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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 10:52:02 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what you're asking.

I would think one of two things would happen when 1,000 fighters and some strike aircraft on one side meet 600 fighters on the other: (1) the defending CAP could do whatever is necessary to take on the strike aircraft, thus suffering heavy losses from the enemy planes; or (2) the defending CAP takes on the massive enemy fighters, resulting in heavy losses to both sides but allowing some enemy strike aircraft getting through. What I wouldn't expect is for all those fighters to mingle and then part ways with minimal losses to both sides (unless bad weather interfered suddenly, forcing each side to return to base, but there's no indication of that).

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 421
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 11:32:44 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I struggle to see what a LRCAP of a base that has no friendly LCU or TF is achieving.
What is it CAPing?

You should get ESCORT or SWEEP unless you can CAP a specific friendly LCU, TF or Base.

I think use of the LRCAP in this case was not thought of by the devs and therefore allowed by the engine. (A House rule could cover this if required)

Obvert appears to be a good bloke, have a chat.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 422
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 12:08:07 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:


Sapporo has 864 fighters that are 10 hexes from Shikuka. He has 264 at Bihoro and more at Omininato. He's flying LRCAP at long range, which makes the LRCAP nerfing, if that's really what's happening, all the more irksome.


Didn't he nerf himself by flying at near the maximum range of his aircraft?
Was there time for lots of A2A?
CAP can go out for 2 hexes?
Did you shoot down most of his bombers?

quote:

Planes operating at extended range can be forced to withdraw due to fuel constraints resulting in fewer rounds of Air to Air Combat. 7.2.1.6


< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/24/2017 1:16:23 AM >

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 423
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 1:35:31 AM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		I am wondering if you should have some fighters very low, 4000 feet or so, to engage his bombers and not his LRCAP.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 424
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 1:46:11 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I am wondering if you should have some fighters very low, 4000 feet or so, to engage his bombers and not his LRCAP.

From CR's post 389:

"I have huge spread in altitudes - from 4k to 40k. The P-39s are low, the P-38s are high, in between are the Corsairs, Thunderbolts, Hellcats and Thunderbolts. I shift the latter around a bit so that Erik doesn't keep getting a set look."

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Post #: 425
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 2:59:18 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Per Loka's request yesterday to see more info regarding what happened, here's the complete combat report:



Guess number 1: look at the time for "all" of your planes to reach contact and compare it to the time to target for the raid. No groups had a time of less than 30 minutes. Many were in the mid-40s. That's very, very long. You must have had them set to some amount of range? And it looks like a low % of CAP per group, judging by the fact that no planes started in the air/engaged immediately out of the first 5-6 groups that I looked at. So in sum, your CAP looks "diffused" and wasn't able to properly respond to a raid. This happens whether it's 5 planes on CAP or 500.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 426
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 3:00:43 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


One last comment. I think Obvert has found a good exploit but it probably is true that the death star in itself is a exploit. I know a lot of Japanese players hate it. So perhaps you will have to do a little horse trading.


I really, really think that what happened in this one turn may have been a fluke combined with your particular CAP settings.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 427
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 3:02:09 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

To recapitulate, for newcomers to this thread, here are the questions I'm asking after yesterday's odd air battle over Shikuka:

1. Was an unusual air-battle environment crated by Erik using uber LRCAP that somehow "froze" my CAP?
2. If so, is there a reasonable counter-tactic?
3. If not, has my CAP effectively been nerfed so that I have no reasonable means of defending my base?

I'm still gathering information. Even though I think the answer to #1 is "yes," I haven't approached Erik yet. I first want to fully explore #2. If there is a reasonable counter-tactic, then everything's fine.

I've sent the next turn to him (last night) but haven't gotten it back yet.


I think I suggested some yesterday or the day before.

