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RE: Luck or stupid AI?

 
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RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 8:37:45 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

...
Not very impressed, I am afraid...

It seems that:
- as far as RPG goes, it seems that all you have to do is keep Hitler happy, following his directives. What your generals in the field think of you does not seem that relevant (just chrome ?)
- as to the real wargame, you play a grinding game with AGC, and can be reckless in the North and South. The AI seems not that good - was it not possible to cut off the germans in Leningrad ?

Replayability does not seem that great either, unless you're interested in the RPG "game" (note: I do like good RPG games!)

Still waiting on the fence, following with interest "real-life" experiences like this one. Let's see what the Russians are still able to do...


i can answer some of these points if you like, or wait for Vic to reply even...

quote:

as far as RPG goes, it seems that all you have to do is keep Hitler happy, following his directives.
in some ways you can't keep a madman happy, you try, but as we will or can find out, he tends to change his mind and goals alot of the time, depending on the settings you have chosen at the start.

quote:

What your generals in the field think of you does not seem that relevant
on easy, which is normal mode with all setting off, except FOW, no not really, some slight bonuses are lost, but nothing major, ramp up the difficulty slider and your in for a different game tbh.

quote:

you play a grinding game with AGC, and can be reckless in the North and South
up to a point, it follow the real war, so if that's how you see it played in one campaign, that's also fine and true, but not all either.

quote:

The AI seems not that good
i hope not also, easy or normal mode is for learning the game, if it was any different, how would anyone learn? a true test is alter it, as you will or may see later on when others play on different settings, which different options chosen, each level is different regarding what the AI will and can do.

quote:

was it not possible to cut off the germans in Leningrad
yes quite easy to tbh, but not in all games, on all levels of difficulty, with the fins out, it's harder, but i'm sure if the player on display here now replayed today, he would learn from this and keep them in the war next time for extra help regarding Leningrad.

glad to see any interest and opinions either way, ask any questions you like, someone will always answer, if me sometimes i even get some answer right, but i don't always so can be corrected when wrong

edited typo again lol


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3976280&mpage=1&key=�

above is a basic guide to difficulty levels in the game and reasons why each ones are different, while some offer a slight advantage to one side or the other, some are more than than others, with the main difficulty slider being set on 5 levels of ability, everyone atm is playing on normal, unless they have mastered the game or are finding it too easy, which can be easily altered to make more of a challenge to suit any ability, even one as poor as mine even

< Message edited by zakblood -- 11/28/2015 10:10:46 AM >

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 31
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 8:56:20 AM   
stonestriker

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		Well, if Notonestepback has gone with Hitler, then he will probably change his mind soon, so September 1st he will be summonsed to a conference where Hitler will tell that Rostov is the key to winning the war. November 1st he can again change his mind regarding the final objective, and then he needs to keep it through the winter.

He seems to be playing very well, but some amount of luck might have been involved in that no garrisons might have spawned in Riga, Talinn or Leningrad (however, I do not know this).

As Zakblood writes, you do not want to piss off anyone TOO much as they all have the capacity to make your life miserable. If AGN is well-entrenched, sure you can ignore Leeb for the time, but once the counter-attacks starts, you are going to suffer command penalties which will make it harder to react.









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Post #: 32
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 10:55:17 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting post on the game. That one SS unit in the north, one push and it's cut off. Good job playing the game and I am sure the AI will do something different next time.

(in reply to stonestriker)
Post #: 33
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 11:34:05 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		@notonestepback

Thanks for sharing. Always looking out for new player strategies.

It might have been luck, but I am sure the AI could always be improved as well. I PM-ed you to ask for a savefile. It would help me analyze and probably improve the AI a bit.

Furthermore the Soviet AI does play differently each time. It might be more or less prone to retreat on each playthrough. Also it might have emphasised its reinf. armies on a different theatre, like center or south.

Anyway thanks for sharing. I love reading these kinds of posts.

Best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 34
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 2:48:42 PM   
etsadler

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/27/2011
Status: offline 		On the face of it I could say that, yes, the SU could have done more aggressively against AGN. But, is that because they "should" or because we know that in the game displayed that Leningrad is the "objective"? If the SU has chosen "Defend Moscow" as their objective, then it would make a lot of sense that they wouldn't be overly concerned about Leningrad. After all, it doesn't really lead to anywhere else, the German forces there look pretty bottled up, etc.

However, I think it is fair to ask, should the SU be on the lookout for overextended German forces that can be strategically cut off? I think that should be yes, and this looks like a likely target, but the SU doesn't have endless troops (as much as it might seem like it) so where does anyone suggest they take troops from to make the cut off and assault on AGN?

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 35
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 3:22:57 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		I e-mailed you the save Vic. I originally made this post because I was wondering if the AI was off...

(in reply to etsadler)
Post #: 36
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 3:43:28 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		Vic will reply regarding his points on the save, for me it's (AI) playing well for level / difficulty selected, a few other parts ticked, and it may have been a different story, as you will (and us if you post it) when you start your next epic struggle in the east, on new settings, for me i wouldn't jump right in and alter too many, as the AI gets very keen on some, so the challenge can be high, so move a odd one and replay and see what you think, and leave feedback and comments then, look forward to a end game mind you on the one your on

would love tbh a jump to uber hard level then see how it plays, i don't have your skill level to do it justice either, as when i try it i get slaughtered too soon and don't make in anywhere near your depth into the east

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 37
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 3:52:43 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		I'm a bit concerned though that the best path might be to do whatever Hitler wants in the decisions to get the PP's and then do what you want at the expense of your subordinates, and it might not matter.

