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- 5/17/2003 7:59:44 AM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		[B]Irinami[/B]

Off course they have sights on them ;) how else would you AIM.. The point I was trying to make was that recoil would seriously mess up aim in the course of a firefight, as your shoulders and arms battle the tremors from the barrel. I mean, a Thompson's barrel shoots up fast when you fire it, it's really recoil a go-go. So your first few shots would be fairly accurate (we are talking a 11 3/4 lbs weapon here, big hump of wood and metal!), but after that you'd have to be pretty dang hardcore to get any good shots off.

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Post #: 31
- 5/17/2003 8:04:58 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Cool, I didn't know it was such a prissy weapon. :D

Unfortunately, there's no way to dynamically reduce accuracy in this way during battles without seriously manhandling the code... and probably turning it into Steel Panthers: Supply Clerks At War!

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Post #: 32
- 5/17/2003 8:19:44 AM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		LOL Good one! Perhaps a nice new project for you guys at Matrix Games hahaha :D

A recode sounds unneccesary to me.. since things as 'spraying' also come into play at larger distances. You can still hit something at larger distance without aiming by firing enough bullits in it's general direction (providing you can handle the weapon that long of course), but it does become a lucky shot if you hit something. Then again, that is what we have sniper riffles for. And hey, firing a Thompson at full auto is intimidating if you know what one of those bullits can do to you (as stated earlier in this thread), so for suppressing fire it is a fine weapon, especially against experienced troops. Edit: assuming that anyone in their rightfull mind would take cover of course.

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Post #: 33
- 5/24/2003 4:40:55 AM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raskolnikov
[B
1. BR SMGs suck. Sten guns are awful. BR Paras are suicide squads.

Rask. [/B][/QUOTE]

As an old soldier who was trained in the use of stens, I hafta agree with you on that.

The only reasonable use I could see for stens was in house-to-house clearing.

What we were told to do was to:

Step 1] Remove the safety (frequently this was a big nail stuck through a hole in the breech block - an honest to God nail like you'd use on a 2x4).

Step 2] Break window in house if not already broken.

Step 3] Make sure sten is cocked.

Step 4] Toss entire weapon through window into room you want cleared, almost like it was a grenade.

Step 5] Duck. As soon as the sten hits the floor, it starts to fire and just sort of rattles around firing randomly in every direction until it runs out of ammo.

Step 6] Jump in after the gun stops and finish off anything that it missed hiding behind the desk.

Stens were awful guns that couldn't hit anything more than perhaps 15 metres away. I think the thought was for offiers to carry stens and make them so bad that the officers would spent their time planning and giving orders instead of being tempted to actually shoot at the enemy.

That being said, in real life, I found the bren gun quite a good weapon to use. It was VERY accurate for an MG and could actually hit what you aimed at at 200 metres. It had a good rate of fire and unlike many other MGs, if it overheated, you could snap on a cool barrel in just a few seconds.

The other nice thing about the bren, as opposed to the M16 for instance, was that it had a large calibre round that could penetrate even lightly armoured vehicles.

In SPWAW, the MG-42 seems to be a weapon with good range, accuracy and ROF.

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Post #: 34
LOL - 5/24/2003 4:51:51 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by arethusa
[B]As an old soldier who was trained in the use of stens, I hafta agree with you on that.

The only reasonable use I could see for stens was in house-to-house clearing.

What we were told to do was to:

Step 1] Remove the safety (frequently this was a big nail stuck through a hole in the breech block - an honest to God nail like you'd use on a 2x4).

Step 2] Break window in house if not already broken.

Step 3] Make sure sten is cocked.

Step 4] Toss entire weapon through window into room you want cleared, almost like it was a grenade.

Step 5] Duck. As soon as the sten hits the floor, it starts to fire and just sort of rattles around firing randomly in every direction until it runs out of ammo.

Step 6] Jump in after the gun stops and finish off anything that it missed hiding behind the desk.

Stens were awful guns that couldn't hit anything more than perhaps 15 metres away. I think the thought was for offiers to carry stens and make them so bad that the officers would spent their time planning and giving orders instead of being tempted to actually shoot at the enemy.

That being said, in real life, I found the bren gun quite a good weapon to use. It was VERY accurate for an MG and could actually hit what you aimed at at 200 metres. It had a good rate of fire and unlike many other MGs, if it overheated, you could snap on a cool barrel in just a few seconds.

The other nice thing about the bren, as opposed to the M16 for instance, was that it had a large calibre round that could penetrate even lightly armoured vehicles.

In SPWAW, the MG-42 seems to be a weapon with good range, accuracy and ROF. [/B][/QUOTE]

[B]STOP STOP[/B] :D :D :D :D :D :D . I'm going to wet ny jeans.