In short, move out of Shikuka and "abandon" his LRCAP. Or raid somewhere. Japan doesn't have that many fighters. It would require your carriers, but him basing 1000+ fighters over just a couple of airbases on Hokkaido means he's going to have very few fighters elsewhere, even in Japan itself.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 428
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 3:09:07 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I would think one of two things would happen when 1,000 fighters and some strike aircraft on one side meet 600 fighters on the other: (1) the defending CAP could do whatever is necessary to take on the strike aircraft, thus suffering heavy losses from the enemy planes; or (2) the defending CAP takes on the massive enemy fighters, resulting in heavy losses to both sides but allowing some enemy strike aircraft getting through. What I wouldn't expect is for all those fighters to mingle and then part ways with minimal losses to both sides (unless bad weather interfered suddenly, forcing each side to return to base, but there's no indication of that).


Last post in a row

Keep in mind that the numbers shown in the combat are an abstraction of the total available. Even those planes shown on the actual combat animation are not always actually there for the combat. Case in point: in my most recent turn as Japan, I had 54 fighters over a base (on LRCAP). A raid of 4 B-24s came in. There was no actual combat, despite seeing "planes intercepting now" in the combat report. Note the difference between altitudes, but even after the raid there was no combat. Sometimes that just happens, especially with LRCAP and especially when there is a very low amount of time between when the CAP is able to intercept and when the raid is overhead.

Another case where planes shown in the combat animation are not actually there for the combat are when sweeps incidentally arrive at the same time - oftentimes, the additional 25 planes from a second Allied group will not even participate at all.

There's a reason I try not to use LRCAP unless absolutely necessary. It really doesn't work that well - despite him having hundreds of planes "there" on LRCAP, you still ate up his strike package for a net loss for him (even relative to the 2:1 VP ratio).

quote:


Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 53

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 7000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
S-305 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (29 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
29 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 24000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 24000.
Raid is overhead
Unyo-1 with N1K5-J George (24 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
24 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 429
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 3:21:29 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Loka, thanks for looking into this and replying in depth. For what it's worthy, your hunches about my CAP settings are wrong. All fighter squadrons were set to 70% or 80% CAP at Range 0. Altitudes ranged from 4k to 40k.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 430
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 4:22:20 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

I struggle to see what a LRCAP of a base that has no friendly LCU or TF is achieving.
What is it CAPing?

You should get ESCORT or SWEEP unless you can CAP a specific friendly LCU, TF or Base.

I think use of the LRCAP in this case was not thought of by the devs and therefore allowed by the engine. (A House rule could cover this if required)

Obvert appears to be a good bloke, have a chat.

You are CAPing to interdict enemy air activity. Most especially useful to catch air transport. I never use it as form of 'escort' for bombing missions myself, so I can't comment on that usage.

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Post #: 431
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 5:28:39 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

I struggle to see what a LRCAP of a base that has no friendly LCU or TF is achieving.
What is it CAPing?

You should get ESCORT or SWEEP unless you can CAP a specific friendly LCU, TF or Base.

I think use of the LRCAP in this case was not thought of by the devs and therefore allowed by the engine. (A House rule could cover this if required)

Obvert appears to be a good bloke, have a chat.

You are CAPing to interdict enemy air activity. Most especially useful to catch air transport. I never use it as form of 'escort' for bombing missions myself, so I can't comment on that usage.

IMVHO this is an incorrect usage, historically. What the game allows is different.
IMVHO this is what a sweep is for, I've yet to read a book where fighters were "CAPing" an enemy base, plenty of sweeps though.

_____________________________

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(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 432
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 1:31:50 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

I struggle to see what a LRCAP of a base that has no friendly LCU or TF is achieving.
What is it CAPing?

You should get ESCORT or SWEEP unless you can CAP a specific friendly LCU, TF or Base.

I think use of the LRCAP in this case was not thought of by the devs and therefore allowed by the engine. (A House rule could cover this if required)

Obvert appears to be a good bloke, have a chat.

You are CAPing to interdict enemy air activity. Most especially useful to catch air transport. I never use it as form of 'escort' for bombing missions myself, so I can't comment on that usage.

IMVHO this is an incorrect usage, historically. What the game allows is different.
IMVHO this is what a sweep is for, I've yet to read a book where fighters were "CAPing" an enemy base, plenty of sweeps though.

Do you mean the example I cited of interdicting air transport missions?

