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Four years later... - 11/3/2017 5:53:23 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline 		This month it will be four years since MWIF (Matrix Workarounds in Flames) has been released. The monthly report gave us a summary of the situation. Here are some excerpts:

Bugs
My task list is completely up-to-date. Sadly, the list is still rather daunting to look at. I’ll be going over it yet again to identify things that deserve to be corrected prior to my assault on the NetPlay bugs. [Well, good to know...]

NetPlay
I’m still holding back to making any serious changes to the code to fix NetPlay-specific bugs. But I am assembling all the notes on bugs and saved games to accompany them.

Missing Optional Rules & Half Map Scenarios
Nothing new in October.

AI Opponent (AIO)
Nothing new in October.

FOUR YEARS

And I'll add the "mandatory" buying of the physical version with books ($150) until, all of sudden, it was not mandatory anymore.

Now, I already anticipate some of the objections: "We know", "There are workarounds", "Stop always repeating the same things"...

First: it is my belief that we should never forget both happy and painful events, both personal and world-changing. This is why we have anniversaries and remembrances - something that unites almost every human being.

Second: in the (very possibly implausible) event that M(Workarounds)in Flames will be finished within November 2018, this will still mean that Matrix sold as complete (*) a game five years before it was completed.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot! We are in all fairness, not have been left alone. There is a prominent thread titled: IMPORTANT: State of the Game and Future Plans...!

...as of June, 2015. Then, curtain call.

Boy, how I would really like to celebrate this fourth anniversary by having my money back... (something any serious company would do - the emphasis, here, being put on "serious").

(*) I already mentioned this, but just check the tutorial videos: all the optional rules and half-map scenarios are shown as available - even if after four years we see how that was not the real state of the game - not to mention how we are still waiting for the missing ones.

Four years. Happy birthday!

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 11/3/2017 6:06:01 AM >

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
Post #: 1
RE: Four years later... - 11/3/2017 7:37:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Well as you say yourself in the post, we’ve been here before. I don’t offer up this post to start an argument, or to suggest that what you’ve said is all wrong or that you don’t have reason to be unhappy with how things have turned out given the money you paid. But most of those things are for Matrix to comment on anyway.

No, the reason I post here is just to add an alternate view to yours. Some will agree with you, some with me and others will have their own angles on the situation. But for me:

FOUR YEARS

I’ve encountered degrees of frustration from time to time as bugs halted or suspended games. Like you I spent good money on the product. I knew there were issues, but like many – even those who knew of the problems - I didn’t expect the game to be in this position after four years.

But that said, if I knew then what I know now, I would still have paid the money and I would still have bought those sumptuous books. Why? Because those four years have enabled me to play the finest game ever made. No MWIF means, for me, no WIF.

I know that some people in the past have stated as fact that if Matrix were not involved then there would be lots of game companies just queuing up to take this game on and throw the necessary resources at it. I may be wrong, but I can’t see how the economics support this comment for a moment. So, no Matrix, no MWIF – which, as I say, translates for me, to no WIF.

What have I got for my money for the last four years?

Well I dabbled at solo to get myself back into the game. I did this via AAR which meant a lot of help and feedback was available to bridge the leap between WIFv.5 and MWIF. It felt so good to be playing again, although the games ended early because of bugs. I then played PBEM with Ormster, and now I have moved onto four-way play with AllenK, Mayhemizer and Orm. This latter is simply the best playing experience; getting to play the finest game ever made with three other like-minded individuals, to produce fun, intensely fought games, in a totally sporting, relaxed arena. The game is playable (and the proof of this are the four current AAR (see above)) - although not perfect as we all know - and we had one long suspension of the game while Steve worked on bug fixes and had to use work arounds on a couple of occasions. None of these have ruined the experience, although of course have been unwelcome.

FOUR YEARS

And so I conclude with this, and I do not say this to make the position with MWIF seem right, because it’s not, but I do say the following to provide some context.

In the time that MWIF has been out, I have played and properly ‘got into’ three other games (there are others that I never got/partially got into). Those games – CTGW, DC:B and SCWWII were fun, I did AAR for them too and enjoyed playing those games for a time. I consider them value for money. But they had their limitations in terms of enjoyment and replayability (and to a greater or lesser extent, bugs too) and have come and gone – probably never to be played again. But MWIF? MWIF is still being played four years later and will continue to be so.

