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RE: The Dutch are the first to Die!

 
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RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/18/2017 10:56:30 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This could be a real punishing turn for Japan, especially if he continues the 2000 foot 4E bombing runs against ships.

Historically, did the US ever use 4E bombers that low? Were the results worth it?



A couple of examples:


Dive Bombing a B-17 http://www.dba-oracle.com/dive_bombing_b_17.htm

Old 666 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666


"In May, Zeamer and crew made a skip-bombing run on a Japanese aircraft carrier, swooping within fifty feet of its decks. A few days later on a daylight bombing raid over Rabaul, Old 666 came in so low it was brushing the roofs of the housetops."

"On a night mission over Wewak the Japanese gunners on the ground managed to fix the flight of incoming American bombers in the glare of several large searchlights, but, in an audacious display of airmanship, Zeamer dived on the positions, shooting out three lights and damaging two others."


I mean a whole squadron of 4Es, in or out of formation.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 151
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/18/2017 11:15:44 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This could be a real punishing turn for Japan, especially if he continues the 2000 foot 4E bombing runs against ships.

Historically, did the US ever use 4E bombers that low? Were the results worth it?



A couple of examples:


Dive Bombing a B-17 http://www.dba-oracle.com/dive_bombing_b_17.htm

Old 666 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666


"In May, Zeamer and crew made a skip-bombing run on a Japanese aircraft carrier, swooping within fifty feet of its decks. A few days later on a daylight bombing raid over Rabaul, Old 666 came in so low it was brushing the roofs of the housetops."

"On a night mission over Wewak the Japanese gunners on the ground managed to fix the flight of incoming American bombers in the glare of several large searchlights, but, in an audacious display of airmanship, Zeamer dived on the positions, shooting out three lights and damaging two others."


I mean a whole squadron of 4Es, in or out of formation.


Yes and successfully at times.

http://www.avgeekery.com/a-battle-of-the-skies-proved-that-the-allies-had-what-it-took-to-beat-japan-in-wwii/

High-level bombing of ships from 4 EBs was not very effective. Low-level skip-bombing, which the allies adopted from the British and Germans (used mostly for destroying bridges) did prove effective. The B-17s were used often against ships, even before the U.S. began skip-bombing attacks. Here are some photos of bomb damage to the Myoko from a B-17 attack in the early war.

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/1473-ijn-myoko/

< Message edited by Aurorus -- 3/18/2017 11:28:38 PM >

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 152
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/18/2017 11:22:54 PM   
MakeeLearn


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The "Combat Box" bombing where the entire unit drops on the lead aircraft was more suited to high altitude bombing. Low altitude bombing puts the when to drop decision on individual aircraft. Plus it allows the use of the plane's guns on ground/sea targets.

Low level heavy bomber bombings was normal. B-24 was better at it and squadrons when possible would switch out B17s for B24s.

Ive started reading this...

"A War of Their Own: Bombers over the Southwest Pacific"



"In the fall of 1942, low-altitude and skip-bombing attacks ran contrary to prewar tactics, aircraft design, and aircrew training-but they worked. B-17s set a precedent for attacking ships from low altitude, increasing accuracy without dramatically increasing danger to the crews. In a theater where ships and shipping lanes represented the closest thing to a vital center that Kenney's planes could reach, these methods justified modifying bomber tactics throughout the Southwest Pacific. "

"But sometimes, especially because of the limited range of smaller planes, coordinated assaults were not an option. In these cases, especially with the B-17s of the 43d BG and the B-24s of the 90th BG, Fifth Air Force still chose low-level attacks on occasion. In April 1943, B-17s attacked a number of ships anchored off New Ireland, making their most successful attacks at low level: "In a period of four days beginning on 1 April, twenty-one B-17's and nine B-24's harassed the ships at anchor, attacking from medium and low altitude. The greatest damage was claimed by B-17's skip-bombing from 75 to 250 feet."

"B-17s had started low-altitude and skip bombing for Fifth Air Force, but by mid-1943 the tactical picture started to change. Low-level antishipping efforts by their smaller counterparts began to take their place"


" Before the results of those tests were officially released in December 1942, Kenney's B-17s attacked ships in Rabaul Harbor (October). Unable to obtain very fast speeds or low altitudes, they literally skipped the bombs up to and underneath the vessels or dropped a standard stick from a slightly higher altitude"


Ive started reading this book in pdf. I will upload if you want a copy


< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/18/2017 11:41:50 PM >

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 153
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/18/2017 11:49:44 PM   
Lowpe


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In WITP AE Allied 4E bombers on low naval attack are super strong it is why it is one of the most common HR. Almost impossible to fight off; the bombers almost always get thru, the volume of bombs dropped is staggering, and they also shatter Japanese CAP -- in conjunction with an Allied CV strike absolutely lethal.

It simply means that as Japan you need to adjust how you use your Carriers. The threat gets less severe once the A6m5c is around (and better planes), but it is still a big enough worry...that you never want to get your carriers with range.

I am sticking around Pearl, and I have some things in my favor: poor training, damaged runways, damaged planes, poor leaders and most likely no enemy carrier threat. However, a strike mixing very low 4E bombers, along with very high torpedo carrying Catalina's will certainly penetrate the CAP on the KB and get runs on the carriers.