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Post #: 433
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 2:09:12 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:


Canoerebel
I would think one of two things would happen when 1,000 fighters and some strike aircraft on one side meet 600 fighters on the other: (1) the defending CAP could do whatever is necessary to take on the strike aircraft, thus suffering heavy losses from the enemy planes; or (2) the defending CAP takes on the massive enemy fighters, resulting in heavy losses to both sides but allowing some enemy strike aircraft getting through.


But that is not what happens, in RL or gamewise.

quote:

Is it unrealistic to expect both sides to meet like a football kickoff?


From my short time in WitPAE, I dont see a problem here. Planes arrive in waves, there was very little "time" for A2A combat, Jap fighters turned back for home, most of your fighters were "vectored on to bombers" where they did well.



< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/24/2017 2:23:13 PM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 434
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/24/2017 3:51:07 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Loka, thanks for looking into this and replying in depth. For what it's worthy, your hunches about my CAP settings are wrong. All fighter squadrons were set to 70% or 80% CAP at Range 0. Altitudes ranged from 4k to 40k.


Huh. I've never seen engagement times that high with settings like that, especially not when the raid was detected with 50 or so minutes of warning.


I still don't think this is an issue with the engine. LRCAP often doesn't always fight (or even show up), or when it does "show up" in the comabt report/animation, it doesn't actually do anything at times. This is because of the loiter time over the target hex - his nearest airbase is extremely distant from Shikuka (8 hexes? 7?) so it's possible that his planes showed up in the animation but were never able to engage.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 435
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 7:48:44 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Do you have any ARDs in the Aleutians, or will all the damaged CVs have to go to the WC?

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 436
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 10:44:40 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Per Loka's request yesterday to see more info regarding what happened, here's the complete combat report:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 20, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 18
A6M5 Zero x 30
A6M5c Zero x 63
A6M8 Zero x 431
D4Y3 Judy x 21
J2M3 Jack x 75
N1K1 Rex x 20
N1K2-J George x 101
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 109
Ki-84a Frank x 140
Ki-100-I Tony x 38

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 57
P-39D Airacobra x 24
P-39N1 Airacobra x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 113
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
F4U-1A Corsair x 159
F6F-3 Hellcat x 114

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Brown

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 13 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 7 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 10 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 19000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 151 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 50 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 28
A6M5b Zero x 30
D4Y3 Judy x 36
J2M3 Jack x 67
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 100
Ki-84a Frank x 96
Ki-100-I Tony x 50

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 57
P-39D Airacobra x 24
P-39N1 Airacobra x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 112
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
F4U-1A Corsair x 159
F6F-3 Hellcat x 110

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y3 Judy: 18 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
P-39N1 Airacobra: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAK James D. Phelan
xAK Richard B. Moore, Bomb hits 1
xAK Phoebe A. Hearst, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Michael Casey, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 28770.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (5 airborne, 11 on standby, 7 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 9 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 1 on standby, 1 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 12 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 15 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
26 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 10 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 5 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 5 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (2 airborne, 8 on standby, 9 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Phoebe A. Hearst
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Michael Casey


The first obvious thing, I see, is that you have HARDLY any plane airborne at start. So my guess, is that they are still waiting on airfields. Now why is that? Poor morale, poor HQ leader? What happened before those strikes (well, if there would be sweeps, there wouldn't be so much US planes reported in the first place)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 437
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 2:15:23 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		It can't be that. All squadron and HQ leaders have good leadership stats. In fact, I spent well over 1,000 PP on leaders over a month preparing for the invasion. Fatigue and morale numbers for the pilots were all very good too.

I wonder if the airfield being overcrowded had an effect? It's level 8 with way more than enough aviation support but more squadrons than there's room for. My experience is that 600 fighters at a level 8 field will result in more downtime for plans that need repairs or maintenance but that it doesn't really effect the fighters that get airborne and most of them will get airborne.

