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RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J) vs Gen Patton (A)

 
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RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 1:33:03 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Good grief! Rotator cuff, carpal tunnel, food poisoning...


You two are a menace!

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Post #: 121
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 1:37:50 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Rotator cuff was Brian.

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Post #: 122
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 1:39:27 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Thanksgiving weekend has me flying out to see John 3rd for four days!!

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Post #: 123
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 1:43:31 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		I'll send up the Boy Scouts to invade his store

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Post #: 124
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 5:31:15 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		For Larry and others, this is what I'm doing with Naval Shipbuilding. I'm focusing more on escorts (ASW) than the subs I have halted as my Merchants are dying by 1000 paper cuts. I found another 13 modern DDs that I can and will build as they are the best AA I have (Akitsuki).




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Post #: 125
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 9:04:40 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Akitsuki's are very good in stock ... not sure what was done here, but sure they are still good. those 10cm65 true DP guns really work, and IRL supposedly one of the best IJ designs.

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Pax

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Post #: 126
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 10/31/2017 9:42:14 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Akitsuki's are very good in stock ... not sure what was done here, but sure they are still good. those 10cm65 true DP guns really work, and IRL supposedly one of the best IJ designs.

Trouble was, they lacked a good medium range gun to back up the main guns. The 25mm just couldn't cut it. They also did not have enough directors to handle heavy attacks so it was possible to overwhelm the defence with an attack from all around the compass. But in support of other ships, they were very good.

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Post #: 127
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/1/2017 1:38:11 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Akitsuki's are very good in stock ... not sure what was done here, but sure they are still good. those 10cm65 true DP guns really work, and IRL supposedly one of the best IJ designs.

Trouble was, they lacked a good medium range gun to back up the main guns. The 25mm just couldn't cut it. They also did not have enough directors to handle heavy attacks so it was possible to overwhelm the defence with an attack from all around the compass. But in support of other ships, they were very good.

True, and sadly one of the biggest 'holes' in the game engine IMO. The 25mm didn't hold up IRL, but in the game, with enough of them, they do work. Not that it happens too often, but if the Kaigun is able to survive until late '44 AND complete all of their upgrades, the AA defense is much better in game that it should have been.
It isn't that the game engine doesn't account for everything, but more that it seems to be a bit too generous to the IJ. This may also be 'game balance' adjustment more than the model, which we know the devs did more than a little. (The "DP" guns on DD's are one of the biggest gifts, they technically could but the had to fully depress to reload, so something like 1 round/minute ROF.)
We also know that not only did the 25mm in general lack directors, but the ones the had were fairly crude, it was more up to the gunner to train the gun using the tracer rounds to 'walk' into the target. Finally, the aiming of even the single gun 25mm was difficult; the stated rates of barrel elevation and traverse were possible, but rarely achieved in combat as the gunner and his team could rarely coordinate so well.

Alas, as I say, when you start to 'play' with the data, you get into trouble pretty quick. The alogrithms (not surprisingly given their known complexity) are hardly straightline. You have to be very cautious in making any changes, and then in the end (at least I did) you achieve little more than to validate the stock numbers as the best compromise; they are too effective at higher altitudes (5000 ft), but feel right at lower altitudes (1000 - 2000 ft).


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Post #: 128
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/1/2017 2:27:40 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Actually, your best AA platforms are the CS conversions for your Fuso and Ise class BBs. They pack more 12.7 dp guns, generous 25mm AA and absolutely worthless rockets. You probably have some funky ships and upgrades in this mod....so definitely take advantage of them.

You are an expert at building good CV task forces in concentration, and I think Japan should always build their's on maximizing AA at the expense of some speed when there is any chance of them coming under aerial attack. AB are particularly nasty (at day or night).

To see the impact of a well built AA IJN CV task force, see Mr. Kane vs Jocke final CV fight which you probably read at the time.




(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 129
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/2/2017 10:56:38 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Size 3 forts is common for many bases, but which ones warrant the extra effort and supplies to go to 4, 5, or 6?



I like to go to at least size 4 forts. That way, when you lose one level, you're still good to go.....at least for a bit longer.

