Can the AI be gamey?

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Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 12:18:05 AM

Rogue187

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I was thinking about a couple of my recent posts and it occured to me today that the AI seems to be making some gamey moves. For example, a lone destroyer attacked my group at Midway that was off loading a base force causing the TF to fallback, but i just put it back the next day. Then the AI attacked Port Morseby, but not in strength. In fact, the landing force is just sitting there.

The action of the destroyer seems really gamey to me. Its something a player would do just to mess with someone, but not something that would happen in real life. The same seems true of Port Morseby. Drop some troops to make me panic, but not do anything to actually change the balance of power. It has left me scratching my head and wondering just how good the AI actally is.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 12:28:26 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

I was thinking about a couple of my recent posts and it occured to me today that the AI seems to be making some gamey moves. For example, a lone destroyer attacked my group at Midway that was off loading a base force causing the TF to fallback, but i just put it back the next day. Then the AI attacked Port Morseby, but not in strength. In fact, the landing force is just sitting there.

The action of the destroyer seems really gamey to me. Its something a player would do just to mess with someone, but not something that would happen in real life. The same seems true of Port Morseby. Drop some troops to make me panic, but not do anything to actually change the balance of power. It has left me scratching my head and wondering just how good the AI actally is.

The AI cheats like a mother-******. Always has. Always will. It runs on scripts but, depending somewhat on your realism settings, doesn't always feel compelled to follow rules involving supply outages for LCUs, will magically teleport ships around the globe to meet mission demands, has a liberal use of torpedo HQ elements for TBs, etc. etc.

With regards to your specific example, I don't think that's gamey at all. IRL the Japanese tasked two DDs from the home islands to bombard Midway island in the first days of the war-as nothing other than a noisemaker / distraction. The Japanese also had singleton raider ships plying elsewhere in the Pacific, especially in the early war-generally causing concern and nuisance raiding.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 1:09:37 AM

geofflambert

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Could Napoleon be gamey? Of Corsican.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 1:11:31 AM

Lowpe

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Is the Pope Catholic?

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 1:18:25 AM

BBfanboy

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To be a little kinder in describing the AI:

- everything the computer does is driven by the chosen script. If that DD raided Midway after the first day or so of the game, it was following a raiding script. The script writers threw these events in to keep the Allied player honest in protecting his assets that are away from the front lines.

- because the script writer cannot predict how any game will unfold (Allied moves are up to you, and damaged ships take an unknown amount of time to repair), the forces available to carry out scripts may be out of position or even involved in other operations. To get around this, the script writers allow the computer to take whatever ships it can find available from wherever they are and assemble them into a TF for the script. It will place them on the map somewhere near the objective, but I think they leave at least a turn's travel to objective so the Allied player has a chance to detect them and respond.

- AFAIK, the supply situation is based on the setting you have for the game. Hard give the Japanese a little bit of supply each turn in every location. Very Hard presumably gives even more supply and Ironman may provide loads of supply. This makes sense too because if the script writer set up supply convoys to travel from A to B and supply his outposts, it would be easy to find their route and wipe them out early in the game.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 2:11:21 AM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Could Napoleon be gamey? Of Corsican.

I would say that is inhumane, but coming from a Gorn ...

On topic, IMHO there is nothing wrong in principle with a small raider or disruptor force, even a single DD. Depending on the circumstances I believe that either side would have used such a tactic, though I admit that some players disagree and some even have a house rule forbidding it.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 2:18:28 AM

PaxMondo

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There are certain things that the AI will do to enable it to work. They have been well documented. PBEM players are notorious about stating it cheats. Players who play the AI refer to it as the AI.

I have been playing the AI for 10 years now. I cheat* all the time, it never does.

* I have to load up head to head to help it periodically to get it through rough patches and make sure that it is making good strategic decisions. I also make use of my mod ability to replenish AC and device pools (stealing from the european buildup).

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/20/2017 2:22:28 AM >

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 7:56:40 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Could Napoleon be gamey? Of Corsican.

I would say that is inhumane, but coming from a Gorn ...

On topic, IMHO there is nothing wrong in principle with a small raider or disruptor force, even a single DD. Depending on the circumstances I believe that either side would have used such a tactic, though I admit that some players disagree and some even have a house rule forbidding it.

