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RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/30/2017 3:19:13 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred


You dog! Holding back! Well, one of the joys of this game is finding out something new the old fashioned way - observation, trial and error.

Of course, a fair bit of the time I think I rediscover things I previously knew and forgot...but the excitement it generates is just as good as discovering it for the first time, although to be honest sometimes it is simply a face-palm moment.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 11/30/2017 3:20:23 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 31
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/30/2017 4:15:46 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred


You dog! Holding back! Well, one of the joys of this game is finding out something new the old fashioned way - observation, trial and error.

Of course, a fair bit of the time I think I rediscover things I previously knew and forgot...but the excitement it generates is just as good as discovering it for the first time, although to be honest sometimes it is simply a face-palm moment.

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!






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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 32
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 12/6/2017 8:13:31 AM   
JoV

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		Just by way of closure, I moved the 65th to Clark Field, and then shipped them back to Takao. They still refuse to recover, despite having the run of the place on Formosa (lots of supply, ground support etc).

I have long since decided that these guys will spend the rest of the war garrisoning some god forbidden south pacific island. They have nobody to blame but themselves


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 33
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 12/6/2017 1:22:41 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!










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Post #: 34
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 12/6/2017 1:23:12 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!
















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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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Post #: 35
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 12/6/2017 3:09:59 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

Just by way of closure, I moved the 65th to Clark Field, and then shipped them back to Takao. They still refuse to recover, despite having the run of the place on Formosa (lots of supply, ground support etc).

I have long since decided that these guys will spend the rest of the war garrisoning some god forbidden south pacific island. They have nobody to blame but themselves



I have had similar issues with trying to get a Marine Regiment (6th IIRC) to fill out, first at San Diego and then at San Francisco. Lots of supply, lots of devices in the pools, leader with Admin skills in the 60s. There is enough support at the base and West Coast Command is in range. There were other units also drawing replacements, but not Marine squads - just the one Marine Regiment. It would never draw more than one Marine squad at a time, but there were enough in the pool to fill out the unit.
I decided that either other units on the map drawing from the pool caused it to reach its limit for issue of Marine Squads on the turn or the index number of the Marine Regiment is higher than all the other units and the AI just never gets to it while doing all the other replacements. Other Marine Regiments that arrived at San Diego many weeks later filled out quickly.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to JoV)
Post #: 36
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/26/2018 3:55:48 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Thread resurrection.

65th Bde cannot undisable squads - 48th Div can undisable squads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.

Alfred


This is the 65th Bde. It's just reached Clark Field and will be set into rest mode



And the 48th ID, which has been in bombardment mode for about a week now.






I have had similar problems lately like the OP. Some units just won't undisable their squads no matter what you do (leaders, 20k supplies, rest, dividing to ABC, HQs with tons of free support, big base etc.) I have finally found the solution, and, well, I feel stupid.

The answer is in front of you. Just look at the above screenshot. It's all there, right under your very nose!

The only reason the 48th Div is undisabling is that it uses additional support from an HQ. Thus, its "Support required" number is shown in GREEN colour.

65th Bde cannot undisable because it uses its own organic support squads to undisable itself. Thus, its "Support required" is in WHITE. The unit does so because it has surplus support (240 support squads supporting 204 other devices).

Even if you put 65th Bde in an empty base with 20k supplies, and five HQs with 100 support squads each, the unit will NOT UNDISABLE, because the code will not assign any HQ to heal the 65th Bde.


It is a quirk of the code, and can sometimes happen when a unit is damaged in combat, and emerges from combat with more support squads active than non-support squads (65the Bde) or can be set so by a designer in a scenario (think 74th Corps in Changsha in scen 1 and 100). The problem is, the organic support squad are totally inefficient in undisabling devices from its own unit. Sometimes it is 1-3 devices per turn, and the next turn 1 device may get disabled. In case of 65th Bde, its organic support has yet to undisable 37 infantry sqauds, before support squads from HQ can help with undisabling the remaining 60 squads.

How can you heal the likes of 65th Bde.