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Post #: 130
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/3/2017 2:53:44 AM   
decourcy2

 

Posts: 516
Joined: 1/29/2015
Status: offline 		Pax, I don't remember the number but it is something like 33% the Japanese AAA is already multiplied by. It would be much stronger if we did not have that penalty.

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Post #: 131
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/3/2017 1:27:40 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		West Central China: This is where there is almost daily action. The "Sian Pocket" is slowly being formed, but the Allies have some significant stacks of troops.

"A" allows only 30k in troops, so I can only get two divisions plus artillery there. The Allies have a 'few' more.
Last turn (Apr 11th) results.

quote:

Ground combat at 81,40 (near Ankang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 28139 troops, 268 guns, 131 vehicles, Assault Value = 857

Defending force 57453 troops, 42 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1429

Japanese adjusted assault: 292

Allied adjusted defense: 349

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), fatigue(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1513 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 100 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1223 casualties reported
Squads: 49 destroyed, 40 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
40th Division
116th Division
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
29th Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
22nd Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
88th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
33rd Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
100th Chinese Corps
7th Group Army
31st Group Army
18th Group Army
14th Chinese Base Force


"B" is where my timing was off. I came across the river from the East two turns in row. The shock attacks were not to kind to the Empire's troops. Here is the result of the attack on Apr 8th. The four Chinese Corp have over 400 AV each. The Helens from up north help, but not enough.

quote:

Ground combat at Sian (83,41)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 19623 troops, 165 guns, 36 vehicles, Assault Value = 970

Defending force 54512 troops, 294 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1578

Japanese adjusted assault: 262

Allied adjusted defense: 1800

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 6 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
3682 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 389 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 29 disabled
Guns lost 20 (1 destroyed, 19 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
544 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 69 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Assaulting units:
37th Division
110th/B Division
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
110th/A Division
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
27th Division
110th/C Division
1st Army
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
49th Field AA Battalion

Defending units:
57th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Corps
91st Chinese Corps
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
Red Chinese Army
38th Group Army
37th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
34th Group Army
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
15th Chinese Base Force


Plans: Reduce and wipe out enemy troops at "A" and then march south to close pocket. This may take weeks, if not months to accomplish.





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Post #: 132
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/3/2017 1:36:11 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Troops at Sian: This is how battered my troops are.




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Post #: 133
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/3/2017 1:50:47 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Western Central China: I'm at the outskirts of Chungking. I'm waiting for the stack with 12 LCUs to complete move west so I can come behind and isolate stack.






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< Message edited by ny59giants -- 11/3/2017 1:52:10 PM >

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Post #: 134
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/3/2017 9:10:44 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Size 3 forts is common for many bases, but which ones warrant the extra effort and supplies to go to 4, 5, or 6?



I like to go to at least size 4 forts. That way, when you lose one level, you're still good to go.....at least for a bit longer.

Mike,

welcome back!

Long time no 'see'!



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Pax

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 135
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 11:54:14 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I got up very early this morning and completed Turn 500 (43 Apr 19th).

Screenshot shows current situation in Aleutians. I hope to capture Dutch Harbor in the next few days as I invaded here on 15th. Ordered ground bb (bombardment) for next turn. Subs based at Ominato have now been rebased to Adak and are moving to be off Seattle and Prince Rupert.




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Post #: 136
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 12:23:34 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		So Pac: We have reached 43 Apr 19th. There have been NO offensive air missions flown by Allies the whole month of April. In late March there were some from Suva/Nadi (both AF9) to Tanna. Not in screenshot is a Amphib TF with 2BF headed for Luganville.

Tulagi: KB-2 and KB-3 with multiple SC TF. Brian knows they are there.




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Post #: 137
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 12:29:06 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I stated that there are 2 CD units at Luganville. Here is what one of them looks like. Nasty!!

If you are not familiar with BTS or BTS Lite mod, John added about 15 or so of these to Japan's OOB. For an Allied player this means those old, slow BBs at Pearl will be needed to suppress them when invading.




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Post #: 138
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 12:34:35 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Hey Michael, do those SNLF Inf Squad 43s show up in stock or only this mod?

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Post #: 139
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 12:46:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I stated that there are 2 CD units at Luganville. Here is what one of them looks like. Nasty!!

