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RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 4:59:03 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Accessing if one side (and by what magnitude) had the advantage was one of the side-benefit for doing all this.


Already done, if you take a look at the belonging discussions.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 31
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 5:12:14 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

Accessing if one side (and by what magnitude) had the advantage was one of the side-benefit for doing all this.


Already done, if you take a look at the belonging discussions.


Yepp... Allied slanted that is the general consensus but without empirical data to back it (ex: recorded win-loss record taking into account player skill level). With the recent change we don't have much info in how the new sub rule and additional UK ressource impacts this. You know data collection, experimental design, science etc.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 2/20/2018 5:16:38 PM >

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 32
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 5:41:53 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		very interesting

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 2/20/2018 5:48:55 PM >

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 33
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 8:44:19 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Empirical data? Here are some: Sugar 55 : Rest of the world 0. Took over 15 months to play it out, 38 of the victories were on Axis side. I played mirror-games with the best of the rest (Gronivaure p.e.) and won them all, more easily on Axis` side.

Sadly many very good players refuse to PbEM any longer, because of the unbalancing. A tournament means to find out the best players, but only if the chances are fair, otherwise it`s still a guessing.

If the best players determine the balancing to be fair, I`d believe them, as I did in Breakthrough SoE or AoD.

Obviously I'm the best player still active. Believe me, or prove me wrong with those Allies.

< Message edited by Sugar -- 2/20/2018 8:45:54 PM >

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 34
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 9:22:24 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Empirical data? Here are some: Sugar 55 : Rest of the world 0. Took over 15 months to play it out, 38 of the victories were on Axis side. I played mirror-games with the best of the rest (Gronivaure p.e.) and won them all, more easily on Axis` side.

Sadly many very good players refuse to PbEM any longer, because of the unbalancing. A tournament means to find out the best players, but only if the chances are fair, otherwise it`s still a guessing.

If the best players determine the balancing to be fair, I`d believe them, as I did in Breakthrough SoE or AoD.

Obviously I'm the best player still active. Believe me, or prove me wrong with those Allies.


Those stats means diddly dick if we don't know what patch and the level of player at play (aka tons of wins as allies vs scrubs wouldn't mean the game is balanced). Also means most those games are irrelevant because they are too dated since there were conducted under an obsolete version of the game.

I'm not sure what's to prove in regards to the Axis slant? This has been my impression also. The jury is still out on how much is required to balance the two sides. Hubert and Bill are thinking the equilibrium is closer than the forum consensus as the boost to the allies have been quite modest (even tossing the axis a bone with the ASW fix). They probably have some win-loss stats from pbem servers to support their assumption. I wouldn't be surprised that at lower rung player find it easier to win as allies and between experienced player its easier to win as axis. That's the type of hypothesis a little tourney would help confirm or infirm.

As for being the best player active, you'd have to face me in the tourney. hahahaha! C'mon sugar, I'm waiting on the first level of the pyramid. Win one match to earn the rights to face me.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 35
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 11:06:18 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

They probably have some win-loss stats from pbem servers to support their assumption.


No, they don`t, the result is completely random. I complained several times, but the issue is still not fixed.

I refuse to take part in this tournament at this stage (I simply don`t like playing the Allies, mostly because of the naval combat and micromanaging their fleet), at least there are only 2 players participating.

Prove me wrong, or leave it.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 36
RE: Tournament - 2/20/2018 11:18:57 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

They probably have some win-loss stats from pbem servers to support their assumption.


No, they don`t, the result is completely random. I complained several times, but the issue is still not fixed.

I refuse to take part in this tournament at this stage (I simply don`t like playing the Allies, mostly because of the naval combat and micromanaging their fleet), at least there are only 2 players participating.

Prove me wrong, or leave it.


I can say with certainty that any point you were trying to make was completely lost in translation.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 37
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 7:25:00 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		The results shown in the challenge log aren`t related to those on the battleground, especially if your opponent is giving up, but even after achieving a DV the notification could be wrong.

Prove me wrong, or leave it.



