Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

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ORIGINAL: warspite1




The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Heydrich: [to Kritzinger] Well then, this is the moment to be... practical, until such time as Germany can afford your philosophy, which is what? Hound them, impoverish them, exploit them, imprison them - just do not _kill_ them, and you are God's noblest of men. I find that, uh, truly remarkable.

Actually 'Conspiracy' was a darn good movie. What made it so chilling was how casual they were about eradicating a race of people.

warspite1

Indeed. The fact that so many around that table were university educated men calmly discussing the wholesale slaughter of an entire people is profoundly shocking.

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

perhaps they didnt check, and rather just only checked to make sure the author was not jewish or such, and perhaps the work of Fichte was never in question by the nazis either, i was just thinking about how they had devoted so much attention to just the White Rose students earlier, but as you say Germany was still not in total war mode in 1941 and things were probably sloppier then what the image of the totalitarian regime would put in our minds.

I very much doubt it. The Nazis moved very quickly to completely control German life as soon as they gained power in 1933. You couldn't join a stamp collecting club without it being approved by the government.

Cheers, Neilster

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ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

perhaps they didnt check, and rather just only checked to make sure the author was not jewish or such, and perhaps the work of Fichte was never in question by the nazis either, i was just thinking about how they had devoted so much attention to just the White Rose students earlier, but as you say Germany was still not in total war mode in 1941 and things were probably sloppier then what the image of the totalitarian regime would put in our minds.

I very much doubt it. The Nazis moved very quickly to completely control German life as soon as they gained power in 1933. You couldn't join a stamp collecting club without it being approved by the government.

Cheers, Neilster

Thanks Neilster - that was my initial view, they were pretty quick to clamp down everywhere early on - at every work site, business, university campus etc - Victor Klemperer writes about this in his diaries from the period. I would think that something like Alfred Kroener Verlag which was a sizable publisher would be one they would monitor. certainly there are no publications that are critical of the nazis in this period coming out of germany so far as i know of

whether this was still the case in 1941 though i am wondering if it was so - I have a book on the way Behemoth: Struktur und Praxis des Nationalsozialismus 1933-1944, that might shed some light on things further

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/

warspite1

I have never seen the German film - but would like to (so long as it has subtitles ) as I am intrigued to see if its as good as you say.

However I am would be grateful for your clarification re your comments on:

1. You say it is 'much much better' but also say that Conspiracy is almost word for word the same. That being the case, what is it that makes the original 'the real deal'? If its not the script then the only other obvious variable would be the cast. All I can say is, if the acting is 'much much better' than the BBC/HBO version then I would be surprised - but also even more keen to see the original!

2. The other thing is you use the word plagiarism. That suggests something illegal and that basically the HBO/BBC production team have passed something off as their own. There is copying (the best form of flattery) because something is so damn good, and there is stealing someone else's work. I have no idea on which of the two is involved here, although have never read anything to suggest that BBC/HBO did anything illegal. Again, I would be grateful for your input on what makes you say plagiarism (i.e. something underhand) is at work here.

Many thanks.

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ORIGINAL: durangokid

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/

warspite1

I have never seen the German film - but would like to (so long as it has subtitles ) as I am intrigued to see if its as good as you say.

However I am would be grateful for your clarification re your comments on:

1. You say it is 'much much better' but also say that Conspiracy is almost word for word the same. That being the case, what is it that makes the original 'the real deal'? If its not the script then the only other obvious variable would be the cast. All I can say is, if the acting is 'much much better' than the BBC/HBO version then I would be surprised - but also even more keen to see the original!

2. The other thing is you use the word plagiarism. That suggests something illegal and that basically the HBO/BBC production team have passed something off as their own. There is copying (the best form of flattery) because something is so damn good, and there is stealing someone else's work. I have no idea on which of the two is involved here, although have never read anything to suggest that BBC/HBO did anything illegal. Again, I would be grateful for your input on what makes you say plagiarism (i.e. something underhand) is at work here.

Many thanks.

Here you go, the German version from 1984, with English subtitles : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSNN5mnI2g&t=2671s

Both the English and the German movies had to create dialogue, however they were both based on the minutes that survived from the Wansee meeting of 1942 and found in the German Foreign Office in 1947.

As for the quality of the movies, it would be hard to better the English version, but it's surely subjective.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The German version, I saw it minimum 3 times. The British, only one

For starters, on the German movie I was watching nazis. It was natural, it was convincing. On the British one, guys trying really hard to look like hardcore nazis (and they fail IMO). Some histrionics that is (Branagh is a theatre actor I think)

A bit like my much admired Robert Carlyle. I really think he is a likable person, yes, but er his role as Hitler was just... weird

As Durangokid said, all is subjective though.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
Totally disagree on Kenneth Brannaarrr though - I thought he was appropriately menacing.

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
Totally disagree on Kenneth Brannaarrr though - I thought he was appropriately menacing.

Perfect example to compare. The icy coldness of the original German actor is much better than Branagh's apparent or failed toughness.

It's about casual bureaucrats, which make the industrial killing more menacing, inhumane. I stop: no more spoilers

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon
a film i saw recently which has a really disturbing and i think frightening even is Er ist Wieder da - it is fiction but also a good and actually very smart look at how lines of satire and reality can get blurred and people's cautious uncertainty can be gamed - the hitler figure in it is menacing when he needs to be, imposing when he needs to be and never without some response that can gradually lead an unwitting and incredulous public to start supporting him.