If you are not familiar with BTS or BTS Lite mod, John added about 15 or so of these to Japan's OOB. For an Allied player this means those old, slow BBs at Pearl will be needed to suppress them when invading.





These also have some of the best AA guns available to the Japanese, the 12cm/45 DP, the the 8.8cm too! With AS and engineers!

I don't think I'd even use the KB if I played this mod. Just build a lot of forts and watch the Allies impale themselves on the beaches.



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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 140
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 1:03:34 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Hey Michael, do those SNLF Inf Squad 43s show up in stock or only this mod?


Only in these mods by John 3rd. I'm just his assistant in some of these decisions, but an Allied player better learn "How to Conduct a Contested Invasion" PDQ.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 141
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 1:24:17 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		SE New Guinea: One mistake was waiting too long to invade and capture Port Moresby. Brian now has 28 LCUs there. He moves fighters in and out, but none this month. In a recent conversation, John 3rd urged me to go for the base. Should I??

Merauke:
P2, AF4, F3; 4.6k supply
220 AV - Assault Div, BF, Constr

Horn Island:
P2, AF6, F6; 26k supply; 2x AKE, AD
36 Oscars, 36 Judy, 62 Helen, 24 Jake, 12 Nell (recon)
310 AV - Assault Div, Air HQ, 7BF, 2AA (I noticed NO CD unit here. I'll send two from Tokyo next turn )

Port Moresby:
897 AV - 10th & 16th ID, 2 Cmbt Eng, 6FA

Dobadura:
446 AV - 48th ID, 14th Army HQ, 4FA (I had overstacked PM and had a small LCU march overland to open up hexside)

Buna:
P1, AF3, F3; 7k supply with 12k unloading
84 Tojo
237 AV - Assaukt Div, 4BF, Eng, 2AA

Umboi: CD

Manus:
P2, AF2, F2; 9k supply
48 Rex
479 AV - 52 ID, 8th Army, 62 Inf Grp, large BF, CD

Milne Bay:
P3, AF6, F5; 25k supply
45 George, 24 Jake
549 AV - 52nd ID, Air HQ, 5BF, CD, 4AA

Woodlark:
AF2; 18 Mavis; 2BF

Rossel: AF1, Nav Gd, 2BF, Eng

Rabaul:
P4, AF8, F5; 18k supply & 30k fuel
45 Zero, 108 Kate, 53 Nell, 20 Irving, 45 Lily, 12 Nell (recon)
330 AV - Assault Div, 3HQs, 3BF, CD, 2Port, 3AA




Attachment (1)

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 142
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 1:31:18 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

In a recent conversation, John 3rd urged me to go for the base. Should I??

I'd say: it looks like you have prepared as much as you could have....have a go.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 143
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 1:34:05 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

SE New Guinea: One mistake was waiting too long to invade and capture Port Moresby. Brian now has 28 LCUs there. He moves fighters in and out, but none this month. In a recent conversation, John 3rd urged me to go for the base. Should I??

Merauke:
P2, AF4, F3; 4.6k supply
220 AV - Assault Div, BF, Constr

Horn Island:
P2, AF6, F6; 26k supply; 2x AKE, AD
36 Oscars, 36 Judy, 62 Helen, 24 Jake, 12 Nell (recon)
310 AV - Assault Div, Air HQ, 7BF, 2AA (I noticed NO CD unit here. I'll send two from Tokyo next turn )

Port Moresby:
897 AV - 10th & 16th ID, 2 Cmbt Eng, 6FA

Dobadura:
446 AV - 48th ID, 14th Army HQ, 4FA (I had overstacked PM and had a small LCU march overland to open up hexside)

Buna:
P1, AF3, F3; 7k supply with 12k unloading
84 Tojo
237 AV - Assaukt Div, 4BF, Eng, 2AA

Umboi: CD

Manus:
P2, AF2, F2; 9k supply
48 Rex
479 AV - 52 ID, 8th Army, 62 Inf Grp, large BF, CD

Milne Bay:
P3, AF6, F5; 25k supply
45 George, 24 Jake
549 AV - 52nd ID, Air HQ, 5BF, CD, 4AA

