Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

I have played 1 PBEM where my opponent opted to use Kaga, or maybe it was Akagi...a big gal anyway.... in support of 1st turn theatrics in PI. The lack of 1 CV at Pearl was hardly noticeable but the 1 extra CV in Philippines caused a lot of trouble. Many subs were damaged badly although surprisingly few sunk. Air supremacy was much enhanced. All the refugee vessels fleeing the area took much worse casualties. The temptation for me to dick around interdicting any invasions in area was gone....it was just run like hell. As I recall he dispatched Houston and Boise which is always a drag.

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ORIGINAL: HansBolter

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Must...not...reply.

Opinions shouldn't be solicited if one isn't prepared to hear and accept them.

I do have to admire your restraint LST.

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Mr. Vice President, Mr. Speaker, members of the Senate and the House of Representatives:

Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its Emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese Ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And, while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese Government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.
Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.
Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island.
And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense, that always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. So help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt - December 8, 1941

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

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ORIGINAL: szmike

Imho Japanese players just explore possibilities. In the end of the day surprise doesn't make much of a difference for Allies, but it helps Japanese to keep those pilots a day longer at the least.

Yes, in the end, no real or perceived advantage given to the JFBs in a "historic" scenario (not talking what-if mods here) will alter the ultimate outcome of the US industrial might steamrollering Japan.
But it appears that some AFBs are unwilling to accept even the smallest additional challenge (OTOH they have no problem accepting the unhistorical advantages given to the Allied players). Let's face it, it is a game, it has necessarily some limitations and both sides get their share of "unhistorical" advantages and disadvantages.

The war might as well have started with a surprise carrier raid against Manila instead of PH - enough empty ocean to the East and not enough US patrol planes to cover it to allow for a sudden appearance of KB.
However, a surprise strike against Singers would be less likely, much smaller water surface with too much civilian traffic to gibe KB much chance to remain unnoticed.
So while not entirely impossible, the details and limits of an unhistorical first turn with surprise should be discussed between opponents. Those who play the AI do not need to bother, obviously.

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well, a Manila strike instead of Pearl Harbor could be explained by Yamamoto not being successful in forcing his PH idea and - being a good solider - following orders from IJN HQ to hit the PI.

I agree with others here that the best opening remains a PH strike, trying to kill some BBs, with Akagi split off and sent to beef-up the Mini-KB in the DEI. The Manila subs are toothless tigers up into 1943 and in range of LBA (if HRs allow more than one port strike on day 1). Singers only makes sense with a Mersing gambit.

I myself actually prefer the "afternoon of Dec 7" with no surprise start - a Dec 8 scenario set to start on Dec 7. The historical damage is done but the Japanese player can make changes, for example to the destination of invasion forces. This requires the HR that KB and the Japanese LBA remain grounded for the first day.

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ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
Kaga, she is the slowest.

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'd say you'd have to scratch an early Phillipines invasion and/or call off the Malaya invasion. Oahu is too far away from support bases of any significance. I wouldn't advise it.

Sorry about that, I was responding to this earlier post:

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ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'd say you'd have to scratch an early Phillipines invasion and/or call off the Malaya invasion. Oahu is too far away from support bases of any significance. I wouldn't advise it.

Sorry about that, I was responding to this earlier post:

90% of my reading and studying of WW2 has been on the ETO. WitPAE has whetted my appetite for the PTO.

True, changes would have to made elsewhere - PI left to be dealt with later, etc., in order to take Midway and the Hawaiian Islands.

However, was this not the ultimate goal, set in motion by the Midway attack?

The biggest benefit to Japan in taking HI would have been in the political and military hurt it would have caused America. It may have resulted in what the Japanese were trying to achieve in the Pearl strike.

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The original strike on PH was just to keep the Pacific Fleet from interfering with Japan's conquest of the Southern Resource Area (DEI) and Burma. At the time most of the IJN was battleship-centric (just as most Western Naval officers were) so knocking out the battleships at PH was seen as essential. They also hoped to catch the two CVs there but didn't.

The Midway operation was not in the original expansion plans but "Victory Disease" from the early conquests and the Doolittle raid on Japan led the Japanese government to believe that they could capture Midway easily and that they needed it to close a gap in their air search (that let the Doolittle raid approach the home islands).