< Message edited by Sugar -- 2/21/2018 7:27:07 AM >

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 38
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 7:25:10 AM   
BPINisBACK


Posts: 282
Joined: 10/30/2016
Status: offline 		I can join the Tournament. No matter with side.
But let me focus on the game. All the stuff around the tournament must be manage by my opponent.
If anyone wants to play, i'm on.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 39
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 8:52:02 AM   
BPINisBACK


Posts: 282
Joined: 10/30/2016
Status: offline 		Sugar is going on the way to get his 56 victory. He has challenged me!
I never play this vanilla version... I fact i think the last one i played was... 1.09??
But, it will be fun anyway!
Letsss go!

(in reply to BPINisBACK)
Post #: 40
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 9:43:16 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

The results shown in the challenge log aren`t related to those on the battleground, especially if your opponent is giving up, but even after achieving a DV the notification could be wrong.

Prove me wrong, or leave it.




I did see you mention something in december about it in the tech support secion. Hubert also replied that it was due to something the latest patch had introduced and it would be fixed with the next patch (I think that would have been patch 1.11). He didn't say it would retroactively fix things but my one match that had the wrong winner listed was removed this week from the completed game list, so maybe that was a attempt to purge the game that were wrongly recorded.

A ''champion'' that says 'I don't want to play allies, there's too much ships' sound like a guy that padded his stats challenging scrubs playing the same Axis cookie cutter BS over and over again. I mean, if you're the best of the best wouldn't you want to purposefully take the weaker side to have a more fun challenge? I guess you wouldn't if you're a coward or a paper champ. Just saying...

BPINisBack says you challenged him to a tourney game. Good! Glad to have you two gentleman join. The more the merrier...


(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 41
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 10:00:06 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Didn`t you mention it`s all about fun? It´s not so much fun playing Allies to me, so why should I? I'm neither the champion, nor the best (I lost several of my more than 150 PbEMs in Breakthrough), but still unbeaten in SC3. And by the way, if you do some calculation, 17 DVs on Allies side are not exactly
quote:

sounding like a guy that padded his stats challenging scrubs playing the same Axis cookie cutter BS over and over again.
, don`t you think?

This tournament is useless, because of it`s unbalancing. Prove me wrong, or leave it.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 42
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 10:23:45 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Didn`t you mention it`s all about fun? It´s not so much fun playing Allies to me, so why should I? I'm neither the champion, nor the best (I lost several of my more than 150 PbEMs in Breakthrough), but still unbeaten in SC3. And by the way, if you do some calculation, 17 DVs on Allies side are not exactly
quote:

sounding like a guy that padded his stats challenging scrubs playing the same Axis cookie cutter BS over and over again.
, don`t you think?

This tournament is useless, because of it`s unbalancing. Prove me wrong, or leave it.


Easy.

quote:

I`d like to see a tournament, but in order to judge about balancing; therefore I`d prefer the 39 scenario.


I'll give you three guesses on who said the previous statement.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 43
RE: Tournament - 2/21/2018 3:58:24 PM   
LLv34Mika


Posts: 350
Joined: 12/29/2017
Status: offline 		Maybe the Axis side is stronger but the Allies are much more fun to play. For me!
Why? As Axis you have your plan. Be fast. Defeat France, go for Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Cairo as soon as possible and then use concentrated air attacks on London until you can use your paratroopers to win the game. Victory.

It's not so easy as it sounds. At least for me. But the way is clear.
But as allies? You are defending. You can only win time here and there. Should you distract your opponent or are the units lost in such an attempt not worth the time you gain? Where will you land? France? Norway? Casablanca/Algier or Egypt? Or go all the way from Iraq west? Will the Russians hold out long enough?

There is more to do and more to decide if you ask me. If the game is balanced or not is not sooooooo important to me. Think about chess. White is the side with the big advantage. Usually most good players win their games with the white figures and just go for a draw with the black ones. Same with SC3.

Still thinking about the tournament that could also mean that you, Sugar, are winning with the Axis (99% sure) but will still with the Allies much more than many others. That still makes you No 1 in the long run. And as soon as enough players joined that ladder system there is still the possibility to do a mirror game or a revenge after one side lost. So if you can win the game with the Axis side by June 43 your opponent has to be faster. That's it.