So for me personally, Steve has my huge thanks for sticking with the project, despite great personal problems, and allowing me to get the opportunity to play the greatest game ever made once more. Four years? I’ll be playing this superb game of games for as long as I am physically able – and there are not any other games – with perhaps the exception of CIV - that I can say that about.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/3/2017 8:26:31 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 2
RE: Four years later... - 11/3/2017 8:31:23 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
I agree, it is embarrassing.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 3
RE: Four years later... - 11/3/2017 1:23:27 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		To be honest, where Matrix are concerned, I side with Mr. RFalvo69 on that one...

This game should never have been put on the market in the state it was 4 years ago and not even in the state it is in now. And after this mistake happened, Matrix should have tried to do something about the way things are going now (or at least take a decent stand on how they think on how to make sure this game gets up to standards - because it really isn't). That's pretty disappointing. They should have done something about it, but they didn't. Personally, that attitude made me not buy any other game from Matrix, since I don't trust this company. Perhaps I'll buy another buggy game from them...

But having concluded that, I also have to agree with Mr. Warspite. No MWIF would mean no WiF for me too. That means to "carry on". So I look at MWIF as a glass of beer which is half full, not half empty...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 11/3/2017 1:24:03 PM >

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 4
RE: Four years later... - 11/3/2017 1:45:37 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		i don't own the game, as epic as it's sounds, i got lost on WITE then went head on into WITW and loved it, next to useless at it, but loved it all the same, i'd guess this would be one of those sort of games for me also, love it, but just no good at it, so why comment without the game either?

well and here's the short reply, as the long reply may make me sound like an @rse,...

value for money, i spent 29k on a motohome and had it for 8 years, and about 14 weeks per year and more than a few short breaks in it per year, so doing the math = 112 weeks so i'd guess at 10 week ends per year so add in that = 12 or so more weeks, so 12 + 112 = 124 weeks, with my normal weekly hols running at £1200 per trip so x 124 = £148,800...

so an overall cost of 29k seems rather a bargain for the holidays had...

so what's this got to do with a none finished game?

add in the amount of hours spent in game, including reading and learning, add in time on and off the forums, debating and talking, chatting and learning, and moaning etc, don't forget that part, then divide the amount of total hours by the cost of the game, then you have a hourly rate, and work out if it was worth it in the end.

then work out with every game a company makes money on, the amount they don't make money on, add in forums and server costs, wages and everything else and times it by the amount of items sold, by how many years a given part gets supported, and tbh i don't think anyone can complain, in the long run, what ever first cost is a bargain, simple put,...

if these didn't do it, who else would?

i'm 50 this year and each year for the last 10 or 12 or maybe even more now, one less developer has stopped doing war games and either quit altogether or gone into different markets, where there's a better % chance of making money or a living or both, as lets face it, very few war game developer are even full time now, so you wish them to work for less than what you all earn per year?

some games take 4 to 6 years to get to market, with others taking less i know, but even 2 years of one mans wages won't get paid back by many war games sold now days....

so yes i also agree with warspite1


< Message edited by zakblood -- 11/3/2017 1:48:55 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 5
RE: Four years later... - 11/3/2017 5:08:30 PM   
alexvand


Posts: 380
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I totally understand the initial posters perspective, but mine is closer to Warspite's.

I am currently playing my 4th game through of WiF. Dollar for dollar I have gotten my money's worth. I have played so many hours that the cost is well below a dollar per hour. That's good value for my money.

Your Mileage May Vary.

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 6
RE: Four years later... - 11/4/2017 2:51:10 AM   
tom730_slith

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/28/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alexvand

I totally understand the initial posters perspective, but mine is closer to Warspite's.

I am currently playing my 4th game through of WiF. Dollar for dollar I have gotten my money's worth. I have played so many hours that the cost is well below a dollar per hour. That's good value for my money.

Your Mileage May Vary.



Agreed. If they had not released it I would have missed hundreds of hours of geeky WW2 fun! I may be in the minority, but not only am I glad I bought it but I bought a copy for a friend (on sale) so he can have fun and eventually well play together!

(in reply to alexvand)
Post #: 7
RE: Four years later... - 11/4/2017 4:35:01 AM   
juntoalmar


Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline 		I understand RFalvo69 and empathise with him. All of us have hoped to be in a better position four years later.

