How long to build a base? Part 2

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How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/5/2016 3:28:55 AM

Graymane

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Hi everyone! It has been awhile since I've played or been actively involved in witp ae, but I've recently found myself back playing again. I still think this is one the best games I've ever played and so I'm drifting back in again with the tide.

I love the logistics aspects of this game, so I tend to spend a lot of time worrying over things that I don't understand. One of those is base construction. A long time ago, I posted some of my research in this area. That research is incomplete since it didn't include supplies and also since I made some poor assumptions (i.e., AF and port build at the same rates all the time). I've also read Alfred's excellent article on supply.

Armed with my renewed interest, the manual and various posts to catch me up, I am reexamining base construction. This time it will include supplies and fort construction as well. Before I spend more time, however, I want to make sure someone else hasn't done this work because it is VERY time consuming. All in all, I can see why I keep coming back to this game as it is so rich in its detail.

What I have found and am following up on is the following so far:

1.

quote:

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

This basically summarizes what is in the manual. However, it doesn't seem to hold empirically. The actual formula would seem to be: Supplies used per turn in construction = 1/2 number of engineers + 2. Further, LCUs seem to consume a constant 1 supply per 30 devices (I haven't tested this thoroughly, only with the 3rd ID and some base units).
2. AF are 10x as expensive as ports for dot bases.
3. Combined SPS controls the number of engineers "allowed" to work on a construction project. 200 for combined 0 SPS, 300 for 1 SPS, 400 for 2 SPS, etc. There are also diminishing returns and "interference" effects at high levels of engineers as well (i.e., 600 engineers doing less work that 500 engineers).
4. Ports and AF have a supply construction cost that grows at a fairly linear pace although I'm still researching the costs and verifying results.
5. My tests are with a modified scenario 1 with various allied units from different countries, no japs yet. Testing bases are in the Samoa islands for now. Leaders of all units are the same and have skill 50 in all attributes. I use different unit experience levels in otherwise identical units to see if there are any differences. I change base ownership to test for differences.
6. Port damage slows down build times as engineers repair the damage.

[EDIT: I will be updating this post as I move forward]

< Message edited by Graymane -- 9/6/2016 1:34:42 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/5/2016 8:26:05 AM

Chris21wen

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How longs a piece of string?

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Post #: 2

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/5/2016 8:22:17 PM

geofflambert

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I regret that Chris H beat me to posting the first smart-alec remark. Thanks for posting Graymane. Don't have answers for you. Keep at it. I used to always build an airbase at French Frigate Shoals so I could fly fighters from Oahu to Midway and back. Took forever. Anyways, all this testing you're doing, do you grade on the curve?

Sorry, had to work something in there.

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Post #: 3

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/5/2016 9:33:48 PM

Korvar

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I'm glad that you've picked up the thread here, Graymane. I already had your part 1 archived along with a lot of Alfred posts, and I keep your chart in my game reference docs.

I haven't done extensive searches, but from what I've seen you've gone farther than anyone else when it comes to the base building inner workings. If anybody else that has this stuff figured out, they are keeping it close to the vest.

I'm not in front of my home computer at the moment, but I also built a (very) basic model for AF + port building times. I stopped before factoring fort construction into the calculations. Now that I've wrapped up a couple interface/art projects, I think I'm ready to circle back again.

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Post #: 4

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 8:54:14 AM

Chris21wen

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There are so many factors involve in building a base. These include standard potential size, current size, number of engineers, supply damage due to attack, luck and probably more.

I'll put some numbers up for Kirakira Is (SE of Lunga) already in Allied but with no troops. A/F size 0(3), Port 0(0), Fort 0(9)

I landed turn 235 and it was fully built to A/F size 6(3), Port 3(0), Fort 5(9) in 110 days. At no time did I build more than one thing at a time and it was never attacked and never short of supply.

Break down in days to go up one level

Level A P F
1 4 4 1
2 4 9 2
3 4 11 4
4 7 13
5 18 19
6 20

This is the order I built the levels
F 1
A 1
A 2
P 1
P 2
A 3
A 4
A 5
A 6
F 2
F 3
P 3
F 4
F 5

I cannot remember all the troops I had on the island but this is the core with engineers

B Det USN port Svc T236
23 CBs T236
102 Combat Eng Rgt T236
119 USAAF BF T236
1 x Marine Rgt T236

I landed two more CB units
36 CBs T244
41 CBs T245

All units remained until the level 5 fort was constructed.