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 38
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 5:01:26 PM   
Queeg


Posts: 495
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

I'm a bit concerned though that the best path might be to do whatever Hitler wants in the decisions to get the PP's and then do what you want at the expense of your subordinates, and it might not matter.


But Hitler often changes his mind. Let's see how his game ends.

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 39
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 5:05:11 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

I'm a bit concerned though that the best path might be to do whatever Hitler wants in the decisions to get the PP's and then do what you want at the expense of your subordinates, and it might not matter.


The effect of Hitler is primarily 1) the amount of PPs given each turn, 2) the effect of his desires on PP cost calculations for the decisions.

Maintaining a good relationship with subordinates is critical. Example, poor relations with the theater commanders disallows bonuses for combat; another example, bad relations with Gercke and Wagner leads to slower truck and rail repair and train scheduling, etc.

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 40
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:30:30 PM   
etsadler

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/27/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

I'm a bit concerned though that the best path might be to do whatever Hitler wants in the decisions to get the PP's and then do what you want at the expense of your subordinates, and it might not matter.


As far as job security, if Hitler liked you everyone else could go pound sand.

But as others have said, if they don't like you you job is harder, you just don't have to worry about being fired!

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 41
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:30:50 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		September 18th, the north front of the Soviets breaks, the 18th is linking with the 4th PZ gruppe

North:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 42
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:31:32 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		In the Center I pull back a panzer group to rest and refit, we are close to Smolensk.

Center:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 43
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:32:04 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		In the south we are nearing the Crimea, I rest a pz group as well

South:






Attachment (1)

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
Post #: 44
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:32:50 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

I'm a bit concerned though that the best path might be to do whatever Hitler wants in the decisions to get the PP's and then do what you want at the expense of your subordinates, and it might not matter.


As far as job security, if Hitler liked you everyone else could go pound sand.

But as others have said, if they don't like you you job is harder, you just don't have to worry about being fired!



The funny thing is I'm a manager in real life for a financial firm. My boss's opinion matters WAY more than my subordinates, I approached the game as such.

(in reply to etsadler)
Post #: 45
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 7:48:27 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ultimately the only true test of your skill is to play another human. No matter how good the AI is it can't match the problem solving ability of the human mind. I only bother with AI to learn the game. But I accept for some they prefer AI. It is very difficult for a programmer to counter human pattern recognition, which eventually will bring down the AI.

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Post #: 46
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 9:59:08 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Franciscus,

The relationship system is threaded throughout the entire game. Keeping Hitler happy is only one small aspect of it.

There are some serious repercussions with having poor relationships with various characters.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 47
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/28/2015 10:09:44 PM   
Panzeh

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline 		I would say it's a bit odd to lose Leningrad from the south with the two armies watching Finland freed up by Finnish surrender.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 48
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/29/2015 12:11:29 AM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Onestep,

I've taken a look at the save game and it appears that you're a decent player and have done a few things that the AI wasn't expecting.

You've also been playing the Officer cards each turn. Don't need to do that. They are fire and forget. Play once and only thereafter if you want to change them.

The AI greatly appreciates your efforts here and will be sharpening it's pencil.

There's also a general issue of difficulty. At the default normal level our aiming point is for a decent player to be able to win the game. One aspect of this is the bonus fuel that you start with. AGN is given more fuel than they had historically to give the player a leg up. You've made excellent use of this to motor your way to Leningrad. It's been tweaked downward a touch.

Also keep in mind that you've chosen a strategy of 'Support Hitler' which is the easiest of the three available. You gain plenty of PP's that you wouldn't with the others.

The downside is that you are required to take Hitler's objective. Hitler can call a conference early each month and can feasibly change his mind. The last conference is in early November and you've got the opportunity to lobby Von Brauchitsch and Keitel (from memory) to help influence his opinion. If he decides on either of the other two theatres then Leningrad won't win the game for you unless you can capture them as well.

Taking all three is an instant win.

I noticed that you've seriously p*ssed off General Wagner which is going to have adverse implications for your logistics in the other two theatres.

Interesting to see how it goes. Best of luck.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to Panzeh)
Post #: 49
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/29/2015 2:15:16 PM   
gap23518

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 11/8/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks for this post! good one....OP gave me a chance to explore new strategies. I was able to hit Leningrad but unable to take it...but the 4th looks in better shape to do so soon. What surprised me is the gutsy Soviet response to take Finland out of the war as well as the brutal defense against the 18th. They just wont give up that little toe hold and are holding up the 18th....amazing!
I think keeping Hitler happy will get you pretty well set up on your PP. I want to toy with taking the 3rd to AGN.

For the developers of this game: I have the other games and this one...for me...is a winner. I was actually thinking about this game last night...what to try...what not to try. That to me is the point of a
good game...its entertainment! Its stable! Its dang fun! Thanks. And thanks for the active forum.

I didn't do as well as the OP but I have a different (FUN) game going....

< Message edited by gap23518 -- 11/29/2015 3:17:23 PM >

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 50
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/29/2015 2:21:07 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		as long as you enjoy it, play it how you wish, i do

(in reply to gap23518)
Post #: 51
RE: Luck or stupid AI? - 11/29/2015 5:12:08 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:


There's also a general issue of difficulty. At the default normal level our aiming point is for a decent player to be able to win the game


For playing the AI the difficulty level objective has been as follows:

Difficulty level has been designed to make normal level winnable by a very good or an experienced player.
Challenging should be much less evident to win for a very good or an experienced player.
And Hard should prove very tough.
Never mind the levels above.

Though playing the Soviets against the German AI should be slightly easier than my statements on the levels above.

Best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 52
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