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RE: ETA? - 7/3/2016 11:11:35 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1
I have no problems with the waiting, well I do, but I can understand it. What I can't understand is this policy of radio silence, don't know what is suppose to accomplish.
Let the testers talk, let's hear about the new features, let's hear about the bugs too. Let us see the unfinished new interface, keep the interest alive in other people than the handful of old timers who check this forum.
Well, that's my opinion.

yup, agreed...

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Post #: 61

RE: ETA? - 7/3/2016 5:12:14 PM

Ratzki

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Any publicity is good publicity.

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Post #: 62

RE: ETA? - 7/3/2016 11:22:54 PM

fogger

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another update was posted on the week-end

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Post #: 63

RE: ETA? - 7/3/2016 11:40:46 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

another update was posted on the week-end

Actually, Fogger dude, I think we can count the one before that because I for one was still using the one ending in 8 before 9 and 0
came out. So I'm thinking there were actually two separate products that Ralph produced. He's on the ball lately. I'm glad.

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Post #: 64

RE: ETA? - 7/4/2016 3:02:53 PM

fogger

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Larry it is not that I am splitting hairs with you mate but if you look at the date time stamp the 8 & 9 were released in June and were the two I reported in post 38 above. The one ending in 0 has a date time stamp of 2nd July. But I do agree that Ralph and others (I do not know if we are allowed to say who) are working like a drovers dog.

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Post #: 65

RE: ETA? - 7/4/2016 3:07:48 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
Larry it is not that I am splitting hairs with you mate but if you look at the date time stamp the 8 & 9 were released in June and were the two I reported in post 38 above. The one ending in 0 has a date time stamp of 2nd July. But I do agree that Ralph and others (I do not know if we are allowed to say who) are working like a drovers dog.

OH. Yeah, I missed that little detail. Happy July 4 dude.

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Post #: 66

RE: ETA? - 7/5/2016 2:07:30 AM

fogger

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Another update was released last night. Things are happening. Do not give up. The coldest hours of the night are just before sunrise.

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Post #: 67

RE: ETA? - 7/20/2016 1:00:52 PM

fogger

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7 updates so far this month

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Post #: 68

RE: ETA? - 7/21/2016 12:51:55 AM

FF_1079

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

7 updates so far this month

Any UI/Graphics previews, or still all internal code?

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Post #: 69

RE: ETA? - 7/21/2016 1:06:44 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

Any UI/Graphics previews, or still all internal code?

Ralph has devised the game engine to use COL files to designate the color scheme of the units and the FITE2 team has devised the
color code for FITE2 and it looks pretty good to me. I've done a COL file for the Barbarosa '41 mod I'm working on and I've made the
fighters all black icons and the bombers are grey so I can better tell them apart.

The UI has changed from the old version so that it's streamlined now and more intuitive to use. Game play is faster now. The turns go
faster. More of the information you need at your fingertips is there now.

Something I've been lobbying for is the ability to click on an item of equipment on the Inventory Dialog and be presented with a dialog
that lists all the units that use that item of equipment in one or more units ( in several formations ). So that if you need to see a list
of P-39 squadrons you just click on the P-39 label for that equipment and you'll be presented with the four or five squadrons that have
those in their inventory. Or if you need to see the formations that have the P-38t tank, or where are all your Stuka's, etc. So far it's
more of a change than we would like to tackle at this stage of the development process so it'll have to be a future version that does
that but I'm hopeful that someday it'll do something like that.

There was a problem with one of the versions and Ralph had a new version out the same day as I recall. Things are jumping now.

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Post #: 70

RE: ETA? - 7/22/2016 1:49:58 AM

SMK-at-work

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oooerr....that's not making the antici............................................pation go away!! :D

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Post #: 71

RE: ETA? - 7/22/2016 4:37:05 AM

FF_1079

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That sounds very encouraging Larry, you hit the nail on the head with your comments on making info easier to access. Thank you for the update, it's much appreciated.

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Post #: 72

RE: ETA? - 7/22/2016 11:08:29 AM

Crossroads

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Post #: 73

RE: ETA? - 7/23/2016 8:46:39 PM

ncc1701e

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Thanks fogger and larry for the update.

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Post #: 74

RE: ETA? - 7/28/2016 8:16:44 PM

biddrafter2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1
I have no problems with the waiting, well I do, but I can understand it. What I can't understand is this policy of radio silence, don't know what is suppose to accomplish.
Let the testers talk, let's hear about the new features, let's hear about the bugs too. Let us see the unfinished new interface, keep the interest alive in other people than the handful of old timers who check this forum.
Well, that's my opinion.

yup, agreed...