But my personal position is closer to warspite: in my case, MWiF has been the reason why I have known WiF and, most probably, I won’t ever own or play the board game; only MWiF.

Although the problems experienced with the project, MWiF has been the best wargame experience I have ever had in my life. Even if I’m not playing at the moment (not for any reason related to MWiF, but because I’m too busy in my professional life) this journey has been completely worthy for me. The fact that I’m still checking the forums, enjoying discussions about strategies and answering this post, proves it. I love this game. I loved it 4 years ago, and I still do.

Knowing what I know today, would I have bought MWiF again for the first time? Definitely. It is, by far, the best wargame investment I have made in terms of (hours of play * level of enjoyment) / price. That doesn’t mean that I can recommend blindly to any other player (the answer to this question may be different for them). But I’m always clear about my personal opinion and express with no regrets.

Last, but not least, I would like to thank again Steve for the great personal effort he is going through with the project and his commitment to MWiF.

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to tom730_slith)
Post #: 8
RE: Four years later... - 11/4/2017 5:50:14 PM   
goulash

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 8/4/2011
Status: offline 		101% with the OP on this. As someone whom never played the board game but had a interest in these types of games, I had thought that I was getting into something that would have been great. Today just feel completely ripped off.

I have no love of the game just because it was a board game I used to play thus I am not going to be a patient as the rest of some people quite clearly are.

It was a disgrace and all we have had is just excuse after excuse after excuse. Some companies on disaster games offered a token gesture to those whom paid out for a somewhat broken game they had released. Here it is just a bit of clever forum writing backed up by avid fans and some suggested workaround.

I mean patch timeframes = a complete joke. I am not interested in the unpaid job of testing builds.

Do better with someone creating this on tabletop simulator on steam rather than waiting for this project to finish.

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 9
RE: Four years later... - 11/4/2017 7:24:46 PM   
Sir Roland


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Earth
Status: offline 		My Way is Fail

Another anniversary to remind us of a failed rollout.

Paid over $200 for this pile of code, maps, books and the hidden special.
That hidden perk. Paying to be a play tester.
That realization came much later. After full disclosure. It was not advertised as a special added deal-breaker.

When first purchaed my hopes were sky high. Learned how to use the interface in anticipation of netplay. Began an AAR that lasted til France fell. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3500040

Worked on mods (KiF) with memebers of the forum. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3628488
Posted problems real and imagined in tech support. Even managed to play a couple of unfinished games on Teamviewer.

Then that one recurring problem that kept me from really enjoying MWiF bit me hard in the a$$. The lack of player control over resource managment. It succeeded in replacing my enthusiasm with apathy.

Tried and tired of working with the AI ASSisted convoy system. Frustration over how its done in the boardgame vs the way its done in MWiF makes the game more trouble then its worth. All the computer power in the world can't replace MY ability to tell MY opponent how the Metz resource is going to the Metz Factory.

Getting build points to the correct powers. Sending oil and resources to specific factories. None of this is easily implemented game turn to game turn. Not with an AI ASSisted convoy system overiding your decisions turn to turn.

2.1.4.0 was the last time MWiF was publicly updated. Its the last update this/my game has recieved. Read we might get an update this month. Maybe my apathy will fade long enough to download and see how the AI ASSisted convoy system works at screwing things up. Expectations are low at best.

I've bored you all long enough with my apathetic post. I'll let the Dwarves of MWiF entertain now.

Good Luck gaming whatever you choose to play.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

aka Warhunter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 10
RE: Four years later... - 11/4/2017 10:31:20 PM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline 		told you so..

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Sir Roland)
Post #: 11
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 5:25:13 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline 		After reading the answers to my original post, I have some things thing to add.

I didn't call this game Matrix Workarounds in Flames to make a joke. I have no doubts that many people had many hours of fun with this - after finding their own workarounds.

I.e. by doing and still doing the work that Matrix didn't - even after paying full price for it.

Would you accept to pay full price for a plumbing job only to discover that, to have warm water, you actually will have to find your own workarounds? Yes? You would? Really? How I would like to be your plumber! But I wouldn't. I do own a restaurant/pizzeria. If you come to eat "chez me" be assured that I'll serve you the dishes you order: no need for "workarounds" like going to the kitchen and personally adding and cooking the missing ingredients...

...while I'm charging your credit cards for the full price.

