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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ?

 
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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/4/2018 11:33:59 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		You guys seem to be missing my point. Ageod's AI is dynamic. It reacts to what you're doing. Long term planning doesn't matter since it evaluates it's situation on a turn by turn basis. In a lot ways that's the same exact way I play the game. I don't recruit new units unless I need them. I don't buy replacement points unless I need them. My moves for a turn are based on what's currently happening in the game. The turn by turn evaluation by the AI means that it's making decisions based on the current situation. Not something that may or may not happen 10 or 15 turns in the future. Sure some things could be improved with Ageod's AI but Athena is perfectly capable of giving you a good game even in longer campaigns and scenarios. A lot of times I don't even mess with the default settings.


(in reply to mkeogh76)
Post #: 31
RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/4/2018 1:02:35 PM   
mkeogh76

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans

You guys seem to be missing my point. Ageod's AI is dynamic. It reacts to what you're doing. Long term planning doesn't matter since it evaluates it's situation on a turn by turn basis. In a lot ways that's the same exact way I play the game. I don't recruit new units unless I need them. I don't buy replacement points unless I need them. My moves for a turn are based on what's currently happening in the game. The turn by turn evaluation by the AI means that it's making decisions based on the current situation. Not something that may or may not happen 10 or 15 turns in the future. Sure some things could be improved with Ageod's AI but Athena is perfectly capable of giving you a good game even in longer campaigns and scenarios. A lot of times I don't even mess with the default settings.




In my experience playing these games going back to the original Birth of America, I don't agree as to Athena holding-up as a competent opponent in the longer campaign scenarios and my current 1701 Spanish Succession campaign is once again bearing that out.

It's 1706 in my campaign and it's getting close to being over. Despite giving the AI boosts as to activation and detection and playing with handicaps such as the "player only" historical attrition option and a higher activation setting, I've already opened-up a 40-50 point NMP lead over the AI. It's not hard to figure-out why I'm easily winning- I set long-term goals for my campaign and set about taking some steps every single turn towards them. The AI simply can't compete when I'm able to methodically plan while it's doing everything on a turn-by-turn basis. I'm currently clobbering it, and it's only going to get worse. So, I'm getting close to shelving this campaign. It's been very similar to my experiences with my other Ageod games: a lot of fun in the early to mid game, but then degenerating into a tiresome, lopsided beatdown as my planning comes into fruition.

Long term planning matters a LOT in these games which I think is a huge part of their appeal. However, the AI's inability to be able to do so becomes a serious handicap in the longer scenarios. To me, Ageod's AI is just a convenient and always available opponent that handles the game's basic mechanics reasonably well, but that's all it really is. Don't require it to do too much and it's fairly decent, but it will struggle if taxed with too many options over too long of a time period.

Anyway, that's been my experience with these games, but you claim otherwise. I disagree, but that's where I'll leave it.

EDIT: It appears Ageod even recognizes the struggles of its AI over the long-term. I just got a message in my event log of my current campaign stating that my NMP has been lowered for game balance purposes with my being rewarded with additional VP and EP in exchange. It also appears that the AI's NMP got a boost. (It looks like I lost 5 NMP and the AI gained 5.) I suspect my having an NMP 50 points higher than the AI's may have triggered this balancing event. It's the first time I've seen this in an Ageod game which suggests that they are actively trying ways to prop up their AI in the long scenarios.

Also, I don't save-scum in Ageod games. In fact, even if I wanted to then Ageod's crazy save-game system works against the player trying to do that. Further, I don't think that I'm any great shakes as a player. If I took on an experienced PBEM player then I'd probably get my head handed to me, but my experience as a solo player of these games has repeatedly shown that the AI will not hold-up as a CHALLENGING opponent (rather than just an opponent) in a long-term scenario against any semi-competent player. (There are exceptions: playing the AJE's Cantabrian Wars scenario as the Romans can be extremely tough.)

< Message edited by mkeogh76 -- 2/4/2018 3:59:38 PM >

(in reply to tevans)
Post #: 32
RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/4/2018 2:10:33 PM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

You should really only play against other players in PBEM. The AI is for practising a new game.


Disagree. Many of us do not want to play MP and only play against the AI. The AI will give a good accounting of itself if you don’t cheat...as in reloading old turns to correct mistakes. Don’t get discouraged because one person said it’s not good. Of course it’s not as good as a human but it’s as good as any other
If

(in reply to Searry)
Post #: 33
RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/5/2018 3:59:47 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		mkeogh76...

My Ageod experience goes back just as far as yours with Birth of America. The AI is what is what it is. Once you've played the system enough in different games you're naturally going to know where the AI is weak and how to rack up point totals. As far as I know there aren't too many turn based strategy games with AI that can do long term planning 5, 10 or 15 turns ahead. How do chess programs do it? I would make a guess that even they evaluate the board on a turn by turn basis and move pieces based on that evaluation. I honestly don't think Ageod's AI is all that bad. I think it's more like a puzzle. The more games you play with the same AI under the same system -- different conflicts, same game system -- the easier it becomes to learn the weaknesses of the AI and exploit them. That doesn't make it a bad AI or an AI that can't give you a challenge. It just means you've figured out the limitations of the AI.

Sure there's always room for improvement where the AI is concerned but it's never going to get to the point where it can plan up to 15 moves ahead. It can't because it has no idea what you the player might do. It has to react to you and you end up reacting to it. You don't need long term planning to that. All you need to do is move your pieces to either cause a reaction from the AI or react to the AI. You need to recruit units based on what you're doing and buy replacements based on your losses. Decision cards are played the same way. That's the way I've been playing Ageod games since Birth of America and the AI presents a good challenge even in the longer campaigns. I'm pretty sure I have the AI 'puzzle' figured out by now and can easily run up huge VP totals if I chose to play that way.





< Message edited by tevans -- 2/5/2018 4:25:12 AM >

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 34
RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/5/2018 10:58:36 AM   
Johan Grip

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 2/4/2018
Status: offline 		I am presently getting a very decent showing from the AI, I treat it like a human opponent and dont make too bold moves.

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(in reply to tevans)
Post #: 35
RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/5/2018 2:08:08 PM   
mkeogh76

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		Edit

< Message edited by mkeogh76 -- 2/5/2018 2:33:23 PM >

(in reply to tevans)
Post #: 36
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