RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam)

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/3/2015 3:17:24 PM

cpt flam

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in the center Orel MD become Bryansk Front
a rifle div from Third Army is isolated
bad guys arrives at the gates of Gomel

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/3/2015 3:22:41 PM

cpt flam

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really special in the south
many miles between them and Kiev
but a lot of factories locked in cities by panzer rush
Nikolaev 1Arm 1 HI
Dnepro 16 " 5 "
Zapo 4 " 4 "
it will become harder later
bad news will continue

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/3/2015 3:24:50 PM

chaos45

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Looks like bad news for the Soviets at leningrad- I predict that entire Soviet army encircled permanently next turn and leningrad actually Isolated.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 8:51:10 AM

cpt flam

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T9 or august14 ,1941
in the north as Chaos tell it 8 Army is trapped
supply come by boats in Leningrad

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 8:56:41 AM

cpt flam

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in the center
Kalinin commander from the 24 Army (Reserve Front) become General Polkovnik
Panzers continue their advance
no possibility yet to counter them
so giving ground

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 8:59:25 AM

cpt flam

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south
4 divisions are trapped
losses actually are 140 K for 1 350 K
about 90 divisions destroyed

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 11:30:15 AM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid
Wow... the germAn southern open was completly interesting... and weak. Was a house rule, to not cross the Zbrunic river?

No, it's just that I'm newbie German player, and I always have trouble with opening in the south, with half of von Kleist's divisions frozen on turn 1. So I just focus on encircling those troops around Lvov, and even this usually fails (pocket is reopened and I have to seal it again).

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
The miracle is not that Morvael plays well, but that he has time to play at all.

I promised we will do a rematch when we started the first game in 2011, and I try to hold to my promises. cpt flam was very patient, I delayed this by 6 months, to finish 1.08.05. But I don't think I play well. It takes time to switch from Soviet mindset to German one (and I must say Soviet way is more natural to me, I like unstopabble juggernauts, where I can have every side covered before I advance - that's why I'm bad at RTSes, too much focus on base and security instead of daring raids to grab resources). And I didn't have enough time to spot cpt flam started an AAR on the forum until today!

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
about Odessa, why not do a proper stay behind force of 3 divisions? Its pretty safe (if they rout they arrive in the Crimea) and seems to really throw some axis players as they either have to divert German infantry down there or let it sit behind their lines tieing down Romanian formations.

Yeah, I was expecting Odessa to be real thorn in my side, delaying me for many turns (with that external ring of level 3 forts), especially with AGS' lone FBD heading that way from Rumania.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202
Three strange developments in this AAR.

1) Morvael's push north of Lake Peipus and lack of it toward Pskov - post soviet turn 5. ??? Possibility of a AGN HQBP and isolation of the screening units south of the Luga ??? Very different. cpt flame should have massed those units behind the Luga.

2) What in the heck is cpt flam doing in AGC ??? No delaying force in front of Smolensk, limited d-line on the Dnper north of Smolensk, and a scattered defense network west of Moscow. Counting Pz and Mot units in AGN and AGS, Morvael must have a ton hiding in AGC. I think fireworks may soon erupt to flam's dismay.

3) What in the world is Morvael doing with 9 (count them) Pz/Mot units at Odessa ??? It's a fine Black Sea resort, but in terms of a German AGS strategic landmark, pretty much in left field (a baseball idiom for us Yanks.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
+1, same questions for me....

1) Haven't used a single HQBU in this game (for now - turn 18). All APs went to optimize command structure, replace bad leaders, redistribute support units and build forts (to help garrisons). Instead AGN got heaviest support from Ju-52s transporting fuel (AGC got none, but at times could share some with AGN). My push north via Estonia was forced by early mud around Pskov, and as I didn't want to waste a full turn waiting for it to clear, so I went for the approach through Narva. I never considered doing right hook through Valdai, because of logistics trouble that would no doubt arise in the process. So it was either Pskov-Novgorod (but I don't like the swamps you have to cross north of Luga) or through Narva (the narrow corridor with two rivers is very hard to cross, but then you have very good terrain to head east and isolate Leningrad, bar some rough terrain).

2) I liked that it was easy to reach Smolensk and cross Dniepr, was expecting heavy fight around the land bridge. I couldn't push further east because of mud and logistics (FBD wasn't even in Minsk yet if I remember correctly), so I decided to go along the front, and thus keep the same distance to railhead. Guderian was really hampered, with 20-30 MPs per turn and no air refuel. Further east it would be even worse than that.

3) Guess what, mud pushed me south instead of east, but I really wanted to clear Odessa as fast as possible, hence Panzer help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring
It looks quite a well considered checker board to me. Units are well placed to sap Axis MP, and I'm sure he'll have something more substantial preparing behind.