IMHO, accepting this way of thinking means opening the door to a very dangerous possibility: what about a broken "War in the Pacific: Total Edition" which players will still enjoy because "they will find workarounds for the, let's say, broken auto-convoy system and incorrect use of oil"?

Why the tutorial videos showed (and still show) a complete game with all the optional rules available whereas four years later more than one third of the optional rules in the actual product are still greyed out (and the half-map scenarios, another given, are by now synonymous with "nothing new")? Why the same videos do mention Netplay as a given?

Some will pipe "This game made me learn WiF!" Good for you. The tutorials, however, are freely available on Youtube (a form of false advertising, BTW - see, for example, the internet gaming, the half-map scenarios and the optional rules shown as if they are all present and working with no mention that the game is incomplete ---> https://tinyurl.com/ydyw262f - which also means, ironically, that Matrix is false advertising the game within the game itself!)

And after you watched the tutorials for free on YT, the WiF VASSAL modules are among the best available, and the online WiF community is there to help you to learn the game. As amazing as it sound, people learned how to play WiF decades before MWiF came out. This because people actually learned to play wargames and boardgamesby simply readying the ****ing manuals for almost a century now.

Between August ad now I learned to play The Gamer's OCS system even if there is not a game by Matrix on it.

And what have you learned anyway thanks to this wonderful MWiF? How to play another product, a cardboard one, for which you will have to shell hundreds of dollars more? (incidentally, I'll stress again how we are waiting for the completion of something that, by now, is obsolete - I Kickstarted the new Collector Edition edition and I'll get it within Christmas; something tells me that I'll not get missing counter-sheets or maps - needing for me to find "workarounds" for...)

Why there were no "Status of the game and future plans" after 2015?

Why there was not the decency by Matrix to refund at least the price of the books when they were no more mandatory - and the game was years away from completion anyway?

And, most importantly, what would bar Matrix to behave again like they did with MWiF?






If we accept what happened here (because, you know, there are workarounds, we will flatly lose any right to protest and call Matrix out every time any future game will be published while being months or years away from being completed. We will be forced to gladly accept, out of coherence, that a broken framework we paid full price for is enough for us to "have tons of hours of fun".

This is something that I, personally (but also, IMHO, any person living in a World where decency is a value) cannot accept.

I bought the game out of good faith. I had patience. And I'm eating the bullet I took - because, beside venting my frustration, there is nothing more I can do.

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so! There are workarounds!" - because the next guy who buys a game by Matrix, or any other company will not deserve this.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 12
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 5:54:22 AM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline 		There is a group of acolytes that seems to get some fun out of the game as it is. They may have their reasons.. you know .. like Amish People have also have reasons for denying years of progress in the word around them.

If you think Matrix/Slitherine scamed you, just boycot and slander their products. Don't buy from US/UK distributors anymore, at least be clear that they have no customer rights there. If you get scammed there burden of proof will generally fall upon the buying party, not the selling party.

MWiF is a train wreck.. with little salvage value.


p.s: Good choice on OCS! PM me if you are looking for a vassal game.

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 13
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 7:45:12 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so!


Can I ask you to confirm who said it was acceptable? As far as I can tell no one has said it’s acceptable. Yes, we’ve had the car analogies and now the plumbing analogies. We get the point and no one on this thread is actually disagreeing with you about that that I can see.

I suspect for most people on this forum MWIF is not the first computer game we’ve bought and it sure as hell is not the first game that has had issues – ranging from the irritating but got there eventually (by which time many had lost interest and given up) to unplayable, buggy crap that never got supported (or a token gesture of support that lasted about 5 minutes). It’s not right, but that is how areas of the industry has been for years. Maybe some people have boycotted such games and/or specific firms, but based on the comments I hear, I suspect most people suck it up because ‘it is what it is’ and they want to play these games.

My post was simply to give an alternate view on how MWIF – for all its faults – at least makes WIF accessible to those for whom it otherwise wouldn’t be. You’re angry with Matrix – okay fine, and we understand why having paid the money you did - but please don’t follow the ignorant avenue whereby that frustration makes you lash out at those people – people like you that have spent their hard earned money – who are just trying to make the best out of the situation in order to play the greatest game ever made. If you do you might end up making dumb, crass comments like this…..

quote:

Dabrion

There is a group of acolytes that seems to get some fun out of the game as it is. They may have their reasons.. you know .. like Amish People have also have reasons for denying years of progress in the word around them.


