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RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End

 
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RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/4/2017 8:39:18 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I noticed in one test airfield attack that it appears if you attack Base X with its AA defenses, the AI can commit all other airbase AA weapons associated with the parent HQ. So although you bomb one base, you may be defending against flak from several bases. A bit too abstract for me, but there it is.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 121
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/5/2017 1:43:01 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
As usual.....



All the bombing of Airfields took place at night Dinglir?


Yes, all my attacks done by long range bombers are done by night. I do not believe that sending in 200 or so IL-4's in a daylight attack on a fighter airfield is such a good idea.

The large Soviet losses seem to suggest that a lot of figting tool place in the air and maybe the German losses are due to something like fatigued and inexperienced pilots trying to land at night.

I do not know for sure.



Would be interesting to know the actual casualties from Pelton of what he sustained. Thank you for your answer. I think I will run some test :)

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(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 122
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/7/2017 4:23:27 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Losses in the air has been extremely heavy this turn. With 664 Soviet planes lost for a mere 157 Axis ones, the figures themselves indicate an Axis air victory this turn. I do not look at it this way however, as most of my losses were either easily replaced aircraft or level bombers of little worth. The Axis planes lost have been largely German fighters.
The final result of those bombings were the loss of 15 Bf 109F-2’s, 81 Bf 109 F-4’s and 15 other German fighter aircraft for 51 SB-2’s, 81 IL-2’s, 119 Pe-2’s, 98 DB-3B’s and 92 IL-4’s.



Optimism is always encouraged although in this case probably misplaced. Those DB-3s and SB-2s may be replaceable from reserve stocks, but their pools will eventually run dry. Your Pe-2 weekly production at best is only half of what you lost, your IL-4s losses, six times what you can best case produce in a week. So at this rate of loss, the burden would eventually fall largely on the IL-2s, even allowing for some US lend lease aircraft down the road. Since you want those IL-2s for battlefield use, you may want to re-think your airbase bombing strategy. Gaining outright Soviet air superiority in 1942 is something of a fool’s errand for a variety of reasons that deserve its own thread.


< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 1/7/2017 4:24:36 PM >

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 123
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/7/2017 8:18:48 PM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Optimism is always encouraged although in this case probably misplaced. Those DB-3s and SB-2s may be replaceable from reserve stocks, but their pools will eventually run dry. Your Pe-2 weekly production at best is only half of what you lost, your IL-4s losses, six times what you can best case produce in a week. So at this rate of loss, the burden would eventually fall largely on the IL-2s, even allowing for some US lend lease aircraft down the road. Since you want those IL-2s for battlefield use, you may want to re-think your airbase bombing strategy. Gaining outright Soviet air superiority in 1942 is something of a fool’s errand for a variety of reasons that deserve its own thread.


I "categorized" my losses into two groups on this occassion.

The easily replaced aircraft are my IL-2's. While it is true I lost 81, I also produced around 150 this turn, and the production number is steadily climbing.

The Level Bombers of little worth are SB-2's, Pe-2's, DB-3B's and IL-4's. This classification rests largely on the fact that I have found no really good use for them since the last patch. They can fly Ground bombing missions, but those 100KG GP Bombs dropped from level bombers are just so inferior to those dropped by U-2VS. They can also fly airbase attacks at night, but since the last patch that does little damage (if the Germans do not fly interception against the raid). If I keep the bombers alive, I think I will slowly get to where the Germans start fielding night fighters in larger numbers, and then I will loose even more trying those night time attacks.

I have also noticed that a very large part of my own aircraft losses are due to German fighters. If I can keep their numbers down, I'm generally in good shape. By turn 50, I deem the Germans have air superiority north of Moscow, I have virtual air supremacy between Moscow and Kharkov and I have air superiority south of Kharkov.

I consider it a victory in the air, if I can limit the Luftwaffe to being able to operate along a narrow front, leaving me to roam free everywhere else. I believe this is not wholly unachievable - especially as I think Pelton is somewhat "relaxed" in the way he uses his airforces.

I fully accept that this argument is not really unrefutable. If you can point to some really good uses of early war Soviet level Bombers, I will gladly admit that I was wrong and try to make amends in the future.



< Message edited by Dinglir -- 1/7/2017 8:20:59 PM >

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Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 124
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/9/2017 3:37:34 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
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Status: offline 		Turn fiftyone.

_____________________________

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To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 125
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/9/2017 3:38:18 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftyone plus file

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Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 126
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/10/2017 12:10:12 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Turn fiftyone plus file


Curious, What are you going to do when/if Pelton breaks one of the River lines in the south and surrounds those units up front? I see you have multiple layers here. Are the units on the other river lines going to stay put or ?.... Just trying to understand what you are doing.