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 438
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 2:17:04 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
Do you have any ARDs in the Aleutians, or will all the damaged CVs have to go to the WC?
Cheers,
CC


Can you imagine bringing along an ARD on an amphibious operation in which speed is highly desirable? Those critters make 5 knots, so I didn't bring any along. There is one in the Aleutians, but I'll likely send my damaged carriers to the West Coast. They're already east of Attu so it's not a long journey (especially to what I was accustomed to dealing with in my game with John III prior to the taking of Manila).

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 439
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 2:49:38 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

All fighter squadrons were set to 70% or 80% CAP


fatigue?

If CAP is a rotating patrol, at 70%/80% who do they rotate with

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 440
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 2:58:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Fatigue is low.

I'm not sure what you mean about "rotating patrol."

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 441
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:04:47 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Fatigue is low.

I'm not sure what you mean about "rotating patrol."



quote:

7.4.1 COMBAT AIR PATROL (CAP) When enemy aircraft are spotted by those aircraft that are airborne or by radar or ground forces assigned to watch for enemy aircraft, all planes available for CAP are scrambled. CAP Aircraft are assigned, but they do not all fly at the same time. They are divided into varying levels of readiness in order to maintain a standing CAP over an assigned target hex. There are three levels of CAP.

Airborne CAP is the most prepared, and can be considered that portion of a group of Aircraft Assigned to CAP that are currently flying at the assigned altitude. There is no delay in this portion of the CAP being in position to intercept an incoming raid.

Ground CAP, is the next level of readiness in the CAP hierarchy. This portion is considered to be on deck to rearm/refuel, or waiting to relieve the Airborne CAP in a ready status. There is little delay in this portion of the CAP Fighters to being airborne and in a position to intercept an incoming raid.

Available CAP is any ready Fighter that is assigned some mission other than “Rest” and can be scrambled in extremis. There is a significant delay in this groups scramble and may be manifested in the Available CAP only being able to intercept a raid AFTER it has struck it’s target. This is the POST TARGET Intercept phase.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 442
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:14:56 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Fatigue is low.

I'm not sure what you mean about "rotating patrol."



quote:

7.4.1 COMBAT AIR PATROL (CAP) When enemy aircraft are spotted by those aircraft that are airborne or by radar or ground forces assigned to watch for enemy aircraft, all planes available for CAP are scrambled. CAP Aircraft are assigned, but they do not all fly at the same time. They are divided into varying levels of readiness in order to maintain a standing CAP over an assigned target hex. There are three levels of CAP.

Airborne CAP is the most prepared, and can be considered that portion of a group of Aircraft Assigned to CAP that are currently flying at the assigned altitude. There is no delay in this portion of the CAP being in position to intercept an incoming raid.

Ground CAP, is the next level of readiness in the CAP hierarchy. This portion is considered to be on deck to rearm/refuel, or waiting to relieve the Airborne CAP in a ready status. There is little delay in this portion of the CAP Fighters to being airborne and in a position to intercept an incoming raid.

Available CAP is any ready Fighter that is assigned some mission other than “Rest” and can be scrambled in extremis. There is a significant delay in this groups scramble and may be manifested in the Available CAP only being able to intercept a raid AFTER it has struck it’s target. This is the POST TARGET Intercept phase.



They rotate amongst whatever percentage is set to CAP.

So if you have 90% set to CAP, then 30% of the full unit will be in the air (1/3), 60% will be on the ground/in standby (these are the ones that scramble in the combat reports), and 10% will be available as the final emergency scramble or as escorts (but if range is 0 then no escorts).

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 443
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:16:17 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It can't be that. All squadron and HQ leaders have good leadership stats. In fact, I spent well over 1,000 PP on leaders over a month preparing for the invasion. Fatigue and morale numbers for the pilots were all very good too.

I wonder if the airfield being overcrowded had an effect? It's level 8 with way more than enough aviation support but more squadrons than there's room for. My experience is that 600 fighters at a level 8 field will result in more downtime for plans that need repairs or maintenance but that it doesn't really effect the fighters that get airborne and most of them will get airborne.


It's still possible that every leader failed checks. Unlikely, but possible.