This is just a childish hissy fit railing against who? fellow consumers who have paid money too. “They may have their reasons” yes, as he knows full well, the reasons have been given by those above. We want to play WIF and can’t without MWIF. And for that we are trying to make the best of things. To childishly suggest we must be 'progress deniers' oh and 'acolytes' too is not justified and certainly not helpful.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/5/2017 8:16:59 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 14
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 8:56:01 AM   
juntoalmar


Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline 		So, some people have found other fellows who's personal experiences and conclusions are different than theirs (and can't convince them to change their minds)

Outrageous!



_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 15
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 8:19:06 AM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

So, some people have found other fellows who's personal experiences and conclusions are different than theirs (and can't convince them to change their minds)

Outrageous!




junto a lacama; very interesting el LINK de cabeza de puente¡¡

EL WORDL OF FLORES este mu wapo¡

< Message edited by Zecke -- 11/5/2017 8:20:31 AM >

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 16
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 10:13:07 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so!


Can I ask you to confirm who said it was acceptable?


"This game gave me hundreds of hours of fun!!!!!111" etc. You can find these quotes everywhere.

quote:


This is just a childish hissy fit


I agree that it can only be an hissy fit - because this is what happens when you are scammed. But I disagree that it is childish - unless you think that expecting for any kind of product or service you paid for works as advertised is childish.

quote:

To childishly suggest we must be 'progress deniers' oh and 'acolytes' too is not justified and certainly not helpful.


Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam. Childishly.

I have played tons of computer games, and some of them were very buggy, and some of these were never fixed. But I never saw someone asking $150 for a product five years from being completed and then leaving the buyers hanging.

By entering its fourth year of "Half map scenarios: nothing new", "Missing optional rules: nothing new" (*), MWiF symbolically topped Battlecruiser 3000AD as the farce of the videogaming world. And this is quite THE achievement that MWiF got.

(*) Did I mention that if someone looks on YT how this game is he will be presented MWiF as finished? Yes, I did. How childish from me to point out how the scam is still going on, isn't it?

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 17
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 10:44:53 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Well as I said, I wasn't looking for an argument, just a grown up exchange of views - but clearly you are so I'll say this and then leave you to spout whatever rubbish you want.

quote:

This game gave me hundreds of hours of fun


You quote this as though someone saying that is also saying that the position is acceptable and that the two must follow. Fine, if that is what you want to believe then go ahead. But just to try and make clear for the intergalactically hard of understanding: I've had hours of fun with the game but that does not make how it was sold right. There, does that make it clear or do you want to ignore or misrepresent that too????

quote:

This is just a childish hissy fit


So you think attacking ordinary paying consumers is okay? Like we made the decision to sell the game, like we have a hand in the profits? Get a grip. What has happened has happened and its not right. But we have three ways of going forward. Having spent the money we can try and do something positive (if we think the game is worth the aggro) - or we can walk away and put it down to experience - or we can whine, bitch and moan. I chose the former, some chose the middle option, while you chose the latter. Okay. Maybe that says something about our attitude to life.

quote:

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.


So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.

quote:

But I never saw someone asking $150 for a product five years from being completed and then leaving the buyers hanging.


You haven't been around the computer games (or wargames market generally) for very long then have you? Or is the magic figure $150? What so anyone left with a useless unsupported game for which they paid $30 say, they don't count right? Only Matrix? Ever heard of HMS/GRD?? I think you need a dose of reality and you need to stop distorting the truth of what is going on and has been for years.

Anyway, I'm off to recoup some of the money I paid out by playing the best wargame ever made with some grown ups.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 18
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 11:53:55 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


You quote this as though someone saying that is also saying that the position is acceptable and that the two must follow. Fine, if that is what you want to believe then go ahead. But just to try and make clear for the intergalactically hard of understanding: I've had hours of fun with the game but that does not make how it was sold right. There, does that make it clear or do you want to ignore or misrepresent that too????


Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.

quote:

Okay. Maybe that says something about our attitude to life.


My attitude to life is to do the services I’m paid for and to expect the same in return. Your mileage may vary.

quote:

quote:

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.


So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.


So to find you in the opposite lawyer seat? :D

quote:

Anyway, I'm off to recoup some of the money I paid out by playing the best wargame ever made with some grown ups.