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Post #: 5

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 2:23:10 PM

m10bob

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Glad someone is looking at the time to build bases.
You are correct, the subject has been bridged(pun intended) several times in past and the answer usually has to do with "ply balance".

Example...American engineer units had access to road graders and bulldozers as intrinsic equipment for their engineer units, and "triangular" Infantry Divisions even had their own engineers.
The Japanese might only have one piece of equipment to use as a 'dozer.

Then too, Americans developed "Marston Matting" which were sheets of metal which could interlock with each other to form runways.
I know of at least one fighter runway which was assembled and in use in TWO days.(Never happen in our game, LOL).

WITP-AE has improved HUNDREDS of aspects leaning toward history compared to the original WITP.
(Might be thousands if you consider units and equipment, actually).

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Post #: 6

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 3:07:12 PM

BBfanboy

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A couple more factors for you Chris H - the terrain type and the malaria effects.

Terrain type may say "Jungle" or "Jungle Rough" but behind that there may be another difficulty factor that applies to construction. I think this because building an airfield 1 at Dutch Harbour has been taking over six months with a good number of engineers (around fifty) with vehicles. At other SPS 0 Airfields the first level does not take long. Even if you allow for the Cold Zone effects it is just sooooo slowwww!

Malaria effects are also variable depending on the hex - some are really wicked and some are almost nil. Engineers down with malaria do not contribute to base building, but once you get past about level 5 in base development the effects begin to ease noticeably (mostly recovery time gets shorter).

So to pin down the exact timeframe to build a base at each level is going to have some variables that are somewhat random. I don't know if supply usage is affected by having a longer construction time on a base level. It should, if machines are guzzling more fuel (supply) and construction supplies are being used up. e.g. How long does a saw last in the jungle before getting rusted up?

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Post #: 7

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 3:09:35 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

A couple more factors for you Chris H - the terrain type and the malaria effects.

Terrain type may say "Jungle" or "Jungle Rough" but behind that there may be another difficulty factor that applies to construction. I think this because building an airfield 1 at Dutch Harbour has been taking over six months with a good number of engineers (around fifty) with vehicles. At other SPS 0 Airfields the first level does not take long. Even if you allow for the Cold Zone effects it is just sooooo slowwww!

Malaria effects are also variable depending on the hex - some are really wicked and some are almost nil. Engineers down with malaria do not contribute to base building, but once you get past about level 5 in base development the effects begin to ease noticeably (mostly recovery time gets shorter).

So to pin down the exact timeframe to build a base at each level is going to have some variables that are somewhat random. I don't know if supply usage is affected by having a longer construction time on a base level. It should, if machines are guzzling more fuel (supply) and construction supplies are being used up. e.g. How long does a saw last in the jungle before getting rusted up?

+1...Malaria may be obviated with a HQ unit nearby IIRC...

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Post #: 8

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 3:25:10 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

A couple more factors for you Chris H - the terrain type and the malaria effects.

Terrain type may say "Jungle" or "Jungle Rough" but behind that there may be another difficulty factor that applies to construction. I think this because building an airfield 1 at Dutch Harbour has been taking over six months with a good number of engineers (around fifty) with vehicles. At other SPS 0 Airfields the first level does not take long. Even if you allow for the Cold Zone effects it is just sooooo slowwww!

Malaria effects are also variable depending on the hex - some are really wicked and some are almost nil. Engineers down with malaria do not contribute to base building, but once you get past about level 5 in base development the effects begin to ease noticeably (mostly recovery time gets shorter).

So to pin down the exact timeframe to build a base at each level is going to have some variables that are somewhat random. I don't know if supply usage is affected by having a longer construction time on a base level. It should, if machines are guzzling more fuel (supply) and construction supplies are being used up. e.g. How long does a saw last in the jungle before getting rusted up?

+1...Malaria may be obviated with a HQ unit nearby IIRC...

I haven't heard of HQs "obviating" malaria completely, but they provide support to units and like base or unit "support squads" those help with malaria recovery, if not resistance to malaria disablement.