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Post #: 35
Re: Interchangable ammo - 5/24/2003 5:16:19 AM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
[B]While it is true that the Bren could fire German 9mm Parabellum it would have been unwise to shoot British 9mm ammo out of anything other than another SMG or the Sten itself. British 9mm SMG ammo had a heavier powder charge and thus more velosity than standard 9mm pistol ammo. I found this out in a warnning published by the NRA and other shooting mags. The warnning stated that firing these rounds through any 9mm pistol would result in a damaged firearm and possibly cause personal injury. So while the ammo of both the Bren and 9mm Parabellum/MP40 may have looked the same they were very different animals inside. Another factor is barrel length. Most SMG's firing pistol ammo have much longer barrels than the pistol that the round was ment to be shot from. Longer barrel to a point will produce a higher muzzel velosity. This appears not to be so with the Bren. It retains a high muzzel velosity despite having a relatively short barrel. This is because of the higher powered ammo.

The End :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I think you're getting the bren and the sten mixed up. The bren does have a long barrel and was quite accurate. The sten has a little stubby barrel and can't hit the broad side of a barn at anything much farther away than you can hear the guy breathing.

As far as the guys talking about sights go, when firing an smg in a combat situation, you don't bother to aim. The accuracy range isn't good enough and with a sten at least, there's no point to it. When you fire a sten, the recoil drags your aim up and to the right. So the idea is to start by shooting at the right hip of your target and it will stitch up across his chest to his left shoulder.

The weapon chatters so much in your grasp that the only bullet that you could possibly aim is the very first one and only the first one, and if you're only firing single shots, it defeats the whole concept of a machine gun, doesn't it?

The bren on the other hand, tends to have a recoil that pulls you forward slightly. That makes it much steadier to hold and this is a factor in increasing your accuracy as much as many of the other things that have been discussed here. When firing a bren prone on a polished concrete parade ground, it actually dragged the gunner forward about 6 inches or more during the course of emptying a magazine.

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Post #: 36
- 5/24/2003 6:04:22 AM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyricist
[B]
.. since things as 'spraying' also come into play at larger distances. You can still hit something at larger distance without aiming by firing enough bullits in it's general direction (providing you can handle the weapon that long of course), but it does become a lucky shot if you hit something. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly the idea for an SMG! Just make the enemy keep their heads down so your teammates can do what they need to do.

This brings to mind the old way of fighting before rifled barrels and breech-loading came into general use. Remember the long lines of redcoats and Imperial Guards facing up to each other across the field at Waterloo?

The old muzzle loaders of that day could kill at 200 yards but the saying was that you were exceedingly unlucky to be hit if anybody aimed at you from 100 yards and at 200 yards you were never hit by the person who aimed at you. But the long lines were really an 18th century way of creating an smg.

If there were enough guns pointing in the general direction of the enemy and all firing at once, somebody is going to hit something with all that lead in the air.

The same is true of these SMGs. If you put enough bullets in the general direction, you might even hit them but don't kid yourself about trying to aim.

When the bad guy is shooting back at you with a far more accurate Mauser, Garand, Lee-Enfield or whatever the case may be, you're not going to aim. You're going to squeeze off a short burst in his direction and dive for cover again. Let the bigger more accurate guns behind you do the aiming while you keep the guy occupied with your bullets hitting all around him and dropping twigs down on his sights.

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Post #: 37
Re: Re: Interchangable ammo - 5/24/2003 7:06:04 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by arethusa
[B]
As far as the guys talking about sights go, when firing an smg in a combat situation, you don't bother to aim. The accuracy range isn't good enough and with a sten at least, there's no point to it. When you fire a sten, the recoil drags your aim up and to the right. So the idea is to start by shooting at the right hip of your target and it will stitch up across his chest to his left shoulder.

The weapon chatters so much in your grasp that the only bullet that you could possibly aim is the very first one and only the first one, and if you're only firing single shots, it defeats the whole concept of a machine gun, doesn't it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sticking to my guns here. Every professional soldier I've ever spoken to on the topic insists you aim every single weapon, all the time. (Sure, there are times you can't, like spraying around a corner... but then, that's highly discouraged.) SMG's specifically included. I think we're just gonna' have to differ here.

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Post #: 38
- 5/24/2003 7:35:43 PM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		I think the difference is which ERA you're talking. And what type of weapon too.

Nowadays MOST SMGs are weapons you can aim with (the MP5 for instance is a very accurate SMG) . However, there are still exceptions to this rule, like the Ingram SMG, which is just a box with a barrel, a trigger, a handhold and a clip of ammo AND NO SIGHTS. Typically, the Ingram is NOT a soldier's weapon.