1) park your unit somehwere hoping the organic support will some day undisable the unit completely

2) grow your unit, until the number of non-squad devices outruns unit's organic support, and the "support required" field will be displayed in RED, initiating unit's genuine request for support squads from an HQ

3) if the above is not feasible (since unit cannot take any new replacements as it already reached full TOE), accept that a part of the unit is disabled almost permanently, and use the unit in battle, hoping that the disabled squads will be killed in battle, making room for new replacements, which will outgrow the organic support numbers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Why the dev (BigJ62) is both right and wrong about undisablements when he says:

"1. friendly base with greater than 2x supply helps and having excess support at that base plus any corps HQ in range with a leader with high admin helps.
2. unit with 1x+ supply helps
3. rest mode really helps
4. unit with high exp helps
5. no enemy in hex helps
6. temperate hex really helps
None of these are manditory but they help.



A HQ cannot help if:

-the disabled unit uses its own organic support to heal disablements.

-the number of support squads in HQ is smaller then the number of support squad requested by a unit that does not use surplus organic support. If the unit requests 71 support squads, and the HQ brings 70 squads, the healing by HQ does not happen. It works the same way like LI/HI and res/fuel work - it is all or nothing.

EDIT TWO:How to test the whole premise:

Test 1:
-start scen 1 or 100 as Allies
-go to Changsha
-walk out the 10th Corps out of Changsha
-set 74th corps (WHITE-supported) to rest and test for five turns

Test 2
-start scen 1 or 100 as Allies
-go to Changsha
-walk out the 74th Corps out of Changsha
-set 10th Corps (GREEN-supported) to rest and test for five turns


Compare and laugh. Blame the manual, forum myths, whatever.


< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/26/2018 4:29:43 PM >

(in reply to JoV)
Post #: 37
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/26/2018 10:43:38 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Yaab, very interesting. You are a constant source of new things to notice about the game, kudos and thanks!

A more rigorous testing is needed, and I have just the suitable tools (specific custom made scenario, where I tested recovery speeds). Will get to it soon and post here

Can green support be achieved by loading some of the unit support squads on ships? Or maybe the other way around. That mechanized support devices often tend to be left in port, even when TF screen promised adequate space for the load. Would look kinda stupid to leave "support cadres" behind in the name of faster recovery :) but if it works...

Also, if you load the unit on a lot of ships, loadouts are far from uniform, and you can group and take away ships with support squads.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 11/26/2018 10:45:22 PM >

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 38
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/27/2018 5:18:08 AM   
JoV

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		Interesting Look forward to seeing what you are able to demonstrate.

As for my lazy bloody 65th, after a long convalescence at Takao they moped up some of the smaller island and were then shipped to Truk, where they rebounded relatively well. I then moved them all down to Milne Bay. I once read Milne Bay has the highest rate of malaria anywhere in the world. Seemed an appropriate location for them to think about their poor performance for the next few years.


(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 39
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/27/2018 1:00:56 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Yaab, very interesting. You are a constant source of new things to notice about the game, kudos and thanks!

A more rigorous testing is needed, and I have just the suitable tools (specific custom made scenario, where I tested recovery speeds). Will get to it soon and post here

Can green support be achieved by loading some of the unit support squads on ships? Or maybe the other way around. That mechanized support devices often tend to be left in port, even when TF screen promised adequate space for the load. Would look kinda stupid to leave "support cadres" behind in the name of faster recovery :) but if it works...

Also, if you load the unit on a lot of ships, loadouts are far from uniform, and you can group and take away ships with support squads.


I guess it could work, but I have never paid attention to device loading order. In one of my restarts, I tried to move a chunk of Pacfic Command HQ by a small xAP in Pearl Harbor. The HQ consists only of Naval Support and support squads. The only thing that got loaded on the xAP in Amphib mode were support squasds only. So yes, in theory your ship method could work, but others need to chime in and confirm the method's feasibility.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/27/2018 1:18:00 PM >

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 40
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/27/2018 5:35:35 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

Interesting Look forward to seeing what you are able to demonstrate.

As for my lazy bloody 65th, after a long convalescence at Takao they moped up some of the smaller island and were then shipped to Truk, where they rebounded relatively well. I then moved them all down to Milne Bay. I once read Milne Bay has the highest rate of malaria anywhere in the world. Seemed an appropriate location for them to think about their poor performance for the next few years.





Actually, come to think of it, your unit didnt need healing. If you go with manual which says that support required represents your unit need to perform at full efficiency, the 65th was 100% efficient. Its 204 non-squads devices (the ones that assault or fire) enjoyed 240 support squads. Thus, the unit was 100% efficient at 70% TOE instead of the standard 70% efficient at 100% TOE.