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(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 127
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/10/2017 5:30:14 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Curious, What are you going to do when/if Pelton breaks one of the River lines in the south and surrounds those units up front? I see you have multiple layers here. Are the units on the other river lines going to stay put or ?.... Just trying to understand what you are doing.


Well HardLuck, you invited me to post a wall of text, and I will not fail

The "traditional" way of defending is to create a defensive line multiple hexes deep with as high a defensive CV in each hex as possible. What I have seen again and again however, is that Pelton attacks with a "Panzer ball" of some 15 Panzer divisions, 10 Motorized Divisions and plenty of infantry divisions to do the initial attacks. The effects of this is that the infantry beats the first line of defense and takes control of the hexrow. That means that the first few Panzers can move up to the second hexrow of the defensive line for a minimu of MP, attack and beat that line as well. The next group of Panzers can then move up to the third hexrow, make a series of hasty attacks, beating back the defenders on hex at a time. In the end, when all defenders are gone, the Motorized Divisions can charge through at a minimum of MP (due to Axis control of all the fromer defense hexes) and then create a deep penetration.

I actually suffered this in turn 51 at the German breakthrough in the north. Looking at the reports, the Germans fought for virtually all hexes in the first four hexrows they took, and none other. I had hoped that the terrain modifer would have prevented this from happening here, but it did not. Look at my lines and you will see that a number of Northwestern Front divisions are already hopelessly outmaneuvered and effecticley encircled. What would have happened here, if I had kept fewer of those divisions on the line and more in a strategic reserve?

In effect, I do not believe it is possible for the Soviets to prevent a German Panzer breakthrough in 1942. The mission for the Soviets must be to contain such a breakthrough, not to prevent it. Consequently, I have tried to design my defense with that task in mind.

In the prime Panzer country south of Moscow, I have tried to only place enough at the very front to ensure that the German infantry can not force a breakthrough on their own. If the Germans wish for a breakthrough, they will need to commit their Panzers.

This is where my strategic reserve comes in. As soon as the Panzer's attack (or I see them gathering), I will start relocating my strategic reserve to that location. They should hopefully be able to pick up the fight somewhere around my second river line (which is built up mainly by divisions attached to STAVKA Armies). This is also the reason why I try to have such a large reserve as I do - I need it to fight the German Panzers. At turn 51, I considered the entire Volkhov Front (four armies) and about five other armies as part of that reserve - to be rushed to wherever the German Panzers attack.

Of course, if I spot the German Panzers mustering for a coming attack, I might very well decide to simply evacuate the first line of defense, drawing my front divisions back to the second line at the same time as I move up my strategic reserve.

The third line is made up entirely by STAVKA units and thus haveneither leadership or support units available. If caught in a fight, they will suffer a 20% CV reduction for being assigned to STAVKA. In effect, they should be kept wl clear of all fighting as they are a liability in such an event. They serve simply as diggers.

One final thing that is (realtively) to my advantage with this line of thinking: I read somewhere that Pelton has now begun his 50th game as Germany. In other words, he has had plenty of experience in overcoming a "traditional" defense, while I have had none in conducting one. As a reader of "Achtung Panzer" you will know the value of obtaining and keeping "surprise".

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To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 128
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/10/2017 5:56:54 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I think now that there is no way to hold a well prepared german offensive this year. Only large river and swamp can save you. If there is none, flee as fast as possible. You really need to save your army. It is the most important thing. Preserve precious manpower.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 129
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/12/2017 1:01:10 PM   
GabrielBora

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 10/14/2016
Status: offline 		Carpet defense works if you are able to counteratack with strong tank armies from outside.
NO individual geman division can withstand a deliberate counteratack by 6 tank/cavalry corps .
He needs to stack 2 divisions in one hex to keep the outher encirclerment ring .

All of his mobile units are not enough to keep one single sov front inside .

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 130
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/12/2017 7:52:57 PM   
TheOne

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 10/26/2016
Status: offline 		I think he has seen it all.

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Post #: 131
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/14/2017 10:56:11 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne

I think he has seen it all.


That's cryptic.

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Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to TheOne)
Post #: 132
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/14/2017 2:09:31 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne

I think he has seen it all.


That's cryptic.