Very dangerous. I don't even want to think about B29 on low level naval strike. Them on port strike is bad enough.


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 154
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:06:31 AM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am sticking around Pearl, and I have some things in my favor: poor training, damaged runways, damaged planes, poor leaders and most likely no enemy carrier threat. However, a strike mixing very low 4E bombers, along with very high torpedo carrying Catalina's will certainly penetrate the CAP on the KB and get runs on the carriers.

Very dangerous. I don't even want to think about B29 on low level naval strike. Them on port strike is bad enough.




If his allied commander sends precious Catalinas, with naval attack skill 20, at carrier CAP, I think Roosevelt should begin the search for a new Pacific theater commander.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 155
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 2:03:21 AM   
T Rav

 

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Just a lurker and will watch Obvert as well. It helps for all of us trying to grapple with this monster of a game. OPSEC will be maintained, as this is likely my last post. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

T Rav

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 156
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:15:15 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The "Combat Box" bombing where the entire unit drops on the lead aircraft was more suited to high altitude bombing. Low altitude bombing puts the when to drop decision on individual aircraft. Plus it allows the use of the plane's guns on ground/sea targets.

Low level heavy bomber bombings was normal. B-24 was better at it and squadrons when possible would switch out B17s for B24s.

Ive started reading this...

"A War of Their Own: Bombers over the Southwest Pacific"



"In the fall of 1942, low-altitude and skip-bombing attacks ran contrary to prewar tactics, aircraft design, and aircrew training-but they worked. B-17s set a precedent for attacking ships from low altitude, increasing accuracy without dramatically increasing danger to the crews. In a theater where ships and shipping lanes represented the closest thing to a vital center that Kenney's planes could reach, these methods justified modifying bomber tactics throughout the Southwest Pacific. "

"But sometimes, especially because of the limited range of smaller planes, coordinated assaults were not an option. In these cases, especially with the B-17s of the 43d BG and the B-24s of the 90th BG, Fifth Air Force still chose low-level attacks on occasion. In April 1943, B-17s attacked a number of ships anchored off New Ireland, making their most successful attacks at low level: "In a period of four days beginning on 1 April, twenty-one B-17's and nine B-24's harassed the ships at anchor, attacking from medium and low altitude. The greatest damage was claimed by B-17's skip-bombing from 75 to 250 feet."

"B-17s had started low-altitude and skip bombing for Fifth Air Force, but by mid-1943 the tactical picture started to change. Low-level antishipping efforts by their smaller counterparts began to take their place"


" Before the results of those tests were officially released in December 1942, Kenney's B-17s attacked ships in Rabaul Harbor (October). Unable to obtain very fast speeds or low altitudes, they literally skipped the bombs up to and underneath the vessels or dropped a standard stick from a slightly higher altitude"


Ive started reading this book in pdf. I will upload if you want a copy



Yes, I'd like very much please.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 157
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:25:52 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The "Combat Box" bombing where the entire unit drops on the lead aircraft was more suited to high altitude bombing. Low altitude bombing puts the when to drop decision on individual aircraft. Plus it allows the use of the plane's guns on ground/sea targets.

Low level heavy bomber bombings was normal. B-24 was better at it and squadrons when possible would switch out B17s for B24s.

Ive started reading this...

"A War of Their Own: Bombers over the Southwest Pacific"



"In the fall of 1942, low-altitude and skip-bombing attacks ran contrary to prewar tactics, aircraft design, and aircrew training-but they worked. B-17s set a precedent for attacking ships from low altitude, increasing accuracy without dramatically increasing danger to the crews. In a theater where ships and shipping lanes represented the closest thing to a vital center that Kenney's planes could reach, these methods justified modifying bomber tactics throughout the Southwest Pacific. "

"But sometimes, especially because of the limited range of smaller planes, coordinated assaults were not an option. In these cases, especially with the B-17s of the 43d BG and the B-24s of the 90th BG, Fifth Air Force still chose low-level attacks on occasion. In April 1943, B-17s attacked a number of ships anchored off New Ireland, making their most successful attacks at low level: "In a period of four days beginning on 1 April, twenty-one B-17's and nine B-24's harassed the ships at anchor, attacking from medium and low altitude. The greatest damage was claimed by B-17's skip-bombing from 75 to 250 feet."

"B-17s had started low-altitude and skip bombing for Fifth Air Force, but by mid-1943 the tactical picture started to change. Low-level antishipping efforts by their smaller counterparts began to take their place"


" Before the results of those tests were officially released in December 1942, Kenney's B-17s attacked ships in Rabaul Harbor (October). Unable to obtain very fast speeds or low altitudes, they literally skipped the bombs up to and underneath the vessels or dropped a standard stick from a slightly higher altitude"


Ive started reading this book in pdf. I will upload if you want a copy



Yes, I'd like very much please.

+1
Thanks to Aurorus and MakeeLearn.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 158
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:36:09 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am sticking around Pearl, and I have some things in my favor: poor training, damaged runways, damaged planes, poor leaders and most likely no enemy carrier threat. However, a strike mixing very low 4E bombers, along with very high torpedo carrying Catalina's will certainly penetrate the CAP on the KB and get runs on the carriers.