Me too. The one, you know, with paper maps and counters, dice, and all the optional rules and half-map scenarios accounted for And since day one, I might add. Which means totally not this one.

Four years... Bah.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 19
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 12:01:00 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.


I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.

quote:

So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.


So to find you in the opposite lawyer seat? :D


Do you not understand how bankrupt your argument is? Why would I be in the opposite chair? You would be claiming the game was not sold as advertised. Why would I - after everything I've said - be stating the opposite is true?? Why, I mean why, can't you understand what is being said. Why? Are you trolling or do you genuinely not understand? I am making the best of the situation. Its really not difficult.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 20
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 12:07:53 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.


I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.


That, I can see.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 1:05:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.


I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.


That, I can see.
warspite1

Thank-you for more facile comments - you kind of specialise in them don't you. Although on reflection they are more dumb than facile.

Why would I go to a forum with a working game and tell them that the game will still be broken in four years (even though its not broken now)?????


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 22
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 1:42:56 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.


I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.


That, I can see.
warspite1

Thank-you for more facile comments - you kind of specialise in them don't you.


If I don't see the need to waste words I don't do that. I made longer posts in this very thread every time I felt it was needed.

quote:


Why would I go to a forum with a working game and tell them that the game will still be broken in four years (even though its not broken now)?????


See the part I but in bold and italics? That's the key point. People here are accepting a status of things that no buyer of those games would ever have accepted.

Have you even read the parts of the Nov, 2017 status report I reported here? I will report again two of them:

Bugs
My task list is completely up-to-date. Sadly, the list is still rather daunting to look at. I’ll be going over it yet again to identify things that deserve to be corrected prior to my assault on the NetPlay bugs. [Well, good to know...]

NetPlay
I’m still holding back to making any serious changes to the code to fix NetPlay-specific bugs. But I am assembling all the notes on bugs and saved games to accompany them.

That's MWiF for you after four years. Are "difficult" words really needed? Yeah, I didn't think so either.

Next time you have $150 to waste, I do have a bridge to sell you. True you need to actually swim to reach the other side. But swimming is fun! (even if your $150 were for a bridge) isn't it?

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 23
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 1:47:53 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Offhand, I don't feel so much like a beta tester as I feel like an investor. It was my money and my choice to buy this game upon release, knowing full well it did not have the ETO Fascist Tide half map scenario that I really want to play nor a computer opponent which is how I prefer to play. I knew it was going to be a while before I got these two features. I did not expect the wait to be this long, but I continue to patiently wait. They will come eventually, unless something disastrous happens to Steve. Hopefully not.

I was interested in WiF and still am. What were my options? Buy the boardgame. That's more expensive than MWiF, physically huge, and frankly totally unplayable as a newbie with limited time or space to actually play it. MWiF, even with bugs and promised features still missing, offered a path to learn the game at my own pace AND support the developer to continue developing the features I wanted. That's a Win-Win.

I've been buying and playing computer wargames since the 1990s and there are some lessons learned. 1) All games are released with some bugs and missing features. 2) All games require several patches to (mostly) resolve #1. 3) All games sooner or later hit a "pencils Down" point where the developer is basically working for free to provide CPR on an increasingly obsolete game and he needs to move on to the next game engine to make money. Unless he can afford to work for free; most spouses tend to disagree with a decision along these lines.

So. Maybe, perhaps, Matrix Games could/should consider some other options such as offering new games (knowing #1) at a pre-release discount. Maybe that would help. The other option is for customers (also knowing #1 unless they're totally naïve) to NOT buy new games upon release but to prudently wait until #2 happens and/or the game goes on sale or something. But seriously, are folks so naïve to still buy new games and still expect them to be perfect?? Sorry, I got zero sympathy. Wake up and smell the coffee, and reconsider if you really want to buy the shiny new toy and get yourself unnecessarily frustrated about #1 (unless you do consider yourself a willing beta tester volunteer and/or investor) or simply just wait until #2 happens or a sale happens. Or just don't buy/play the game ever until it's dead and unsupported but offered at a dirt cheap price. Pick one. And remember always, it's just a game for entertainment. For fun. Seriously, your life does not depend on a game.