Taking it back to the 40s get's you very different types of SMGs as well.. The stengun is, as pointed out, very hard to aim, as is the Thompson, both for very different reasons. As I said before, the Tommy is 11.4 lbs to carry around. Imagine this weight while trying to aim. Then consider the rate of fire. It's possible, but only for a short while! We are forgetting that SMGs were still very much in developement and the common riffle was still predominant on the battlefield (with the exception of Germany, who produced MP40s like procreating mice). The stengun was one of the first attempts, so to speak, and thus a tad impractical at times.

My 2 cents... :cool:

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Post #: 39
- 5/24/2003 9:52:19 PM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyricist
[B]I think the difference is which ERA you're talking. And what type of weapon too. .....The stengun was one of the first attempts, so to speak, and thus a tad impractical at times.

My 2 cents... :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct Cyricist.

The sten had a very short barrel and I never saw two of them that looked the same. Some of them had 'wire butts', some of them were wood, some hollowed-out steel. Some were blackened or gunmetal colour but most looked like plain steel. Some really did have nails for safeties as I said earlier (they were attached by a wire so you didn't lose them) others had special made pins that fitted in and still others had a lever more like modern guns. We called them 'plumber's guns' because they looked like a few bit of steel pipe threaded onto each other.

The one consistent thing was that they couldn't really be aimed because they vibrated so much and they had no accuracy to speak of anyway so why bother.

Yes, with a modern SMG you could aim. I also fired FNC-1s, the standard 7.62 NATO weapon at the time and scored 89 out of a possible 100 at 200 yards.

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Post #: 40
Re: Re: Re: Re: No SMGs for me - 5/26/2003 8:16:18 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buzzard45
[B]I found this on a website:
Hmmm? Same rounds as an MP40. According to the OOBs The MP40 and Lanchester share the same Accuracy/Kill rating of 8/3. The MP28, M3 SMG and Sten share the rating of 4/3. Or half the accuracy. the Thompson? 8/4. Misc small arms 8/2. The encyclopedia changes these ratings somewhat, but that is based on the range at which it has an unadjusted (I could be corrected on this) hit chance of 50%. So still twice the effective ranges for similar weapons using interchangeable ammo.:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

If you have a problem with the difference in accuracy, consider the fact that the mp38/40 was a carefully machined work of art, while sten guns could be made out of muffler pipe. By the end of the war the UK was paying less than $5 for each sten gun, while the early war thompsons cost them more than $200 each. Even now you can buy kits of parts to make your own sten gun, they are the easiest of the smg class to make in a home shop.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 41
- 5/26/2003 3:55:32 PM   
Marek Tucan


Posts: 758
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Kladno, Czech Republic
Status: offline 		While you all are discussing mostly the STENs here, here is one example:

After the assassination of Reinhrd Heydrich, seven SOE operatives (four of them participated directly in the action against Heydrich) were sieged in a church in Prague. They were armed with STENs (actually the original intent of the assassination was to shoot Heydrich with STEN, but it got jammed, so the other member of the team had to use handmade bomb he was carrying).
The germas used police, army and SS troops, armed mostly with pistols/MP40s and grenades.
In the result all seven SOE operatives (six of them being Cyech, one Slovakian) got killed - four of them commited suicide after running out of ammo, one killed by grenade, one got injured by MP-40s and died during the transfer to the hospital, one got seriously injured by grenade and MG-34s firing from the other building through windows, he commited suicide. Thus the SMGs participated only on one kill.
The germans got about eighty injured, no dead. All injuries were caused by STENs and mostly they were only light. Assuming that SOE WAS trining its men to hit something it seems that STENs really weren't too effective...

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Post #: 42
- 5/26/2003 10:40:06 PM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		I stand corrected, Cyricist; the argument of era and of the weapon lacking useful sights makes sense. Though I can't imagine there weren't aiming techniques used. Probably similar to what's called "over the barrel" or "over the sights" shooting nowadays.

Which, combined with a cheap flimsy weapon, would leave one pointing the gun at a spot and hosing... which would lead to results like Marek Tucan's story. Suppressing fire, the casualties from which are usually light if it can't be sustained.

More to come, I found a new favourite unit... :)

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Post #: 43
... the Hungarian Engineers! - 5/26/2003 10:55:20 PM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, Hungary has some neat stuff hidden in their OOB. I was playing a long WWII scenario and needed to limit myself to under 100 units total. I wanted to do Germany... but didn't have the points to buy a German Engineer platoon. So I poked and poked, and the cheapest were the Hungarians.

Wow!! :eek: They don't have the best training, but they have something on their side. The 9mm M39 and later 9mm M43 SMG's. They have the same stats as the MP38/40, and are issued to Engineers, Paratroopers, and later to SMG Squads. Some research on this weapon shows me they were similar to some Police carbines: A rifle-sized weapon firing pistol ammunition. (Which, if the weapon can fire on automatic, fits the technical description of an SMG.) These things were roughly 36 inches (1m, +/-) long, making them less than ideal for urban combat were it not for the automatic fire. (Compare that to the roughly 2 feet (0.66m) of the MP38/40.) Still, being available early-war, these things are a great advantage!

