Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: mikmyk

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ORIGINAL: StellarRat

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ORIGINAL: apache85

Getting a bit OT but what kind of range would we expect a rail gun to engage at?

I've read up to 100 miles. They will have seeker rounds, but are such high velocity that no explosive is used. Additionally, supposedly, they can target incoming missiles and AC at shorter ranges.

We are looking at this soon.If you guys can find some stats somewhere we'll try and get them in there.

Mike

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
Well, I always felt that the Harpoon missile have been underrated since Harpoon the game (but that's ok since you get unlimited reloads for your carrier planes). If you look at the soviet ship built toward the end of the cold war era like the Kirov, Sovremenny, Udaloy and Slava and see how many CIWS and short range SAM they carry. You'll see that they consider the Harpoon a Huge threat. The thing is, there are sea skimmers and then there are seas skimmers. Anything that flys between 5-50 meter above sea level is considered a sea skimmer and but the lower they fly the harder it is to intercept and the harpoon is probably the lowest flying of all the sea skimmers. It doesn't help that none of the Soviet heavy SAM can even engage that low (SA-N-6 have a hard low ceiling of 10 meters) SA-N-7 can probably engage but at a highly degraded hit probability. Which leave them with basically Gun or light missile based CIWS like the AK-630 and SA-N-4/9. Basically, you get under 2 minutes of reaction time from when the missile pop over the radar horizon (depending on sea state). I have a friend that used to fly B-52Gs out of Loring at the time and their estimate is that a flight of 4 Gs with 12 Harpoons each or 6 Gs with 8 each (depending on range) will achieve a mission kill on any soviet SAG including one with a Kirov with or without HARM support.

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
Well, I always felt that the Harpoon missile have been underrated since Harpoon the game (but that's ok since you get unlimited reloads for your carrier planes). If you look at the soviet ship built toward the end of the cold war era like the Kirov, Sovremenny, Udaloy and Slava and see how many CIWS and short range SAM they carry. You'll see that they consider the Harpoon a Huge threat. The thing is, there are sea skimmers and then there are seas skimmers. Anything that flys between 5-50 meter above sea level is considered a sea skimmer and but the lower they fly the harder it is to intercept and the harpoon is probably the lowest flying of all the sea skimmers. It doesn't help that none of the Soviet heavy SAM can even engage that low (SA-N-6 have a hard low ceiling of 10 meters) SA-N-7 can probably engage but at a highly degraded hit probability. Which leave them with basically Gun or light missile based CIWS like the AK-630 and SA-N-4/9. Basically, you get under 2 minutes of reaction time from when the missile pop over the radar horizon (depending on sea state). I have a friend that used to fly B-52Gs out of Loring at the time and their estimate is that a flight of 4 Gs with 12 Harpoons each or 6 Gs with 8 each (depending on range) will achieve a mission kill on any soviet SAG including one with a Kirov with or without HARM support.

If you think we are modelling anything specific wrong, show us. Thanks.

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
One thing that have never been validated is that HARM can be intercepted by a SAM. The thing is the size of an AMRAAM although it flys are 1/2 the speed. but just try to imagine hitting an early AIM-7 with a missile. When I asked if a HARM can be intercepted. My friends in the Air Force just laugh in my face.

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
There are also quite a few things that wasn't taken into accounts in sims of that era. The main thing is the man in the loop time. Providing that the launch platform was not detected and the first sign of an attack is when the missiles pop over the radar horizon. How much time passes before the first radar contact to when the defensive fire begins. In most sims, it's almost instant but what happens in real life?

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
There are also quite a few things that wasn't taken into accounts in sims of that era. The main thing is the man in the loop time. Providing that the launch platform was not detected and the first sign of an attack is when the missiles pop over the radar horizon. How much time passes before the first radar contact to when the defensive fire begins. In most sims, it's almost instant but what happens in real life?

OODA values (per-contact response delay). We have them.

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S-300V

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.

You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
One thing that have never been validated is that HARM can be intercepted by a SAM. The thing is the size of an AMRAAM although it flys are 1/2 the speed. but just try to imagine hitting an early AIM-7 with a missile. When I asked if a HARM can be intercepted. My friends in the Air Force just laugh in my face.

I can't speak about HARM specifically, but one of the explicit design goals of the S-300V was to intercept the SRAM missile at long range, a weapon with IIRC comparable/smaller signature than the HARM and even faster. From SA-10/11/12/15 onwards everything that the Russians (and now the Chinese too) churn out is explicitly designed to engage such targets. There is a reason everyone wants direct Prowler/Growler support on an op.

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.

You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.

While he did not name the scenario. he did say "I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s)." So I assume it's a Loring strike as the time period sounds right.

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33

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ORIGINAL: Sunburn

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ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.

You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.

While he did not name the scenario. he did say "I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s)." So I assume it's a Loring strike as the time period sounds right.

You missed my point. You are assuming he made a good attack (careful target selection, weapon allocation, TOTs etc.), as the B-52D/G crews were trained to do. It's very probable he did not.

In fact, without a concrete save file to explicitly state all the parameters of the engagement, this entire discussion is utterly pointless.

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ORIGINAL: Excroat3

Yeah, its my scenario (The Seventh Battle)

If I remember correctly, I think the SAG he is talking about is a SAG on steroids. The ships are the remnants of two carrier groups. These are the ships in the SAG:

Tallinn (Udaloy)
Chervona Ukrina (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Stoikiy (Sov)
Ustinov (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Otlichniy (Sov)
Kalinin (Kirov class battlecruiser)
Azov (Kara class missile cruiser)
1x Kresta
1x Slava

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ORIGINAL: Coiler12

Have the scen loaded now. All the SAG groups in it are:

Gorshkov:
Gorshkov/Kiev
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2
Kara

Kuznetsov:
Kuznetsov
Slava
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2

Moskva:
Moskva x2
Kara
Slava
Udaloy x2
Sovremenny x2

Ex-Varyag:
Kara
Kresta
Udaloy
Sovremenny x2
Kirov
Slava x3

However, even with the scen, the claim of "Harpoons not working" is useless without an exact save. It could be poor coordination, unlucky rolls[1], or both. It could easily have been a sloppy attack on the strongest group with a lot of dice rolls that favored the defender.

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Loring-grade

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ORIGINAL: Dysta

I kinda understand the doctrine of "Blind, Cripple and Maim": Jammer and HARM first to take out the detectability (blind), until it's completely ineffective to return fire (cripple), when the mission demands, or the target still can do harm to your units, ASM will ensure they won't do it (maim, possibly kill but wasting missiles for sinking a blind ship is unwise).

For the cheaper and non-asymmetrically prepared units, the only option is "Kill", by launching as many ASMs to saturate the fleet as possible to force them passively react for their defense, while the offset attacks (air units and submarines) are overwhelming them at the same time. But the modern vessels are very good at multi-tasking with general combat and engagement systems, this left the offensive two options by either drastically increasing more missiles to over-saturate their maximum defense (as LRASM for MK41, 200 of them to at least overwhelm 2 destroyer-protected fleet with lots of SAMs and CIWS), or, consider an asymmetrical countermeasure.