It is a catch-22. I've been on all sides of this same dilemma for another game (baseball). I was a programmer on the game and wasn't allowed (contractually) to say anything about schedules despite massive clamoring for info on the forums. I've managed a team of developers on a game and been required to dance around the release dates, trying to protect my devs from the initial poor timeline estimates while keeping business folks satisfied that work is being accomplished competently despite longer dev time than expected. I've been a dedicated gamer for games that were brilliant in their time but retain mostly a group of increasingly embittered die-hards. I've worked on a game that had only a single dev left, working below market rate for the love of the game.

The dilemma for Slitherine is simple: Let people watch the sausage being made, which can be ugly if there is only a single dev, and the die-hards *might* be happier but it looks awful to new potential buyers of the game. Or, pretend everything is going fine, with no official updates, so that newbies are not scared away and hope the die-hard will die-harder. No good resolution.

The default mode in the industry tends to punish the die-hards.

As a lark, I actually offered some of my coding time to the TOAW dev a few years back but it didn't go anywhere.

Without knowing the details of IV, it sounds like it is quite playable currently and the update frequency sounds like a single developer working part time with multiple ongoing issues. It would be nice to know how many issues are being resolved in each update. I've found that the frequency of fixes actually goes up as the end nears, because the remaining issues tend to be minor and faster to fix. Here is to hoping for Christmas release!

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Post #: 75

RE: ETA? - 7/28/2016 11:56:27 PM

fogger

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Updates
May 5
June 2
July 12

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Post #: 76

RE: ETA? - 7/29/2016 12:08:53 AM

larryfulkerson

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My NDA precludes me from giving you the names of the updates but I usually download the new version the same day it comes out
so if you look at the date and time of the file that's pretty close to the release date. I started blanking out the names of the files but
I thought maybe giving the last digit of the name might be okie dokie. As you can see we've been getting a lot of updates and we've
tested them all so far. Each new update fixes something that needs fixing so we're getting closer to the finished product all the time.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 77

RE: ETA? - 7/29/2016 3:35:42 PM

josant

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I also dont understand this policy of radio silence, you only have to look at how many new messages are put in the toaw 3 forum and in the toaw 4 forum (nearly 0 per month), people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

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Post #: 78

RE: ETA? - 7/29/2016 7:12:50 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

NO - I am still looking forward to it even if I regret this radio silence. This is not like this is a brand new game that will revolutionize computer wargame. It did already for me in 1998.

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Post #: 79

RE: ETA? - 7/31/2016 6:31:41 AM

76mm

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quote:

The dilemma for Slitherine is simple: Let people watch the sausage being made, which can be ugly if there is only a single dev, and the die-hards *might* be happier but it looks awful to new potential buyers of the game. Or, pretend everything is going fine, with no official updates, so that newbies are not scared away and hope the die-hard will die-harder. No good resolution.

I don't really agree with this...there have been many other games that resolved this "dilemma" rather well, such as CSME and the recent Barbarossa game here at Matrix, the CM games, etc. The main issue is that it takes some effort and involvement by the developer, which some are not willing to do. It also takes good judgement to decide when/how to put things out there.

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Post #: 80

RE: ETA? - 7/31/2016 1:51:00 PM

fogger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

The main issue is that it takes some effort and involvement by the developer, which some are not willing to do. It also takes good judgement to decide when/how to put things out there.

The problem with this is that it would take Ralph away from putting ALL his effort into developing the game.Things are moving. In July there were 13 Updates (another one last night). If Ralph had to put some effort into giving general reports, then there may have only been 8,9,10,11?????? updates in July. Work that he has done in July would not have been done until August.

I know that waiting is a real pain in the butt but look at the big picture.

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Thought for the day:
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.

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Post #: 81

RE: ETA? - 7/31/2016 8:43:11 PM

76mm

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@fogger whatever, all devs have limited time, some are willing to engage with the community, some aren't. You and other privy people keep talking about how many updates there have been, etc., but us plebes have no idea about the substance of these updates--fixing a typo or some substantive fixes--so constant reference to x number of updates in time period y are not particularly helpful.

Devs will do what they want, as will gamers. All I know is that with devs that have engaged with the community, I will usually buy their games to support their efforts. With other devs I will buy their games when/if I've read enough reviews to get comfortable that whatever they've done is interesting to me, which I'll have to figure out from other gamers.

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Post #: 82

RE: ETA? - 7/31/2016 9:10:59 PM

BradK82

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The only thing that determines buying for me is how much is there compared to 3.4. I would rather wait for release to know that anyway. I need people to tell me how some of the old scenarios that I love will play with the new version. If I think it is worth it I will buy. If not I will stay with 3.4. Regardless updates or no updates right now will not change this. We pretty much what TOAW is -right, so I will be happy either way.