I prefer photon torpedoes to disruptors.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 8:38:47 AM

RichardAckermann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I prefer photon torpedoes to disruptors.

Hey, aren't you Gorn using just plasma F/G/S/R launchers for heavy weapons ?

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 8:56:58 AM

Leandros

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It's called diversion...

...

Fred

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/20/2017 11:44:46 AM

Yaab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Could Napoleon be gamey? Of Corsican.

Had to read it thrice to get the meaning.

Touche!

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 12/21/2017 4:19:26 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Could Napoleon be gamey? Of Corsican.

That's just bad.

As for the AI 'teleporting' vessels. It can only take them from those that are in port. For example, if Saratoga is in port in San Diego she can be put into a TF at Suva.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 12:34:33 PM

AFBTD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

I was thinking about a couple of my recent posts and it occured to me today that the AI seems to be making some gamey moves. For example, a lone destroyer attacked my group at Midway that was off loading a base force causing the TF to fallback, but i just put it back the next day. Then the AI attacked Port Morseby, but not in strength. In fact, the landing force is just sitting there.

The action of the destroyer seems really gamey to me. Its something a player would do just to mess with someone, but not something that would happen in real life. The same seems true of Port Morseby. Drop some troops to make me panic, but not do anything to actually change the balance of power. It has left me scratching my head and wondering just how good the AI actally is.

must be the name avatar but who cares, what did you think what happend in your next move against the ai, may happend to you

try with a PBME better with a human,, is easy

< Message edited by AFBTD -- 7/2/2018 12:39:43 PM >

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 2:00:45 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

There are certain things that the AI will do to enable it to work. They have been well documented. PBEM players are notorious about stating it cheats. Players who play the AI refer to it as the AI.

I have been playing the AI for 10 years now. I cheat* all the time, it never does.

* I have to load up head to head to help it periodically to get it through rough patches and make sure that it is making good strategic decisions. I also make use of my mod ability to replenish AC and device pools (stealing from the european buildup).

+1

I don't load head to head to help the AI ( I don't want the free intel I can't unlearn on the whereabouts of units that are hidden to me).

I do re-run turns to mitigate AI disasters.

One down side of playing the AI that really can't be called cheating is that it knows all and sees all.

Nothing is hidden from the AI. It doesn't have to recon randomly to find LCUs moving in Jungle terrain 800 miles from the nearest enemy LCU that could spot it.

It automatically knows that you put that LCU you thought was hidden from view in move mode and WILL bomb it the turn after you put it in move mode.

The AI KNOWS the LCU is there. It KNOWS you put it in move mode, A live opponent would NEVER even know that LCU existed, but the AI is all over it as soon as it enters move mode.

Is this an annoyance? Yes it is. Is it a game breaker that will prevent me from playing the AI? Absolutely not.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 7/2/2018 2:01:27 PM >

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 2:52:46 PM

Lovejoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Is the Pope Catholic?

Is the the Space Pope reptilian?

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 4:06:16 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Is the Pope Catholic?

Is the the Space Pope reptilian?

And if so, does he have Easter egg hunts?

(in reply to Lovejoy)

Post #: 16

RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 4:17:10 PM

Uncivil Engineer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

There are certain things that the AI will do to enable it to work. They have been well documented. PBEM players are notorious about stating it cheats. Players who play the AI refer to it as the AI.

I have been playing the AI for 10 years now. I cheat* all the time, it never does.

* I have to load up head to head to help it periodically to get it through rough patches and make sure that it is making good strategic decisions. I also make use of my mod ability to replenish AC and device pools (stealing from the european buildup).

+1

I don't load head to head to help the AI ( I don't want the free intel I can't unlearn on the whereabouts of units that are hidden to me).

I do re-run turns to mitigate AI disasters.

One down side of playing the AI that really can't be called cheating is that it knows all and sees all.

Nothing is hidden from the AI. It doesn't have to recon randomly to find LCUs moving in Jungle terrain 800 miles from the nearest enemy LCU that could spot it.

It automatically knows that you put that LCU you thought was hidden from view in move mode and WILL bomb it the turn after you put it in move mode.

The AI KNOWS the LCU is there. It KNOWS you put it in move mode, A live opponent would NEVER even know that LCU existed, but the AI is all over it as soon as it enters move mode.

Is this an annoyance? Yes it is. Is it a game breaker that will prevent me from playing the AI? Absolutely not.