Woodlark:
AF2; 18 Mavis; 2BF

Rossel: AF1, Nav Gd, 2BF, Eng

Rabaul:
P4, AF8, F5; 18k supply & 30k fuel
45 Zero, 108 Kate, 53 Nell, 20 Irving, 45 Lily, 12 Nell (recon)
330 AV - Assault Div, 3HQs, 3BF, CD, 2Port, 3AA





Victory disease claims another victim.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 144
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 1:52:48 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

SE New Guinea: One mistake was waiting too long to invade and capture Port Moresby. Brian now has 28 LCUs there. He moves fighters in and out, but none this month. In a recent conversation, John 3rd urged me to go for the base. Should I??

Merauke:
P2, AF4, F3; 4.6k supply
220 AV - Assault Div, BF, Constr

Horn Island:
P2, AF6, F6; 26k supply; 2x AKE, AD
36 Oscars, 36 Judy, 62 Helen, 24 Jake, 12 Nell (recon)
310 AV - Assault Div, Air HQ, 7BF, 2AA (I noticed NO CD unit here. I'll send two from Tokyo next turn )

Port Moresby:
897 AV - 10th & 16th ID, 2 Cmbt Eng, 6FA

Dobadura:
446 AV - 48th ID, 14th Army HQ, 4FA (I had overstacked PM and had a small LCU march overland to open up hexside)

Buna:
P1, AF3, F3; 7k supply with 12k unloading
84 Tojo
237 AV - Assaukt Div, 4BF, Eng, 2AA

Umboi: CD

Manus:
P2, AF2, F2; 9k supply
48 Rex
479 AV - 52 ID, 8th Army, 62 Inf Grp, large BF, CD

Milne Bay:
P3, AF6, F5; 25k supply
45 George, 24 Jake
549 AV - 52nd ID, Air HQ, 5BF, CD, 4AA

Woodlark:
AF2; 18 Mavis; 2BF

Rossel: AF1, Nav Gd, 2BF, Eng

Rabaul:
P4, AF8, F5; 18k supply & 30k fuel
45 Zero, 108 Kate, 53 Nell, 20 Irving, 45 Lily, 12 Nell (recon)
330 AV - Assault Div, 3HQs, 3BF, CD, 2Port, 3AA





Victory disease claims another victim.


+1

I notice at least 5 ID and 5 more of those SNLF assault divisions here!!

Supporting ops in So Pac has a real cost for Japan, and with this may units in play (not to mention in danger of being cut off easily in the next few months) the bill will be high. As I understand it this mod doesn't give any greater economic capacity to Japan, or greater ability to produce oil, correct?

I've done this as well, but learned in the end that the supply and fuel used would have been more important to keep the economy running in 45.

Second time around I'm still using too much, as it's hard not to, but i've given myself strict parameters about fort/field building, supply restrictions, fuel rations and lines I will defend and areas I won't go near. For me this is only way to remind myself that this is always an economical war first. I think your title already gets at that though.

< Message edited by obvert -- 11/6/2017 1:55:22 PM >

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(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 145
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 2:00:53 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Victory disease claims another victim.


Its been a hard thing to avoid in this game due to the multiple one sided victories I've had at sea. I've lost CVE Hosho and 7 DD vs 7 CV (4 USA and 3 Brit), 4 CVL, 4 BC, 7 BB, 15 CA, 17 CL, 2 CLAA, and 37 DD. Add in the almost total destruction of troops that start or are early reinforcement in India/Burma along with significant conquest in China. How would you deal with it, Jeff??

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 146
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 2:13:34 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		OK, here is a shot of the WITP Chart to show where my economy is right now.




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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 147
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 2:15:26 PM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline 		DONT KNOW NOTHING¡

pero has de saber parar las factorías cuando se debe y en función de los recursos.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 148
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 2:15:51 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Your Armaments pool level is up to 169K+ and I'm curious
as to what you're aiming for.

EDIT: I'd be curious to see your engine pool numbers.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 11/6/2017 2:17:00 PM >

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 149
RE: "It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J)... - 11/6/2017 2:18:03 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Here is the Oil & Res tab from Tracker that shows what is going on in Japan.




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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 150
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