/2015 3:38:08 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Who has time to run through 4-10,000 items of a FITE move??

I know some of my opponents have done........but if you're playing me you're safe!!

Also a "beep" - really? I did not know that.....'cos I don't replay massive moves...and ALSO be3cause if I did I have ****ty speakers and I wouldn't have my sound on!!

how about a reply option to "go to" any "undo"'s??

(in reply to secadegas)
Post #: 10
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/30/2015 5:14:20 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Another good reason not to pbem




So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI!

.






He was only teasing...



Say NO to PBEM's - Humans Suck !!

And also say NO to PNG's - they are evil !

(in reply to Freyr Oakenshield)
Post #: 11
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/30/2015 9:49:37 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Say NO to PBEM's - Humans Suck !!

And also say NO to PNG's - they are evil !


Steve (no, the other one) agrees wholeheartedly with Steve (the other one)

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 7/30/2015 7:06:21 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		I've never really cared when someone did an undo if no units near the front were used. No chance of recon there, eh? I have played people whose playback sounded like a garbage truck backing up. I do have problems with that. I think an option to undo the undo would be best.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 13
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 8/13/2015 2:10:10 AM   
walkra

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Lanus, Argentina
Status: offline 		Hi. I think pbem must be played Like in chess. Piece touched, moved piece. I tend to making the mistake of destroying the bridges (because one of the first actions of the right to destroy bridges), but never use the undo button because I think that is how the mistakes made by officers in command of any unit. Undo should not exist (in PBEM).

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Post #: 14
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 9/7/2015 8:14:00 AM   
Blind Sniper


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/9/2008
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline 		Something like in WitE where undo function is greyed out if you get some intel but you can use if you made a mistake in the rear, can be feasible?

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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/15/2015 4:23:04 PM   
Svejk1914

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/24/2014
Status: offline 		There are plenty of games out already that have solved this problem. If your move uncovers previously unseen units or involves combat, you can't undo it. If it doesn't, you can. See Panzer Korps for example.

No beeps required.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 16
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/16/2015 3:14:20 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oldwave

There are plenty of games out already that have solved this problem. If your move uncovers previously unseen units or involves combat, you can't undo it. If it doesn't, you can. See Panzer Korps for example.

No beeps required.


Seriously? Knowing where your enemy is not is as good as knowing where they are. Undo against any opponent is cheating, no ifs ands or buts.

If someone is so inclined as to need to cheat then why bother to play? Is it some mental condition that cannot tolerate losing a GAME? Nothing hinges on your winning or losing except some personal ego issue. Now, if you lose because a game is broken than that might be a little frustrating. But losing simply because the other guy did a better job than you shouldn't do anything more than teach you how to do better next time.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Svejk1914)
Post #: 17
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/16/2015 7:52:57 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Lobster you did not read what he said.

"Undo is cheating. If a move provides info of any sort such as learning the enemy is not there, the undo should be greyed out".

On the other hand if I am moving about begin the lines and I select the wrong unit then obviously I should be able to undo.

Many war games achieved this in the last century.



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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 12:15:06 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 19
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 12:32:10 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

destroying bridges instead of digging in,

I've lost count of the number of times I've meant to dig in a unit and blew the bridge instead. I wish they would move the "blow the
bridge" option to the bottom of the menu list or something.

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Post #: 20
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 3:06:25 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Lobster you did not read what he said.

"Undo is cheating. If a move provides info of any sort such as learning the enemy is not there, the undo should be greyed out".

On the other hand if I am moving about begin the lines and I select the wrong unit then obviously I should be able to undo.

Many war games achieved this in the last century.




Please read the post I am replying to where Oldwave thinks you should get to undo if you don't see enemy units.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/17/2015 4:07:17 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 21
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 3:06:58 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating.


We are talking about moving units.

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 22
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 3:49:15 AM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating.


We are talking about moving units.


Well, rail movement comes to mind. I remember moving units and accidentally clicking on the wrong hex which might change the route to run through enemy ZOC. Undo should definitely be disabled if anything of recon value is found.

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Post #: 23
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 7:05:37 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating.


We are talking about moving units.


Yes I know - but undo is a single function and if you turn it off for movement then you turn it off for everything.

Perhaps one possibility is to have separate undo functions for movement and other things?

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 24
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/17/2015 7:12:55 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

Perhaps one possibility is to have separate undo functions for movement and other things?

Sorry to burst your bubble my friend, but I'm not sure it can be explained adequately to the computer programmer what is desired
EXACTLY so that he produces the function you desire. I used to work as a computer programmer to external specifications and
I know from experience that about 75% of the time the person describing the process leaves something out, embellishes something,
asks what can't physically be done, or somehow misses the full description needed by the programmer and that the whole process
becomes trial and error with at the very least two iterations.

Please describe what function you'd like to see happen.

EDIT: Are you talking about two different "undo" buttons?

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/17/2015 8:13:53 PM >

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RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/19/2015 12:09:28 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Yes - 2 undo buttons, and I am completely familiar with the need to give programmers clear specifications - but this is a general discussion, not a scoping document so no need to be a jerk.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 26
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/19/2015 12:57:19 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

so no need to be a jerk.

I certainly didn't mean to come off as snarky. I apologize if I sounded that way. I'm mainly curious as to how TOAW would work
with two undo buttons. I'm not sure Bob is going to go for that.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

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Post #: 27
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/19/2015 3:05:46 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		I've had unfortunate events happen also. The one I really dislike is accidentally clicking the map when you want to move an entrained unit. Usually it ends up going in the opposite direction I wanted it to. So I just say WTF and get on with the game. So yeah, we all have miss clicks. S*it happens.

Oh, and the one that tops them all, accidentally clicking end of turn.

There is no undo for doing something that stupid.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/19/2015 12:09:23 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 28
RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good... - 12/20/2015 12:42:47 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson


but I'm not sure it can be explained adequately to the computer programmer what is desired

EXACTLY so that he produces the function you desire.



Well, it has been done with other wargames dating back to 1998 so obviously it can be done.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 29
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