< Message edited by BradK82 -- 7/31/2016 11:42:44 PM >

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RE: ETA? - 8/1/2016 11:14:50 PM

biddrafter2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I don't really agree with this...there have been many other games that resolved this "dilemma" rather well, such as CSME and the recent Barbarossa game here at Matrix, the CM games, etc. The main issue is that it takes some effort and involvement by the developer, which some are not willing to do. It also takes good judgement to decide when/how to put things out there.

Some effort and involvement is the main issue? Good judgement is required? Why.... it is all so simple! Someone let Ralph know immediately.

Your comment is *exactly* why so many companies refuse to perform anything other than cursory and non-interactive communication before a game release. The same individuals clamoring for information beforehand also tend to be the same ones who complain the loudest when published timelines are not met due to unforeseen difficulties. For single developer labors of love like TOAW this problem is magnified because of lack of dev cover. The benefit of no communication is less soul-sucking irritation of the dev(s) with the cost of making the die-hards angry.

This is why it is a "dilemma", to use your scare quotes. But the die-hards are more likely to come back than the dev and so we see this over and over.

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RE: ETA? - 8/2/2016 3:16:47 AM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

The problem with this is that it would take Ralph away from putting ALL his effort into developing the game.Things are moving. In July there were 13 Updates (another one last night). If Ralph had to put some effort into giving general reports, then there may have only been 8,9,10,11?????? updates in July. Work that he has done in July would not have been done until August.

I know that waiting is a real pain in the butt but look at the big picture.

Do you seriously think people believe taking five or ten minutes to post a message is going to have a negative effect on development?

I will buy this game only if I am still obligated to when it is eventually released.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 8/2/2016 3:19:27 AM >

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RE: ETA? - 8/2/2016 4:01:50 AM

FF_1079

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Yeah, it takes 10 minutes max to make a monthly ( or even bi-monthly ) post on game progress. There has been considerable progress as evidenced by posts from Fogger and Larry, why "Ralph" has decided to not update is between him and Matrix. The argument that people might be peeved and argue with the dev's over development is spurious, want a non-interactive environment with your customers, go to work for the US Postal service ....

I'm not hammering ANYONE for the pace of development, both parties ( customers and developers ) want the best game achievable. If you don't have the skills to post updates, allow Matrix or a beta tester to DO IT FOR YOU. This is not like inventing LINUX, it's an upgrade of existing code. I am sure it is both time consuming and difficult, but not updating progress is a relic of the 80's and early 90's.

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RE: ETA? - 8/2/2016 4:55:16 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

I also dont understand this policy of radio silence, you only have to look at how many new messages are put in the toaw 3 forum and in the toaw 4 forum (nearly 0 per month), people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

Who?

non posting is not necessarily a sign of non interest - for me it is a sign of "watching, watching, watching....nothing to say atm..."

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Post #: 87

RE: ETA? - 8/2/2016 5:57:39 PM

Meyer1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

I also dont understand this policy of radio silence, you only have to look at how many new messages are put in the toaw 3 forum and in the toaw 4 forum (nearly 0 per month), people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

Who?

non posting is not necessarily a sign of non interest - for me it is a sign of "watching, watching, watching....nothing to say atm..."

Regardless of individual cases such as yours, I think that the scarce forum activity is a pretty good sign of general lack of interest. Besides, people have to know that the game exists to be interested in it. TOAW need new players.

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RE: ETA? - 8/3/2016 5:10:13 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jakobscalpel
Your comment is *exactly* why so many companies refuse to perform anything other than cursory and non-interactive communication before a game release. The same individuals clamoring for information beforehand also tend to be the same ones who complain the loudest when published timelines are not met due to unforeseen difficulties.

I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion, most of the people here are complaining about lack of information, not delays (despite the fact that the delays have been very significant). In any event, I think that the main reason most devs don't interact with the community is that they don't think it is very important to do so.

Personally I don't care much when/if this game comes out; all I know is that I'm much more likely to buy it if there seems to be a community (based on forum chatter) and the dev engages with that community.

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RE: ETA? - 8/3/2016 12:10:00 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
and the dev engages with that community.

Actually he used to. And the vast majority of the communities reaction to his communications was positive and supportive. Why he quit baffles me. It doesn't take but five minutes to say 'hi and things are going well but we have bug a, b and c to iron out this week'. Look at the stuff the single dev for John Tiller Campaign Series gave that game's community.

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Post #: 90