Very dangerous. I don't even want to think about B29 on low level naval strike. Them on port strike is bad enough.




If his allied commander sends precious Catalinas, with naval attack skill 20, at carrier CAP, I think Roosevelt should begin the search for a new Pacific theater commander.


Very common Allied tactic early, especially out of Luzon. Usually bags a couple of ships before Japan stings the PBY's enough.

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 159
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:38:14 PM   
MakeeLearn


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"A War of Their Own: Bombers over the Southwest Pacific"


Download

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Post #: 160
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:44:17 PM   
Lowpe


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MakeeLearn, thanks so much. Downloading now!

Wow, looks really great!

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 161
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:52:01 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

MakeeLearn, thanks so much. Downloading now!

Wow, looks really great!



Welcome. it's a well researched book. Very informative. Lots of info.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 162
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 12:59:19 PM   
Lowpe


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In the foreward: "flexible, adaptable, opportunistic, and entrepreneurial" in tactics used...sounds like this game!

Great stuff.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 163
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 4:00:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

In the foreward: "flexible, adaptable, opportunistic, and entrepreneurial" in tactics used...sounds like this game!

Great stuff.



"McCullar hit a cargo ship, 7,000 tons, setting it on fire; Sogaard hit a destroyer.... At 2,000 feet, we just couldn't miss!"

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 164
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 5:30:31 PM   
Xargun

 

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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

"A War of Their Own: Bombers over the Southwest Pacific"


Download


Thank you

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 165
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 8:29:13 PM   
Lowpe


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After much pondering, I have decided to go for the Kikka as the IJNAF kamikaze plane. The Army is going with the Toka equivalent Ki115 a and b; and I believe I can get the Kikka prior to 1945 if just barely.

I am hoping the speed will allow it to pose a very credible threat to the Deathstar...probably won't, but I really want to zero in on Kamikaze planes in this game even if I fail miserably with them.


(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 166
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:08:20 PM   
Lowpe


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China:

I am debating what to do in China. Obvert, is I think, an old China hand. I believe he really understands how to defend China, and doesn't mind taking the time to do it right.

On the other hand, I think I am pretty fair at taking China.

However, I often wondered what would a a game turn out if Japan prioritized this:

1. Cutting the Burma road, taking western China to include Paoshan and Kunming and only moving far enough towards Chungking to get into the x3 terrain.

2. Taking the Changsha Production triangle and digging in the rough terrain to the north.

3. Taking Sian and the northern oil at Urumchi.

And stopping. That is a lot of victory points left on the table, but the rest of China could be strategically bombed until there was no more HI/Li. There would still be organic supply however.

How much supply can Japan save that way? My guess is quite a bit.

At this point, that will be my primary effort in China I think. I am debating about moving fast to cut the Burma road (I still have the option) at the cost of not taking Singers so quickly (I have never been a fan of the Mersing Option but it is very effective).

Instead of taking Mersing quickly and cutting the rail line, I am posed to take Palembang very quickly with troops, AA and 50 Zeroes on a CVE. My basic thought was Miri and then Palembang and a strong move on Rangoon/Pegu (I have some thoughts there and they involve Barges, which I love).

So that maybe how the initial conquest varies. Not meta by any measure, but hopefully fun and interesting. I don't think Obvert is the kind of player that will pull a Sir Robin so it should be exciting too!



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/19/2017 10:09:35 PM >

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Post #: 167
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:18:37 PM   
Lowpe


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Dec 8th, 1942

Early morning hours near Pearl Harbor.

The Allies sortie PT boats and Destroyers so far...




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Post #: 168
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:21:33 PM   
Lowpe


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Mindanao




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Post #: 169
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:25:06 PM   
Lowpe


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Task Force 13 near Mindanao...will she run low on ammunition. Can she still meet up with her LRCAP come daylight?




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Post #: 170
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:28:21 PM   
Lowpe


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Luzon






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Post #: 171
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:31:05 PM   
Lowpe


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A slow minelaying Iboat scores!




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Post #: 172
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:34:53 PM   
Lowpe


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Task Force 13 carries out their mission, and now for the escape thru waters know to frequent Allied heavy and light cruisers.

Oh my!




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Post #: 173
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:41:10 PM   
Lowpe


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Northern Luzon, the British Destroyer Squadron




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Post #: 174
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:44:59 PM   
Lowpe


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Northern Luzon...




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Post #: 175
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:49:53 PM   
Lowpe


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A sleek, nice looking ship...it is the PC Isabel.






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Post #: 176
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:54:14 PM   
Lowpe


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Near Taytay...






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Post #: 177
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 10:58:22 PM   
Lowpe


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They were expendable....but where are the Japanese Carriers?




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Post #: 178
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 11:02:16 PM   
Lowpe


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A port strike...foiled by planes of the splintered 4th Sentai.




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Post #: 179
RE: The Dutch are the first to Die! - 3/19/2017 11:04:35 PM   
Lowpe


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They fly a little too close to the water...




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Post #: 180
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