We are by far not enough players in this tournament right now but if there are 10 the top 3 or 5 could use this method (two games for a challenge instead of one).

I just want to have some competitive action here. I don't care if I'm no 3, 18 or 99 in that ladder. I just want some nice guys around to battle and have fun with that game. And of course noone should feel "forced" to play just to keep the rank.

Already looking forward to my next game... have just one going and I guess that is already won. My allies are producing ~1800MPPs by sept/oct 1942, Egypt to Benghazi is all mine and Leningrad and Stalingrad are still in Russian hands. Looks good so far.

_____________________________

"Oderint, dum metuant."

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 44
RE: Tournament - 2/24/2018 7:18:16 PM   
IrishGuards


Posts: 542
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		Lets git ta the Kiltin .. !!
IG

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 45
RE: Tournament - 2/26/2018 10:41:01 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		I've added the names of the people who recently notified an interest in participating to the tourney pyramid thread.

(in reply to IrishGuards)
Post #: 46
RE: Tournament - 2/28/2018 7:47:32 AM   
BPINisBACK


Posts: 282
Joined: 10/30/2016
Status: offline 		Just a few notes about my game with Sugar.

France surrendered at the beggining of July, 1940 (I think it's cool for me).
Spain is 77% pro axis.
Raiding campaing at Atlantic has been quite soft (i'm surprised).
Africa is quite calm (Now it's January, 1941). I guess that Sugar is waiting for Rommel. No combats at all until now.
Sugar has played very cautiously. I'm surprised of this too.
My main mistake untill now (i mean: "a clear mistake") is that i left my british vessels at the ports of Malta. As Sugar has bombed and conquered the Island i lost both vessels.

I am very curious about the future movements of Sugar. Of course, the opening turn in Barbarrossa will be extremely lethal... but i'm sure that Sugar has much more plans.

Greetings!

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 47
RE: Tournament - 2/28/2018 10:00:59 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		So is it a tourney game or not? Sugar can you confirm? You didn't seem too enthused so don't want to pen you in against your will.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 2/28/2018 10:07:19 AM >

(in reply to BPINisBACK)
Post #: 48
RE: Tournament - 3/1/2018 8:42:27 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		If BPINisBACK forces me to play the Allies, I`ll certainly do, in that case you may count those matches as part of the tournament.

Just to remember: I`m not against a tournament, the opposite is true. I'm against waiting for the tournament to judge over the balancing; this would be redundant. Currently PvtBenjamin, who took my personal challenge, surrendered in mid 41 after the fall of El Alamein, Casablanca and Axis` gains in Russia.

The changes in V 1.12 are worth estimately 200 MPP and a fighter 1 turn earlier ready for action for the Brits; this may help in case of a Seelöwe, but not very much in total, if anything at all.

I guess I've done enough of testing, this game - allthough already much better than anything else - still needs significant improvements. Anyone who doesn`t believe me is invited to beat me and my Axis. 57.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 49
RE: Tournament - 3/1/2018 8:48:34 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		You did not answer my question. You are playing with BPINisBACK right now, and he seems under the impression (correctly or not) that he is playing a tourney game with you. Do you want to be part of the tourney or not? If not, obviously I can't count your game with BPINisBACK as one and I won't add you to the active player list.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 50
RE: Tournament - 3/1/2018 9:33:35 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Ask BPINisBACK, if he wants to participate, I'm following his decision.

Anyone who doesn`t believe me is invited to beat me and my Axis. 57.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 51
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 12:03:28 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		I'll pen you in the tourney for the current game you and BPINisback are conducting. But remember, going forward that means that if some dude from one level lower in the pyramid challenge you as the axis, you can't squirm away because you don't like playing allies.

Is there anyone on the forum that think the allies have the edge? I'm not sure who you're arguing with about that Sugar.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 52
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 10:36:15 AM   
BPINisBACK


Posts: 282
Joined: 10/30/2016
Status: offline 		I wont force anyone yo play any side.
I just say: i wont surrender my game easily.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 53
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 11:10:39 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Ahh, now it's getting clearer: we won't have to play both sides for the tournament? Theoretically one could win the tournament just playing 1 side? That`s complete nonsense, but meeh.