I have not seen anything to suggest the Japanese planned to take the Hawaiian Islands at any time, IRL.

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ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

The original strike on PH was just to keep the Pacific Fleet from interfering with Japan's conquest of the Southern Resource Area (DEI) and Burma. At the time most of the IJN was battleship-centric (just as most Western Naval officers were) so knocking out the battleships at PH was seen as essential. They also hoped to catch the two CVs there but didn't.

The Midway operation was not in the original expansion plans but "Victory Disease" from the early conquests and the Doolittle raid on Japan led the Japanese government to believe that they could capture Midway easily and that they needed it to close a gap in their air search (that let the Doolittle raid approach the home islands).

I have not seen anything to suggest the Japanese planned to take the Hawaiian Islands at any time, IRL.

I'am reading "Titans of the Seas" (Belote).

In January '42 Yamamoto asked his staff to propose what to do next.

His chief of staff, Rear Admiral Ugaki favored an invasion of Hawaii. Having carrier superiority and an overwhelming advantage in battleships would make an occupation feasible. He proposed seizing Midway, Johnston,and Palmyra islands in June, followed by a invasion of the Hawaiian islands.

This was determined by the Japanese "Think Tanks" to be too ambitious. Surprise was gone, it would be difficult to dominate the skys over Hawaii having to deal with both US land and carrier aircraft.

Next he proposed seizing Ceylon and invading India. The Japanese Army No-Go that.

Admiral Nagano's Naval General Staff pushed for a invasion of Australia - again No-Go from the Japanese Army

Yamamoto recognized that the Doolittle raid was a stunt, but it reminded him forcefully of America's enormous potential.


Ugaki then devised a less ambitious plan of his original Hawaiian plan. He proposed a near simultaneous capture of the outer Aleutian Islands and Midway Island. This would enable them to keep American sorties from Pearl surveilled and blunted. Then Johnston,and Palmyra islands would be taken.

To Admiral Yamamoto this plan had a supreme advantage: It should force the inferior American carrier fleet into decisive battle. If the American carrier force was destroyed, then invading Hawaii might be practicable.



Game wise, in a opening move of trying to take Pearl, the battle itself may prove more beneficial to the Japanese than actually taking the land.

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So basically, the Japanese "High Command" were not particularly good "JFB Players," is what I'm reading

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ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

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So basically, the Japanese "High Command" were not particularly good "JFB Players," is what I'm reading

Well... Yamamoto was a Harvard man.

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ORIGINAL: Anachro

Yamamoto also got a D on his class paper and almost failed the courses he took there. I know; I saw the paper while doing research in the Harvard archives.

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ORIGINAL: Anachro

Yamamoto also got a D on his class paper and almost failed the courses he took there. I know; I saw the paper while doing research in the Harvard archives.

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But it appears that some AFBs are unwilling to accept even the smallest additional challenge (OTOH they have no problem accepting the unhistorical advantages given to the Allied players). Let's face it, it is a game, it has necessarily some limitations and both sides get their share of "unhistorical" advantages and disadvantages.

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

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ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'd say you'd have to scratch an early Phillipines invasion and/or call off the Malaya invasion. Oahu is too far away from support bases of any significance. I wouldn't advise it.

Sorry about that, I was responding to this earlier post:

90% of my reading and studying of WW2 has been on the ETO. WitPAE has whetted my appetite for the PTO.

True, changes would have to made elsewhere - PI left to be dealt with later, etc., in order to take Midway and the Hawaiian Islands.

However, was this not the ultimate goal, set in motion by the Midway attack?

The biggest benefit to Japan in taking HI would have been in the political and military hurt it would have caused America. It may have resulted in what the Japanese were trying to achieve in the Pearl strike.

The original strike on PH was just to keep the Pacific Fleet from interfering with Japan's conquest of the Southern Resource Area (DEI) and Burma. At the time most of the IJN was battleship-centric (just as most Western Naval officers were) so knocking out the battleships at PH was seen as essential. They also hoped to catch the two CVs there but didn't.

The Midway operation was not in the original expansion plans but "Victory Disease" from the early conquests and the Doolittle raid on Japan led the Japanese government to believe that they could capture Midway easily and that they needed it to close a gap in their air search (that let the Doolittle raid approach the home islands).

I have not seen anything to suggest the Japanese planned to take the Hawaiian Islands at any time, IRL.