< Message edited by pzgndr -- 11/5/2017 1:48:18 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 24
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 1:59:25 PM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline 		That escalated quickly.. I suggest someone goes back to his cozy AAR forum. I am not jerking in your threats there like you do here? Show respect little boy or I will resurrect the Grand Old Lady from the bottom of the Mediterranean to have you punished!

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 25
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 2:04:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.


I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.


That, I can see.
warspite1

Thank-you for more facile comments - you kind of specialise in them don't you.


If I don't see the need to waste words I don't do that. I made longer posts in this very thread every time I felt it was needed.

quote:


Why would I go to a forum with a working game and tell them that the game will still be broken in four years (even though its not broken now)?????


See the part I but in bold and italics? That's the key point. People here are accepting a status of things that no buyer of those games would ever have accepted.

Have you even read the parts of the Nov, 2017 status report I reported here? I will report again two of them:

Bugs
My task list is completely up-to-date. Sadly, the list is still rather daunting to look at. I’ll be going over it yet again to identify things that deserve to be corrected prior to my assault on the NetPlay bugs. [Well, good to know...]

NetPlay
I’m still holding back to making any serious changes to the code to fix NetPlay-specific bugs. But I am assembling all the notes on bugs and saved games to accompany them.

That's MWiF for you after four years. Are "difficult" words really needed? Yeah, I didn't think so either.

Next time you have $150 to waste, I do have a bridge to sell you. True you need to actually swim to reach the other side. But swimming is fun! (even if your $150 were for a bridge) isn't it?
warspite1

Yes we've done the car and the plumbing job - and now we have the bridge. We know (how many times can it be explained and agreed with?) that it is not right?

Yes of course I've read the status reports - and they make for unfortunate reading (although if like me you are trying to make the best of a bad situation, and are hoping that things will work out then they are also encouraging as Steve remains committed to the project).

As to the point about what no buyer of WITP-AE or WITW or any other game would have accepted, I am sorry but you are wrong. Totally wrong. You know why? Because people are people, and the reaction those games would have got would have been similar to MWIF. Some players angry they wasted their money who walked away, players angry, but who see the potential and want to play the game, and players who are angry and who only want to bitch, whine and moan. What is slightly different with MWIF is that a lot of the players who continue to stick around do so because they know (from an earlier boardgame) how good this is and why they should stick around. That wouldn't be the case with the other two games I mentioned, but the subject matter means that some people would have stuck with them.

Look at Empires in Arms. I didn't play the board game, and when the game arrived buggy as hell, I couldn't be arsed to stick around for long. I knew from the forum that there may be issues but I went ahead with the purchase anyway. My fault. I hung around for a while and then got fed up. I'm a big boy, I took it like a man and moved on. I didn't hang around moaning and worse, insulting players who were trying their best to stay positive and make it work.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/5/2017 2:09:07 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 26
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 2:05:35 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

That escalated quickly.. I suggest someone goes back to his cozy AAR forum. I am not jerking in your threats there like you do here? Show respect little boy or I will resurrect the Grand Old Lady from the bottom of the Mediterranean to have you punished!
warspite1

Well done! Er.... except she's not at the bottom of the Mediterranean

BTW, I wasn't jerking - as you politely call it, I simply provided an alternate view point while agreeing with the OP's main point. But then certain people had to start throwing their toys out of the pram...again


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/5/2017 2:10:34 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 27
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 3:27:11 PM   
PorcelainBus

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		You're the one "throwing their toys out of the pram" supporting the unsupportable. I paid a **** load of money for a game that is unplayable and i'm pissed too. Had a copy of Chris Marinari's (spelling) original and it was better than this abortion of a "game". You seem happy for people to spend their money and "walk away" but challenge anyone who spent their money and are vocal about the rip off "Some players angry they wasted their money who walked away" How does that work for you?
"Players who are angry and who only want to bitch, whine and moan." So you think it's ok for purchasers to be feel ripped off but keep it to themselves?? Speak up and they face the ridicule of Warspite1??
Oh, but you're only providing "an alternate view point while agreeing with the OP's main point" - yet attacking the op as being childish in their view?
I read your AAR and enjoy seeing that you and the other's are enjoying your experience - but don't dictate to me or any others who feel totally ripped off that we are "being childish".