That is because the previous post "idolizing" Pelton and all of his glory was deleted by the moderators. Thus the 2nd Proxy is referencing air (nada). Hope this helps :)



_____________________________


(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 133
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/15/2017 2:56:11 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftytwo.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 134
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/16/2017 2:25:25 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		The mobile troops that you have at Rostov should really be moved out of the area. They aren't effective defenders and by saving them for meaningful counterattacks down the road is something that you will appreciate later.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 135
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:37:11 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Recent events has caused me to decide to end the current campaign vrs Pelton.

I have noticed that Pelton has not been returning the turn for some days while still playing on against Stelteck. Because of this, I have sent him an email politely enquiring if everything was ok. I received a less than cordial answer sent to me and half the programming staff of WitE, basically accusing me of exploiting the faulty WitE system (by using the air tactics that I do). Pelton then moved on to accuse me of being a pet to the WitE design team and everone receiving his email of being a bunch of retards (the word "retards" was in capital letters in his mail, by the way).

My interest in WitE lies in playing a very interesting game and having a lot of fun, not in getting involved in some emotional rage war centering around Peltons person. It seems now that the better I do in this game, the worse the reactions from Pelton will be. Because of this, I have decided to quit. I certainly do not feel beat, and against a different opponent, I would have been more than happy to continue the game.

As for the accusation of the air system being faulty, I actually do agree. The current system seems to favor the Soviets. However, Peltons complete neglect of the needs of the Luftwaffe has certainly also played into my hand, making my job that much easier. I look forward toplaying a German campaign, where I will try my best to turn the tables in that regard.

Moreover, I consider those air rules part of the game we have decided to play, much as the many factors favoring the Germans:

1) The mild blizzard rules (allowing German attacks in Feb 1942),
2) The "do not move HQ and optimize supplies" used by Pelton,
3) The Pelton strategy of placing Axis Minor airfields on the raillines rendering my partisans useless and
4) The low combat casualties, making it that much easier for the Germans in the early war.

So there it is: I will stop playing this game vrs Pelton and apply for a new opponent in the CG section. Further, I will also post the remaining five turns of AAR I have waiting for the next turns.

_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 136
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:38:51 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftythree.

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To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 137
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:39:37 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftyfour.

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To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 138
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:40:26 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftyfive.

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_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 139
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:41:33 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftysix.

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_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 140
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:42:14 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Turn fiftyseven.

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To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 141
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 4:42:33 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Game over!

_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 142
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/21/2017 8:00:30 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry for the outcome of the campaign and thanks for the AAR.

Personnally, i consider your air tactic to be perfectly legitimate. And it is not so different that a lot of advantage germany have in current system and home rules. It may also be not impossible to counter with luftwaffe maybe.

I'am not currently using your small raid tactics to its extend, but it is only because i'am lazy, and not because i do not want to do it . I admire your dedication to micromanage this game.

There are probably some gameplay and interface twist to do to help managing the soviet air force in an easier way, but it is not currently so bad.

By the way the hate mail are not acceptable in a wargaming community, and i wonder if i do not have to take some consequences in my own game.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 1/21/2017 10:04:20 AM >

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 143
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/22/2017 11:36:49 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Personally, I have little doubt that I would be more than likely to lose the campaign in case we continued this game. The loss of both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 is severe. For a player with my current skill set, it proved impossible to retake Moscow in the winter of 1941-42. In a "Bitter End" scenario that mean the Axis are very far ahead on points. It is more than unlikely that I would ever be able to catch up.

That is good news, as a player with 50 campaigns behind him should certainly be able to defeat a newcomer to the game 10 times out of 10. Skill does matter.

So it is quite right I am losing. However, as I stated above, that is not the reason I am quitting. I am quitting because of the tone put forward in Peltons mails, combined with the knowledge that my AAR has become the study of my opponent, even if we agreed Pelton would not read it before we started the game. I have received several PM's from othe rplayers warning me of this fact throughout the game, but have decided (up until now) to give Pelton the benefit of the doubt.

The screenshot in Hunter63's possession is incidentally from a turn given to me AFTER I published my decision to quit the game, so it could certainly not have influenced that decision. My resolve to quit is far from weakened by this blunt attempt at second guessing my intentions, trying to play me down as a sore loser.

If Pelton feels the need, he is more than welcome to count my quitting as another victory.


_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra
Post #: 144
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/22/2017 3:50:54 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		You did a great AAR that featured solid analysis and you learned a lot. Time to move on to another challenge.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 145
RE: Pelton vrs Dinglir, CG 41-45 Bitter End - 1/23/2017 7:54:29 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Thanks for the AAR!

Playing Pelton if you're not an very experienced player is a hard task

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 146
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