I'd say the attraction of such a sharp drive to the south is the potential to disrupt a great length of the Russian line, deal with Odessa early but stay close to cheesy supply source in Romania so an abrupt, fully fuelled turn east or north-east is possible.

I really didn't want to struggle with multiple lines of good troops in level 2 forts that awaited me in northern Ukraine. So I left them to be followed by infantry (who got no FBD behind them, so mobile troops there would really be hampered, infantry less so). Southern path was my chosen strategy from the start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Hes to far south. He should be over river by turn 4 or 5, but his game.

Yeah, that's what happens when a newbie plays the game. You all played way more than me (1 vsAI as German, 1 PBEM as Soviet and now 2nd PBEM as German), I just spent a lot of time tinkering with the engine, so I may have some experience with the rules/mechanical part but no gut feeling to base on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
Looks like hes making decent progress in the north and center but is far, far behind in the south. So far behind in the south that you should probably just shift southern forces to the north and retreat in front of him as none of that space matters by now if you have been pulling industry.

North and center had priority from the start, they got most of the early reinforcements, 3/4 FBDs, 6/8 (or 5/7) transports and were first to be reorganized. Many good Soviet units remaining in the south was acceptable for me. I understand they were staying there, because railway capacity was scarce and dedicated to bringing new troops to the front and for factory evacuation. But I must say I really enjoyed the fighting withdrawal offered by cpt flam, instead of the common "run to the hills" strategy preffered by many players. I really enjoyed there were some battles to fight and the constant isolation-counter isolation moves. I had trouble (read: not enough troops) to cover my encirclements fully, so I accepted at times that they will be reopened and even some of my units encircled for a while, because this kept the situation fluid. Leningrad was a prime example of such dance, it took three turns (or four) to fully seal the encirclement and block the city, with both sides having some encircled troops at start of their turns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
Looks like bad news for the Soviets at leningrad- I predict that entire Soviet army encircled permanently next turn and leningrad actually Isolated.

Finally, in second half of the summer, bad things started to happen for the Soviets. If not for them, my early drive could be seen as a disaster.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 12:16:54 PM

chaos45

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I think once random weather is fixed to not trigger mud automatically early in the summer the early Soviet defense is going to be tough. As rail is much more limited now for the Soviet side early on.

So harder to re-locate defenses to the panzer pushes, esp while evacuating factories if the German player is doing a good job pushing in all 3 sectors.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/9/2015 12:34:41 PM

morvael

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But it's a great comfort to know there will be no mud, you can be bolder than you'd normally be if mud could still happen. So Axis will have to be more careful from August on (at a time when their supply is already stretched), while they can be bolder in July. But early on there are not so many great factory cities in reach.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 9:20:31 AM

cpt flam

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Turn 10 or August 21, 1941
in the north, pocket has been anihilated
they continue to push a bit

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 9:23:57 AM

cpt flam

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center see them closing toward Rzhev and Vyazma
first counter attack by 20 Army against XX Korps
they must retreat
which is good for troop moral

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 9:28:15 AM

cpt flam

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in the south, we must leave a lot of ground to don't be trapped
i change zoom level to show the treat

bad news in production too: not enough ressources to create supply

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 11:36:19 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpt flam

Turn 10 or August 21, 1941
in the north, pocket has been anihilated
they continue to push a bit

looks like morvael is going to clear out Leningrad in record time, be good for his chances to renew the drive on Moscow. In the south looks good as well - as you say, you now need to abandon a lot to avoid repeating a certain historical foul up

?

do think Odessa is either something you defend seriously or not at all. I'm starting to wonder if setting up the bulk of 9 Army (ie using the non port forts as well) is a good idea? Ok you seriously weaken your lines on the lower Dneipr but its going to be a real thorn in the side of the axis player.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/12/2015 12:37:19 PM >

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 12:17:54 PM

morvael

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Stay tuned for next chapter, watch as the drama unfolds

Odessa is thorn for those who send FBD via Rumania. Then it's worth stalling them at the forts for longest possible time. But how can the Soviet player make sure it won't be ignored and bypassed, if Axis strategy is to send AGS more to the north? Early aggressive recon to locate FBD perhaps? Checking rail repair progress by looking at hex tooltips?

edit: it may not be fully visible, but Dnepr was crossed in Kremenchug by one panzer corps and some allies.

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/12/2015 1:26:38 PM >

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 12:21:24 PM

morvael

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I admit I was surprised Leningrad was not fully stuffed with troops, for me it was lightly defended. But it was already stripped of industry, so perhaps cpt flam didn't want to "invest" resources there. Or maybe my early severing of the rail link prevented reinforcement to be sent? Or rail capacity was scarce and there was no way to send more men there?