PB


< Message edited by PorcelainBus -- 11/5/2017 3:44:01 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 3:46:23 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PorcelainBus

You're the one "throwing their toys out of the pram" supporting the unsupportable. I paid a **** load of money for a game that is unplayable and i'm pissed too. Had a copy of Chris Marinari's (spelling) original and it was better than this abortion of a "game". You seem happy for people to spend their money and "walk away" but challenge anyone who spent their money and are vocal about the rip off "Some players angry they wasted their money who walked away" How does that work for you?
"players who are angry and who only want to bitch, whine and moan." So you think it's ok for purchasers to be feel ripped off but keep it to themselves?? Speak up and they face the ridicule of Warspite1??
Oh, but you're omly providing "an alternate view point while agreeing with the OP's main point" - yet attacking the op as being childish in their view?
I read your AAR and enjoy seeing that you and the other's are enjoying your experience - but don't dictate to me or any others who feel totally ripped off that we are "being childish".

PB

warspite1

Another one. How about this. I'll type slowly so perhaps you can understand. I suspect not, but hey, it's worth a go.

quote:

You seem happy for people to spend their money and "walk away"

Why would I be happy for people to waste their money buying something that was not as advertised? Instead of making puerile comments, why not deal with the facts. Why would you say I am happy given everything I have written?

quote:

and are vocal about the rip off

Be as vocal as they like - if that is what they want to do and feel that is good use of their time. So long as they blame those deserving of blame and not consumers who've spent their money.

quote:

How does that work for you?

Puerile

quote:

So you think it's ok for purchasers to be feel ripped off but keep it to themselves?

No - as I've made clear, the OP voiced his opinion (which I did not say he shouldn't do) and I provided an alternate view. As said, if people want to rant about the situation that is fine. But don't insult people who have also spent good money (but who just try and make the best of things). Acolytes? Amish? Making totally false statements that anyone who is trying to remain positive sees no problem in what has gone before. All that nonsense is what I object to. And you've just added to it.

quote:

Oh, but you're omly providing "an alternate view point while agreeing with the OP's main point" - yet attacking the op as being childish in their view?

Please read. As per above, I didn't 'attack' until the nonsense started.

Another attempt: Those of us who are trying to get the game working and who support the project, having shelled out our hard-earned cash, are not the 'guilty' people here. And if by some miracle (well Steve's hard work actually) the game does end up with an AI and netplay etc etc, then there will be no need to thank those of us who are helping.

Another attempt: In trying to stay positive and help the game along, I am not saying what has gone before is correct.

There now - which bit of that crystal clear English do you fail to understand??

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/5/2017 3:55:47 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to PorcelainBus)
Post #: 29
RE: Four years later... - 11/5/2017 4:33:53 PM   
PorcelainBus

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		"Another one. How about this. I'll type slowly so perhaps you can understand. I suspect not, but hey, it's worth a go."
"Why would I be happy for people to waste their money buying something that was not as advertised? Instead of making puerile comments, why not deal with the facts. Why would you say I am happy given everything I have written?"

Let me type s l o w l y for you. You "seem" happy because you stated "Some players angry they wasted their money who walked away, players angry, but who see the potential and want to play the game, and players who are angry and who only want to bitch, whine and moan." So you have no problem with the players that are "angry they wasted their money who walked away" - yet you seem fit to challenge players who in your words are "angry and who only want to bitch, whine and moan."

"Be as vocal as they like. So long as they blame those deserving of blame and not consumers who've spent their money."
Yes. you have spent your money but now you are attacking someone who is critical of the end product - what's it to you? Why are you rushing to the defence of those who are deserving of blame?

"Puerile" Seriously? Your defence of the indefensible? Your talk of "throwing their toys out of the pram" Puerile? lol

So you think it's ok for purchasers to be feel ripped off but keep it to themselves?


"No - as I've made clear, the OP voiced his opinion (which I did not say he shouldn't do) and I provided an alternate view. As said, if people want to rant about the situation that is fine. But don't insult people who have also spent good money (but who just try and make the best of things). Acolytes? Amish? Making totally false statements that anyone who is trying to remain positive sees no problem in what has gone before. All that nonsense is what I object to. And you've just added to it."

Provide an alternate view by all means - no-one is unaccepting of that - but when you start attacking the opp for being "in your view" "Thank-you for more facile comments - you kind of specialise in them don't you. Although on reflection they are more dumb than facile." you don't get that you seem like a sycophant?? Again why are you defending the indefensible??






(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 30
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