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Post #: 9

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/6/2016 9:48:34 PM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I haven't heard of HQs "obviating" malaria completely, but they provide support to units and like base or unit "support squads" those help with malaria recovery, if not resistance to malaria disablement.

Probably all those red cross nurses at the HQ.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 10

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 6:21:58 AM

bradfordkay

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Isn't malaria eliminated if the total base size hits or exceeds 10? So a malarial base with port size 4 and airfield size 6 would no longer suffer the effects of malaria...

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 11

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 7:03:51 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Isn't malaria eliminated if the total base size hits or exceeds 10? So a malarial base with port size 4 and airfield size 6 would no longer suffer the effects of malaria...

I've always believed this to be true.

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Post #: 12

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 7:25:34 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Isn't malaria eliminated if the total base size hits or exceeds 10? So a malarial base with port size 4 and airfield size 6 would no longer suffer the effects of malaria...

It's total size 9 for AF + Pt. Forts don't count. But as m10Bob indicated support squads in a reasonably developed base can pretty much keep the mosquitoes at bay (or force the GIs to take their quinine tablets).

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 12:23:30 PM

Graymane

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I will be testing different terrain types as well as temp zones as well. The manual already says that cold weather zones increase supply consumption. I will test fatigue and other troop effects as well. I am still thinking about a reasonable strategy. The issue is that I use large numbers of engineers when possible to zero in on the ballpark numbers, then fine tune. However, large numbers of engineers have effects not seen in most games unless you are using 300+ in a hex. That is when you see a lot of diminishing effects.

There is clearly a well-thought out pattern to base construction. It is modeled very well I think. It takes a lot of factors into consideration. Larger bases need more supplies to construct, too many engineers get in each other's way, AF are more difficult to build 0(0) than ports. Only half the engineers work on a base allowing things like disablement to have less impact. The combined SPS of a base is a measure of the size and complexity of the area limiting how many total engineers can work.

It really isn't random at all. At least I haven't found a single random factor yet. I run some constructions dozens of times and always get the same result within 1 or 2 supply usually due to disablements and the like.

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 7:03:53 PM

BBfanboy

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Not sure where you get the idea that AFs are more difficult than ports (although that may be the case in certain terrains). When I was playing the Japanese side I set the engineers at Maizuru to construct both AF and Port at the same time. They had the same SPS and were both starting at the same level. Through the next three levels of construction they remained tied for progress. I have also seen that for an Allied base but I forget which one. I was not tracking supply usage if that is what you meant by more difficult.

During your testing take account of the forts situation during construction. When a facility like, for example, a level 3 airfield is expanded and there are forts in place at the base, the forts must be extended to cover the larger airfield - i.e. the fort level does not change but to maintain fort level, engineer points and supply are used up.

So when testing you need the same SPS, same terrain type, same start levels, same fort levels, same malaria/cold zone factors, same engineer unit devices, same experience and leadership, no interruptions from the enemy, and enough supply that it does not hinder anything. Easy, right?

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 7:11:11 PM

geofflambert

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A long time ago someone (not on this forum) insisted to me that the Japanese had no bulldozers and were astonished when they saw them completing the construction of "Henderson Field". That just isn't so and they had many models and were quite familiar with such. Just throwin' that in.

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 7:50:30 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

A long time ago someone (not on this forum) insisted to me that the Japanese had no bulldozers and were astonished when they saw them completing the construction of "Henderson Field". That just isn't so and they had many models and were quite familiar with such. Just throwin' that in.

It's been a long time since I read the account of Guadalcanal, but I seem to remember the GIs found only ONE really small grader to work the airstrip. Not sure if there was also a bulldozer, but the fact that the Marines were not impressed stands out!

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 8:15:08 PM

geofflambert

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My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 9/7/2016 8:16:23 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 8:15:45 PM

Skyros

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Like this?

Illustration 15a
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Guadalcanal/

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Skyros -- 9/7/2016 8:17:14 PM >

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 8:16:56 PM

Graymane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Not sure where you get the idea that AFs are more difficult than ports (although that may be the case in certain terrains). When I was playing the Japanese side ....

I am only testing Allies at the moment. On the Samoan islands I'm testing on with 4 different units, the amount of supplies required to build a 0(0) to 1(0) is 10x more for an AF than a port. For anything with an SPS of 1 or great on the AF, it is the same cost as a port so far in my testing.