An overcrowded airfield could perhaps cause this, but that isn't really my experience. I don't overstack bases that will come under attack very often because of the greater risk to the planes while on the ground, but in the few cases that I can remember having done so I do not remember CAP performing any differently than usual.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 444
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:19:19 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I know what CAP is but I wasn't sure about your question. I'm still not.

I think you mean this: "Okay, you have 70% of your aircraft on CAP; that's a high percentage, so they get tuckered out and don't have much of a reserve of fresh aircraft to rotate with."

If that's what you mean, it doesn't seem to work that way. You can routine run CAP at 70% or even 100%. As long as range is set to zero, fatigue will be very low. Since the % is set so high, most aircraft are aloft or ready to fly, meaning response times to raids is low (which is what I'm aiming for but not getting, apparently). The drawback is that layered raids - a raid followed by another followed by another may eventually wear out the CAP, since the percentage aloft early is so high, leaving relatively few planes to take on the later raids. That's why I'm using 70% instead of the 100% (like Loka favors, I think).

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 445
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:20:34 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		IC

Rotation is within the 70%

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 446
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 3:49:12 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Interesting...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3605776&mpage=1&key=CAP�
quote:


"What is this?"

"Carrier support unable to supply air cover"

"CAP was set for all CV at 70% and fatigue was under 20 (most under 10) for all Fighter AGs. Had good leaders for both the TF and the AGs".

"Many small raids with a large CAP % => yes, your CAP can exhaust itself. Many small raids with a small CAP % and more likely to have CAP, albeit few planes in number, for more raids."

"Think of it this way: your CAP was up and in strength. But after 2 hours, they had to land to re-arm. During the re-armament another strike came in ... no CAP. Happens fairly often to me. My opponent (Andy AI) always seem to hit me with like +20 small, uncoordinated strikes that wears my CAP down."




< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/27/2017 4:21:42 PM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 447
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 5:13:36 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		I routinely increase my CAP percentage from the default I operate at of 50% to 70% when faced with a threat.

However, instead of restricting it to range 0, I set it the rest percentage to 30%.

Yes, it means I won't be escorting any sorties, but I am assuming a defensive posture, so the loss of escort is negligible.

With the setting of 70% CAP and 30% rest I can run this setup for days without appreciable fatigue.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 448
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 7:05:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I prefer to run CAP at 70% (or higher) at 0 range than to run it at 70% CAP and 30% Rest. Why? Because all fighters are available if needed and fatigue is very low when range is set to zero - always single digits unless combat has occurred. If I need range (for CAP, LRCAP, sweep or escort duties), I adjust things so that fatigue isn't excessive.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 449
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/27/2017 8:15:55 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I know what CAP is but I wasn't sure about your question. I'm still not.

I think you mean this: "Okay, you have 70% of your aircraft on CAP; that's a high percentage, so they get tuckered out and don't have much of a reserve of fresh aircraft to rotate with."

If that's what you mean, it doesn't seem to work that way. You can routine run CAP at 70% or even 100%. As long as range is set to zero, fatigue will be very low. Since the % is set so high, most aircraft are aloft or ready to fly, meaning response times to raids is low (which is what I'm aiming for but not getting, apparently). The drawback is that layered raids - a raid followed by another followed by another may eventually wear out the CAP, since the percentage aloft early is so high, leaving relatively few planes to take on the later raids. That's why I'm using 70% instead of the 100% (like Loka favors, I think).



As long as I have good leaders and good radar I will often set my CAP in the 20% range. I get plenty of response this way with planes joining the battle mid fight. And they seem to do fine. High CAP rates seem to sap morale but it just may be the way I am using them. I "never" set my CAP above 50% and then only do %50 rarely. I am usually in the 20 to 40 range. Like I said, if your base is loaded up with good radar, it does not seem to be a concern. I never set my units on rest because I have always thought that units on rest will never participate in a fight. Just a preference but it seems to work fine. If they need rest, I move them to the rear and stand them down. I set the range accordingly only to prevent units from flying escort. I never fly escort with fighters (only by accident), only LRCAP and sweeps over the target. Just goes to show that there are lots of theories and solutions out there.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 12/27/2017 8:23:07 PM >

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 450
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