+2

I'm currently playing as Japan against the AI using 2-day turns. Well, I'm playing 2-day turns; the AI is playing 1-day turns.

And as for teleporting - a CV TF consisting of Yorktown, Lexington, and Saratoga recently appeared in my rear, nowhere near an Allied base. I got some very lucky die rolls and sank all three for the cost of Zuiho, and some damage to Ryujo and Shoho. Allied airstrikes suffered no coordination problems even though in late 1942 all 3 CV's were in the single TF.

A week later, the TF of Enterprise, Wasp, and Hornet appeared. I lost Akagi and Kaga for 2 of theirs (not yet confirmed, but the Allied aircraft ops losses were at least 2 carriers worth, since they had no bases to divert to.)

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 7:32:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

And as for teleporting - a CV TF consisting of Yorktown, Lexington, and Saratoga recently appeared in my rear, nowhere near an Allied base. I got some very lucky die rolls and sank all three for the cost of Zuiho, and some damage to Ryujo and Shoho. Allied airstrikes suffered no coordination problems even though in late 1942 all 3 CV's were in the single TF.

A week later, the TF of Enterprise, Wasp, and Hornet appeared. I lost Akagi and Kaga for 2 of theirs (not yet confirmed, but the Allied aircraft ops losses were at least 2 carriers worth, since they had no bases to divert to.)

I think that's a stellar example for the purposes of the OP question.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/2/2018 9:56:44 PM

Lovejoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Is the Pope Catholic?

Is the the Space Pope reptilian?

And if so, does he have Easter egg hunts?

That's a good question. Perhaps a Gorn would know...

(in reply to Zorch)

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/3/2018 4:28:31 AM

BBfanboy

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The game can't "think" so i cannot devise devious dastardly deeds. I has its scripts to tell it what targets to attack or defend and when to start and stop the script. There are also some raiding scripts just to keep it interesting.

What some players appear to consider "gamey" has been explained as the necessity for the AI to be able to carry out its scripts even though the script writer had no way of knowing what the tactical or strategic situation would be after a few turns of play. SO, the AI was given the ability to "warp" ships out of port to where they are needed for the script. I presume that could be the case for some air units and LCUs as well.

To the player it is "gamey" because he cannot do the same, but it is just part of the bargain when you play the AI.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/3/2018 9:56:38 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The game can't "think" so i cannot devise devious dastardly deeds. I has its scripts to tell it what targets to attack or defend and when to start and stop the script. There are also some raiding scripts just to keep it interesting.

What some players appear to consider "gamey" has been explained as the necessity for the AI to be able to carry out its scripts even though the script writer had no way of knowing what the tactical or strategic situation would be after a few turns of play. SO, the AI was given the ability to "warp" ships out of port to where they are needed for the script. I presume that could be the case for some air units and LCUs as well.

To the player it is "gamey" because he cannot do the same, but it is just part of the bargain when you play the AI.

I think part of the 'gamey' commentary amongst newer players is the fact that they don't know that the AI will be-by definition-a gamey, cheating experience. They expect it to follow the same rules as another person, but it can't and it must lean on several code tricks to offer a decent overall game experience.

So, from the perspective of an expected human opponent, the AI cheats like a ******-******. But it *has to*. It's perfectly reasonable to be disappointed or surprised by this discovery. I know I was back in the day. But you can have a good game against the AI regardless.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/3/2018 4:13:39 PM

Lokasenna

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I've honestly not experienced the teleporting ships/units phenomenon when playing against the AI. Admittedly, I've only played about 1000 AI turns or thereabouts, but I really never noticed anything unrealistic about it. I steadily advanced as Japan, not leapfrogging - the Allied AI sent ships that (mostly) made sense and none appeared to teleport. I played almost to 1944 in that one.

I played for about 1.5 years of Allied turns and same thing.

I really only think the AI cheats in these ways when you've done something that "breaks" the scripts. And that's fine.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/3/2018 6:15:28 PM

rustysi

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quote:

I've honestly not experienced the teleporting ships

Absolutely have experienced this, and I really don't have a problem with it. The AI after all can't think and respond as may be done in a PBEM game.

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RE: Can the AI be gamey? - 7/8/2018 7:30:50 AM

Yaab

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The AI gamey? I would say it is stubborn like Cadorna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cadorna

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