(in reply to JoV)
Post #: 41
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/27/2018 6:31:03 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Actually, come to think of it, your unit didnt need healing. If you go with manual which says that support required represents your unit need to perform at full efficiency, the 65th was 100% efficient. Its 204 non-squads devices (the ones that assault or fire) enjoyed 240 support squads. Thus, the unit was 100% efficient at 70% TOE instead of the standard 70% efficient at 100% TOE.

It is unclear what this "efficient" means in the manual. It certainly is not combat strength. I tested LCUs with zero support and they fight just fine. Support matters during recovery

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 42
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/27/2018 6:40:14 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Interesting. I guess you could do a test in which the same unit only has 100 assault squads and 70 support squads, and a copy of this unit which has 100 assault squads and 0 support squads, and see if you can achieve similar assault values.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 43
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/29/2018 5:24:16 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
The only reason the 48th Div is undisabling is that it uses additional support from an HQ. Thus, its "Support required" number is shown in GREEN colour.

65th Bde cannot undisable because it uses its own organic support squads to undisable itself. Thus, its "Support required" is in WHITE. The unit does so because it has surplus support (240 support squads supporting 204 other devices).

Even if you put 65th Bde in an empty base with 20k supplies, and five HQs with 100 support squads each, the unit will NOT UNDISABLE, because the code will not assign any HQ to heal the 65th Bde.

It is a quirk of the code, and can sometimes happen when a unit is damaged in combat, and emerges from combat with more support squads active than non-support squads (65the Bde) or can be set so by a designer in a scenario (think 74th Corps in Changsha in scen 1 and 100). The problem is, the organic support squad are totally inefficient in undisabling devices from its own unit. Sometimes it is 1-3 devices per turn, and the next turn 1 device may get disabled. In case of 65th Bde, its organic support has yet to undisable 37 infantry sqauds, before support squads from HQ can help with undisabling the remaining 60 squads.


Sorry, no cigar. I ran the tests, and white/green does not matter for disablement recovery

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 44
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/29/2018 6:38:45 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Well, I cannot replicate your findings in-game in China. Maybe its low exp/morale thing? Thanks anyway.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 45
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/29/2018 6:52:27 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Well, I cannot replicate your findings in-game in China. Maybe its low exp/morale thing? Thanks anyway.

I ran 4 rounds of 12 turn R&R restarting the scenario for each new round, and in 2 of the rounds there was one ID that seemed stuck at low number of healed squads. Like 1-2 squads with others healing ~10 squads on average. It happens sometimes with random numbers. IDs were different, and of different types too.
How many rounds did you do in China?

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 46
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/29/2018 7:19:10 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Restarted the grand campaign three times, ran each restart for five turns. Focused solely on 74th and 10th Corps in Changsha.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 47
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 11/29/2018 7:56:48 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Why not look at all of the Chinese units, via Tracker? Yes, you'd have to save every turn, but... with Tracker's multi-turn read, you could load them all in at once.

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 48
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 12/1/2018 5:26:50 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Too many variables.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 49
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 7/7/2019 8:39:23 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Here it comes.

Two HQs in Changsha. Both have support in WHITE (since support squads don't require support, the Chinese HQs have always intrinsically more support than needed). Both HQs consist only of one device - support squads. They differ in two respects - thier experience and the ratio of active to disabled support devices.



First HQ, exp 30





Second HQ, exp 60



The first HQ is stuck in a limbo (undisable one device, than disable one device and so on) and only heals one squad. The second HQ fares better and heals five squads in the same time.



< Message edited by Yaab -- 7/7/2019 2:30:32 PM >

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Post #: 50
RE: Unit recovery from disablements - 7/7/2019 3:38:15 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Two HQs in Changsha. Both have support in WHITE (since support squads don't require support, the Chinese HQs have always intrinsically more support than needed). Both HQs consist only of one device - support squads. They differ in two respects - thier experience and the ratio of active to disabled support devices.

The first HQ is stuck in a limbo (undisable one device, than disable one device and so on) and only heals one squad. The second HQ fares better and heals five squads in the same time.

2 observations doesn't matter squat. The human brain is programmed to seek out dependencies, and random numbers are a trusted source of those fluke ones. Only proper statistics can tell. Means lots of turns in a controlled environment -> forget GC, use special cleaned up scenario

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 51
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