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Post #: 20

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/7/2016 8:16:58 PM

geofflambert

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I swear, you can get die-cast kits of various J dozers and graders from that time.

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 6:31:06 AM

bradfordkay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

I recall reading that the average Japanese soldier had very little mechanical experience compared to his American counterpart. Billy Bob from the farm had been working with tractors and trucks for years whereas the average Japanese recruit had never seen the inside of an engine. IIRC, it was mentioned in Fire In The Sky.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 22

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 6:15:46 PM

reg113

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

I recall reading that the average Japanese soldier had very little mechanical experience compared to his American counterpart. Billy Bob from the farm had been working with tractors and trucks for years whereas the average Japanese recruit had never seen the inside of an engine. IIRC, it was mentioned in Fire In The Sky.

Also, mentioned in "Shattered Sword".

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RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 8:36:42 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Not sure where you get the idea that AFs are more difficult than ports (although that may be the case in certain terrains). When I was playing the Japanese side ....

I am only testing Allies at the moment. On the Samoan islands I'm testing on with 4 different units, the amount of supplies required to build a 0(0) to 1(0) is 10x more for an AF than a port. For anything with an SPS of 1 or great on the AF, it is the same cost as a port so far in my testing.

It's been my experience (as a mostly IJN player) that what really matters to speeding up the construction of AFs and Ports are:

1. Having 1 or more real engineer units present. IE a 'Constuction Engineer' battalion. Base forces do not build nearly as fast as a dedicated engineer unit (due to not having as many engineer squads).
2. Keeping the base well supplied. If you can keep 20k or more supply, it seems to move much quicker.
3. Not going over the bases troop stack limit.
4. Having air control so that your base isn't taking damage that has to be repaired before any expansion can go forward.
5. Initial build size potential. A base with a that is 0/6 build size will get the first 2-3 levels far faster than a base of 0/3 size or smaller.

Number 5 seems to be a big influence, in a recent game a base with a 0/1 port and 0/0 AF potential had its port build up twice as fast as the AF, where a base with opposite build potentials had is AF build twice as fast as the port.

Now is any of this set in stone? I have no idea, these are just my very unscientific observations. Results may vary.

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Post #: 24

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 11:34:08 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

I recall reading that the average Japanese soldier had very little mechanical experience compared to his American counterpart. Billy Bob from the farm had been working with tractors and trucks for years whereas the average Japanese recruit had never seen the inside of an engine. IIRC, it was mentioned in Fire In The Sky.

Yeah, but they made up for that with their knowledge of Ken-do!

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Post #: 25

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 11:41:53 PM

Korvar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: reg113

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

I recall reading that the average Japanese soldier had very little mechanical experience compared to his American counterpart. Billy Bob from the farm had been working with tractors and trucks for years whereas the average Japanese recruit had never seen the inside of an engine. IIRC, it was mentioned in Fire In The Sky.

Also, mentioned in "Shattered Sword".

From Shattered Sword:

There were more than sixteen hundred mechanics on board Nagumo's four carriers. These men, like the pilots of Kidō Butai, were among the very best practitioners of their craft in the world. They had worked together for years and were intimately familiar with their charges. Unlike America, where almost every young man had at least a passing acquaintance with internal combustion engines, Japan was far less industrially developed. In 1940 Japan manufactured only one-eightieth the number of automobiles that were produced in the United States. Agriculture was still largely performed by hand. As a result, Japanese mechanics did not grow on trees. These men, whether they had been plucked from the inaka ("the sticks") or had grown up in the teeming coastal cities, had been trained from the ground up over the course of years.

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Post #: 26

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/8/2016 11:47:40 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My point was that the rank and file J was in no way unaware of such machines, they were just always short of them.

I recall reading that the average Japanese soldier had very little mechanical experience compared to his American counterpart. Billy Bob from the farm had been working with tractors and trucks for years whereas the average Japanese recruit had never seen the inside of an engine. IIRC, it was mentioned in Fire In The Sky.

Reminds me of things said in WWI about the marksmanship of US troops vs. German troops with the US being much more experienced.

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Post #: 27

RE: How long to build a base? Part 2 - 9/9/2016 6:40:20 AM

bradfordkay

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This was mentioned in a book written in the last twenty years as opposed to something being said about the enemy during the war.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 28