(in reply to BPINisBACK)
Post #: 54
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 11:38:47 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Ahh, now it's getting clearer: we won't have to play both sides for the tournament? Theoretically one could win the tournament just playing 1 side? That`s complete nonsense, but meeh.


Nah that's not it. It's less a tournament than an ongoing pyramid ladder. I haven't thought about it that far I guess we could have it rebooted yearly and have an annual winner.

One could ascend challenging people playing as Axis (since challenger picks side) but you're bound at some point to have to defend your spot on the pyramid from a challenger who will wish to play Axis themselves. Under all likelihood in time player will get to play both sides.



(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 55
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 6:16:18 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		And if I'd wait on the first stage for other players to step up, I could challenge them 1 after another, thereby determining my favorite side?

Dunno how the tournaments in AoD worked, but Amadeus should remember. I've got a link from the last tournament in 2013, but it doesn`t work anymore. If our Amadeus is the same person, he probably could help: http://www.panzerliga.de/dt/docs/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=3346

By the way, it could be helpfull to notice not only the winning person, but also the winning side, if you want some "empirical data" about the balancing.

< Message edited by Sugar -- 3/2/2018 6:21:40 PM >

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 56
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 6:34:04 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

And if I'd wait on the first stage for other players to step up, I could challenge them 1 after another, thereby determining my favorite side?

Dunno how the tournaments in AoD worked, but Amadeus should remember. I've got a link from the last tournament in 2013, but it doesn`t work anymore. If our Amadeus is the same person, he probably could help: http://www.panzerliga.de/dt/docs/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=3346

By the way, it could be helpfull to notice not only the winning person, but also the winning side, if you want some "empirical data" about the balancing.


Late joiner or not, you would still be bound to get challenged back at some point. I've said it before, it's an ongoing ranking.

Check it out, in the in the pyramid thread in the first post at the top, I already been compiling all game with the player and sides (in brackets). Only one game complete so far though.

Geeze Sugar, you might display idiot savant wizardry in SC3 but it seems your brain gets quite a bit scrambled handling (any) other tasks.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 57
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 8:00:35 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Hopefully you`re not going to confuse yourself.

Is there an overview of ongoing games? Is there an overwiew of challengers still looking for an opponent? Why should players be limited to just 1 ongoing match, and how long would it take to end the tournament this way? How does it end at all?

Maybe 2 closed threats could be helpfull with those overviews, any new player has to account by mailing you?

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 58
RE: Tournament - 3/2/2018 8:53:49 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		-If the game is listed but there's no winner flagged, it means it's ongoing.
-Active player are listed in the pyramid.
-People are going to be shouting out in the thread if they are looking for people to duke it out (that has already started) or PM an active player to check availability.
-Water is wet

That last one is in case you ask.

There's no rush. 'Tourney Pyramid' ends when player interest ain't there anymore or if there's nobody to do the admin work to keep it going. Which ever comes first.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 59
RE: Tournament - 3/6/2018 7:13:42 AM   
BPINisBACK


Posts: 282
Joined: 10/30/2016
Status: offline 		Quick update about my game with Sugar
January, 1942
Sugar keep going on. Quite "slowly" but with steadiness.
Main hits for Sugar:
- Egypt conquered.
- Spain is axis.
- Vichy France conquered.
- Germany takes about 1.200MPP per turn (i think).
- Germany has 150 units, more or less.
Main hits for me:
- I survive? :)
- The three main Russian cities are still in soviet hands. Only Smolenks and Kiev has fallen.
- Convoy lines are free (i fact, Sugar didn't attack them).
- US join allies in September, 1941, which is quite good.
- Soviets get aroun 850MPP per turn. It has over 60 units.

Then,in Russia Leningrad is quite threat, Moscow and Stalingrad are still "safe" but it depends on Sugar movements. Our engineers are building up fortifications around these cities.

1942 will be a painfull year for allies. If i can hold any of the three soviet cities and my western allies made any good movement i can have any hope... But, this is the same in all the games.

I will tell you in 1943...

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 60
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