1st Panzer Army - Second Mission

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1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 3/17/2017 7:41:25 AM

Snake726

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

Just to preface, I've played several Barbarossa games and the entire linked campaign in DC1 several times, so I'm not new to this series.

However, I'm having a lot of trouble in the second mission in the 1st Panzer Army linked campaign. There is some cognitive dissonance I'm experiencing between the orders and the reality of the scenario. You're told to capture Mozdok and Maikop, and pretty much the entire map worth of VPs. I presume mobility is the key. Then, of course, you boot the mission, and are instantly surrounded on all sides by fully dug-in Soviets, who keep coming at you.

My first attempts were all about creating breakthroughs, but I found I was easily cut off as my forces were divided between all 3 starting positions. I couldn't drive either way in any kind of force.

Then, getting more cynical about it, I thought I'd compensate by buying a few new units. I was initially confused about whether I should create units (it seems the answer is no, as they never reinforce in time even when also buying reinforcement troop cards, which seem to have no effect on replenish rate) or buy the more expensive full units. So I ended up buying the Romanian inf division,and both Jaegers.

Even then, I am stretched very thin. So much so that my new strategy is to simply circle the wagons on the middle starting city, forming a defensive infantry line to fend off the hordes of Soviets, and make armoured lunges out of the hedgehog to destroy each unit in detail.

To my surprise, this last tactic worked so well that I'm sure it must be intended to some degree. But again, the mission seems to enforce mobility. But of course by the time my defensive ring breaks off for the objectives, I only captured 3/4 of the map, which my superiors of course are not impressed by...

So what is the intention here? I'd love to hear from Vic, if he still monitors these boards. I was hoping for some mention of intent in the manual, and I've found no forum posts or player videos showing others playing through.

I'm not sure if the small scale is something I need to adjust to, or if the missions are in fact a bit broken, or balanced very hard (I'm playing on Normal AI, I can't imagine what dismal hell any higher difficulty would be on this map).

I mean, all my strategies for the first map work, each variation seems viable - but this second map not only seems challenging but is completely flipping my planning on its head. I feel like I am missing something (because I would want at least one infantry or motorized/mech division accompanying my panzer divisions for security after breakthroughs, but that simply doesn't seem possible).

Am I being too conservative? Is it really possible to rush for towns with the panzers, secure them for supply, and move on, almost abandoning your starting position - something like that? Given that the army HQ cannot move, it seems very strange as a strategy for the 1st Panzer Army to have employed...

Post #: 1

RE: 1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 3/17/2017 8:16:19 AM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

Its meant to be very hard. Even some of the best German generals eventually failed (scenario 3).

However it is beatable. Maybe you can get some ideas from this AAR:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3146315&mpage=1&key=

best wishes,
Vic

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Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to Snake726)

Post #: 2

RE: 1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 3/17/2017 10:43:20 AM

Snake726

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

Thanks for the quick reply, I will check that out!

Here are two snapshots of my last attempt for an idea of how I'm tackling it. It was honestly quite fun making the flanking maneuver, until I realized again that I had slowed down too much and became stuck. (Wouldn't let me post both images, but the end state had XXX Corps just down to Pyatigorsk)

Mission difficulty aside, I also tried looking up the actions of the 1st Panzer Army in the Caucasus and didn't find much material - if there's any research material you came across while building the game I'd love to be pointed in its direction!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Snake726 -- 3/17/2017 10:49:37 AM >

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 3

RE: 1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 3/19/2017 9:24:39 AM

Snake726

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

Well, the AAR has helped a lot in terms of strategy, but I'm just losing in a new way. Not trying to bag on the mission design really, but I'm not sure that the battles went anything like this based on my limited reading so far.

It seems that the Soviets conducted defensive operations to defend the cities, but offered no real resistance until Maikop.

Yet, in-game it is either a bloody tooth and nail fight or, using what seems to be the intended strategy, mini Barbarossa-style encirclements. Besides the historicity of such staunch resistance where it seems there was none, can troops really be encircled, pocketed, and passed like this on the regimental level?

I would expect instead for there to be more static defense around the cities, which could be pocketed and fought for against garrison troops, with the regulars attempting to fall back...

So while this is thought provoking, it has also been very frustrating - I've been trying to beat it all week, every day! It really does seem to punish wise operational planning, and reward more Chess-like risk taking. If I ever beat it, I'll be sure to post an AAR, but to be honest I'm finding the entire invasion of Russia to be easier!

(in reply to Snake726)

Post #: 4

RE: 1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 9/23/2017 1:22:47 PM

75Pak

Posts: 31
Joined: 9/21/2017
Status: offline

The key to success on mission 2 is the foundation you lay with mission 1. On the first turn of mission 1 you want to create one extra corps that consists of 2 motorized infantry + supporting units, or 1 motorized infantry division and 1 panzer division, or 1 panzer division and 1 panzergrenadier division, or [if you can get the points] 2 panzer divisions and 1 motorized infantry division. These will be built up slowly during mission 1 and by the start of mission 2 could realistically/reasonably be around 30-45% strength, and a few turns into mission 2 they can realistically/reasonably be around 50-65% strength.

Having the additional corps will go a great way to helping with mission 2.

Without that additional corps I find mission 2 to be virtually impossible. With the additional corps I find it only absurdly difficult, but not impossible.

(in reply to Snake726)

Post #: 5

RE: 1st Panzer Army - Second Mission - 9/23/2017 5:06:48 PM

75Pak

Posts: 31
Joined: 9/21/2017
Status: offline

I can always beat the first scenario, and always with at least 6 days to spare, most often with 8, and about 30% of the time with 10 days to spare. Beating scenario 1 with 10 days to spare gets you a lot of extra points [that will prove very useful].

The second scenario is very difficult to the point of being almost impossible.

I have not yet played the third scenario through to completion. I do not anticipate winning.

I have one play through going on where I decided to give myself the force I think von Kleist deserved and should have had to begin with; specifically, 4 panzer divisions and 4 motorized infantry divisions.

As it was, 1st Panzer Army was an incredibly small force for the task of conquering an area larger than the whole of Germany. In my view, even on paper, Case Blue was doomed to fail before it ever began.

Had I been von Kleist I probably would have said to Hitler, "if you can't provide me with at least 8 mobile divisions, ideally 4 panzer and 4 motorized infantry, in addition to providing enough mountain infantry divisions, and more importantly the logistics to sustain them in an offensive tempo, then you really have no business ordering this offensive." I would then probably have been dismissed/relieved of command and that would have been that.

The campaign in the Caucuses was basically unwinnable with the forces and logistics provided.

I would like to do a "what if" with the Caucuses, specifically "what if the forces moving in to the Caucuses were actually adequate to the task before them."

This basically means Von Kleist has 4 panzer divisions and 4 motorized infantry divisions, and 17th Army will have 6 German mountain infantry divisions, the 3 Italian Alpine mountain divisions, and at least 2 Romanian mountain divisions, in addition to various other infantry and cavalry divisions. I believe the SS Division Florian Geyer had just finished forming as a division prior to the launch of Case Blue. It should have been assigned to either 1st Panzer Army or 17th Army. This raises the next question, "assuming those forces were assigned to the offensive, could the Axis adequately supply them?" and my conclusion is "probably not" with a qualifier, "it would be possible to supply them to some extent, with extreme difficulty, but probably not a level necessary for sustained offensive operations by the entire force, simultaneously."

In short, the Caucuses campaign is a campaign where you have an inadequate amount of forces and what you have is inadequately supplied. It is not supposed to be easy, historically it was not easy.

(in reply to Snake726)

Post #: 6