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/12/2015 1:39:55 PM

sillyflower

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The defence seems to be neither fish nor fowl(an english expression meaning 'neither one thing nor the other' for those not familiar with our idiom). Enough to make a juicy pocket but not enough to defend with.

L'gad (with Orienbaum) has 10% of the Russian rail capacity (30/298 points) and a higher percentage of his remaining capacity, so cutting it off will hurt him strategically under the new rail regime.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 12/12/2015 2:46:24 PM >

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/13/2015 2:56:34 PM

cpt flam

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with losses to come rail capacity will be scarce
Turn 11 or August 28, 1941
in the north German meet Finns
Leningrad is doom in few weeks

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/13/2015 3:00:42 PM

cpt flam

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front was nearly quiet in the center
last week Ivan Bezugly (Para corps) become G�n�ral Leitenant
one attack against an infantry division in front of Vyazma

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/13/2015 3:06:15 PM

cpt flam

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the south saw the disaster preview

it was possible to reopen the pocket
we punished Hungarian motorised brigades
Iosif Khorun ( 9 Army- South Front) was promoted G�n�ral Leitenant

I am learning hard way their movempent capacity

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/13/2015 9:27:46 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpt flam

the south saw the disaster preview
it was possible to reopen the pocket
we punished Hungarian motorised brigades
Iosif Khorun ( 9 Army- South Front) was promoted G�n�ral Leitenant

I am learning hard way their movempent capacity

By turn 10 RH's are at or near rivers and its time to give ground or lose allot

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 7:09:50 AM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
By turn 10 RH's are at or near rivers and its time to give ground or lose allot

Don't embarass me, my railheads were still quite far away from rivers at this time

I kept going by air resupply...

edit P.S. I really like how it turned to be a near historical Kiev encirclement. Guderian slowly trudging from the north (with just 20-25 MP per turn due to no air resupply) and faster von Kleist linking with him from the south.

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/14/2015 8:13:54 AM >

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 7:12:30 AM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
L'gad (with Orienbaum) has 10% of the Russian rail capacity (30/298 points) and a higher percentage of his remaining capacity, so cutting it off will hurt him strategically under the new rail regime.

Yeah, aside from factory hunting it's very good to capture and hold Soviet rail hubs. Slows down the speed at which reinforcements from Siberia arrive.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 1:18:48 PM

chaos45

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That huge pocket in the south will be pretty crushing to the Soviets, esp combined with the early victory at leningrad.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 1:22:14 PM

morvael

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If I could keep it sealed until November, then perhaps yes. But I had to destroy it to shorten front, so they will be rebuilt for free...

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 1:32:55 PM

sillyflower

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7 paras will never come back, and the 2 cav xx will cost APs to replace. The others will cost a stockpile of arms point + men and as for the lost trucks...............

Anyway, bragging rights are worth more than anything else of course. Get matrix to sticky the post

-it's the least they can do for you.

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/14/2015 1:33:03 PM

chaos45

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Its not exactly a free rebuild---it takes manpower and armaments---which the Soviets barely have enough of to refill/rebuild the new and incoming units as.

Everything you kill after the first 4/5 turns makes the Soviets take longer ot rebuild over the long haul. As I have said many times manpower and armaments for the Soviets arent infinite if you lose to many men and to much equipment it will cripple the soviets ability to counterattack esp with coupled with heavy industry losses.

Even doing excellently and disbanded un-needed air HQ/airbases- the soviets manpower runs out around Turn 6 or so and its down to just new recruiting, and armaments starts to run out around T17 or so. An thats with low Soviet losses.

The new incoming units quickly eat most of what the soviets are building so anything extra lost just drives you deeper into a hole that takes longer to build/recruit your way out of. Not to mention heavy losses then makes the Germans ability to inflict heavier losses later in 1941 and in summer 1942 easier. The snowball effect.

So those units permanently lost- dont forget that mountain division and not sure but tank bdes rebuild or no??? you get so many and they are so much junk till tank corps I never paid attention if they rebuild for free early on.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 12/14/2015 2:40:47 PM >

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/24/2015 8:50:20 AM

cpt flam

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Turn 12 or setember 4, 1941
only Leningrad continue the fight
we lost the panzergroup which was here

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/24/2015 8:53:25 AM

cpt flam

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in the center
the clash continue in front of Vyazma
first Guards units are promoted
2 rifle XX, a Para X and some Art units

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/24/2015 8:56:00 AM

cpt flam

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in the south
16 Panzer XX took a hit

actually i'm playing turn 21
manpower and armament pools are not dry yet

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RE: Rodina Struggle (Morvael vs Cpt Flam) - 12/24/2015 6:00:43 PM

Peltonx

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chaos most people don't build what you do so they don't run out of stuff so soon.

The things they build are not armament/manpower hogs.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2015 7:01:53 PM >

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