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Post #: 44
OWENS forever!! - 5/27/2003 2:22:09 AM   
J_C_Caesar

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/14/2003
Status: offline 		Well I have to agree on the STEN being crap. It was simply mass produced from a hurried design in a stage of the war Britian thought it was going to be invaded and needed lots of men with guns fast.

Even an untrained zombie could hit something at 10 paces with tens of rounds fired out of a rattle trap peice of pipe. Providing they all come out in under 10 seconds. And if you had 10 blind grandpa's firing 10 stens thats a wall of lead that would hopefully kill something before they were masacred. They were nothing more then a stop gap weapon that were tossed as soon as they had time to find a better replacement. Where as the Thompson and MP's were designed and tested to work effectively.

The sten had no barrel worth speaking of, and certainly no where convientant for one to brace it without burning your hand after one clip, except by the magazine. Where as the Thompson did have the fore grip with with which to steady it, and hold it down. The Barrel was longer, and with short burst it is perfectly able to be kept within the general vicinity of where your firing, in fact I recall a WW2 footage shot of a US marine burning off an entire clip standing with the Thompson pulled into his shoulder with negligble rise or wandering. Even if he was only putting all his rounds in the 5x5 metre bush at 50 yards, it's still better then the 50x50 metre forest at 50 yards your hitting with your trusty sten. (figures have been exagerrated for dramatic affect and have actually not been tested by the writer but is willing to give it a go if anyone has a thompson and a sten.)

As for me I am Australian and the OWEN smg is my favorite, thought not depicted in the game as quite the gun it turned out to be. Aus troops were still using it in the vietnam war because it was reliable, accurate with a dang good rate of fire.

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Post #: 45
- 5/27/2003 2:31:43 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Knee-jerk reaction: Wasn't the Owen one really heavy piece to lug around?

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Post #: 46
- 5/27/2003 2:39:11 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		[SIZE=1]Psst. Hey Bel.[/SIZE]

Goblin

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Post #: 47
- 5/27/2003 2:59:56 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B][SIZE=1]Psst. Hey Bel.[/SIZE]

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

:eek: :eek:

[SIZE=1]I'm scared now[/SIZE]

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Post #: 48
- 5/27/2003 4:57:48 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Hey, I heard the Swedish K (sounds like a user name!!) was as heavy as a G3, but tended to be preferred... because it was reasonably accurate, automatic fire, you could lug much more ammo and it was smaller and handier in general than any rifle. And you could bury it in the ground or submerge it and the sucker would still fire.

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Post #: 49
- 5/27/2003 1:28:03 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		"K"? Do you by chance mean the AK4? :p




(this is a Norwegian sample, as the stock is brown instead of black)

That's identical to the H&K G3. Heavy (5.3 kg), but larger calibre (7.62mm) with good accuracy and excellent penetration. (My friends who were unfortunate enough to not get the AK5 told me they could shoot straight through at least 10mm of rolled armor...) Very durable as well. These are almost all distributed to the Home Guard.

Here's teh "new" hotness:



Standard 5.56x45mm NATO ammo, 3.90 kg.

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Post #: 50
- 5/28/2003 6:45:00 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Nope Belisarius, I mean the [URL=http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jwet/swede.htm]Swedish K[/URL], AKA Carl Gustav (not the modern AT weapon), AKA M45. Actually developed late in WWII, it saw service with many nations (stolen, copied, licenced, or bought outright) including the US Navy SEALs (and probably other services) in Vietnam.

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Post #: 51
- 5/30/2003 9:42:26 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Ah. That piece.

I'm actually not too familiar with the "K" designation, the only one I've heard is "Kpist m/45". Kulsprutepistol = bullet spraying pistol, model 1945.

Some Swedes with more service experience than me might fill me in on this, but the only "Carl Gustav" weapon I've seen is the AT "Grg m/48". (Grg= granatgevär = literally grenade rifle; kinda misleading) It's not new at all, it's been in use since the '50s. ;)

Anyway, now I know what you were talking about. It's actually slightly lighter than the G3 (4.5 kg vs. ~5.3 kg), but with the advantages you described above.

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Post #: 52
- 6/9/2003 3:11:47 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL

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Post #: 53
- 6/9/2003 3:31:01 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL [/B][/QUOTE]

...tough to beat it in close-quarters fighting. :D

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Post #: 54
- 6/9/2003 4:25:57 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL [/B][/QUOTE]

:D :D :D

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Post #: 55
- 6/9/2003 6:24:20 AM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm BBQ anyone?

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Post #: 56
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