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[Logged] Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit exportation?

 
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[Logged] Modified unit attributes are now saved during ... - 3/21/2018 6:58:26 AM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline 		I just noticed this when I was editing some of my old units. I was about to test my modified SBR when I noticed that the unit templates that I had saved still had the modified attributes that I did on them. Before, when you're exporting units the default attributes are saved and you need to use the SBR in order to have the modified ones. Did I miss anything about this? I haven't touched SBR editing for some time (or read change logs since I just let Steam take care of updates).

Another thing that I noticed is that whatever units that I export on v1.14, the issue happens (no matter what DB3K build). However the units that I saved prior to v1.14 doesn't show this problem.

The following are included in the upload:
B473: Burke with an 155mm AGS, Ticonderoga with SM-3, SM-6 and RGM-84L load, F-15E with ALE-55 decoys and a Seawolf with an NSSN VPM VLS.
B472/B470/B467: Freedom-class CVN with a 64 cell VLS
US Subs v1 (exported almost a year ago [4/22] so way prior to v1.14): A unit of each active US sub.

Steam installation, v1.14 B998.7, DB3K473.
The issue also happens on my laptop (same install as above).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by apache85 -- 8/10/2020 12:18:15 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 3/28/2018 1:34:32 PM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline 		Well I found a quick workaround for this. Just have your scenario's database to be upgraded even if it's the latest one and enable "Force Deep-Rebuild" (important step). It would cause the units in your template to have the stuff to be reset. Then just add the SBR files again on your scenario and you're good to go again.

On a side note, I can't believe it took me this long to realize the (temporary) fix for it.

(in reply to Rain08)
Post #: 2
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/7/2020 8:25:15 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Logged (#14066).

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RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 4:29:13 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Just to be clear: What is the desired behavior ?

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RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 5:35:07 PM   
kritter

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline 		I like the modified units to be saved as they are modified. Once you spend all of the time modifying
them you can just load them.

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RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 5:46:05 PM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

Just to be clear: What is the desired behavior ?


Oh wow I almost forgot about this...

Anyways, the supposed behavior is that when you export a (group of) unit(s), the modified attributes should not carry over (like mounts/sensors). You would need the SBR for that if you want to apply the modified attributes for the exported units. So, let's say that you exported a Burke that has been modified to carry Harpoons. When you export that unit and then import it for a scenario, the Burke should not have the Harpoons. Basically, you should have the default attributes of a unit when exporting/importing them.

I don't know what update changed the behavior since it was a long time ago.

I imported one of the units (TESTFOR B473) in a blank scenario in CMO, using the latest DB (486) and the old one (473). The result is that the units carries the modified attributes, rather than the base one.

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RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 5:48:42 PM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kritter

I like the modified units to be saved as they are modified. Once you spend all of the time modifying
them you can just load them.


It can be nice, but sometimes it just gets in the way when you're using SBR.

< Message edited by Rain08 -- 8/15/2020 5:49:10 PM >

(in reply to kritter)
Post #: 7
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 6:26:07 PM   
kritter

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline 		You could always add a check box for the units to save modified or not. If you go to all the trouble to modify
the units saving them with the modifications is kind of logical, other wise it is just another step.

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Post #: 8
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 11:10:37 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		There are 2 ways that units get exported - SBR and INST files. And cloning of units also?
I think that they all share the same base structure/method for consistency.

I >think< at one stage, there were complaints that the INST file (and/or the clone) didn't have the 'modified' attributes.

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RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/15/2020 11:15:13 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The attachment contain INST files. These should be able to be imported as designed by the user; with all the bells and whistles that need to be added. You shouldn't need to run 'deltas' against them as base units, otherwise it would be harder to import sets of units as initially designed.

Or am I missing something?

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Post #: 10
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 12:05:51 AM   
kritter

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline 		The ability to save the unit as modified then reload it again makes like easier. The only reason now for running
a delta is to add back in comms which currently has to be done manually. It would be nice if it got added the
same way weapons and sensors were added.

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Post #: 11
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 12:54:53 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I think that SBR and INST are being discussed as if they are the same thing. Which they are not.
From memory, the SBR is the raw unit to which you apply the 'delta' to get the actual modified unit. As is required after database updates for example.
The INST is a special file that contains 'ready to use' units that can be imported into Command at any time. If you want the unmodified version of units, it should be saved when the units are added to map before making any changes.

For the comms, I thought that it was treated the same as sensor/weapons in the SBR and delta. Or are you referring to the INST file???

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Post #: 12
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 2:42:20 AM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au
You shouldn't need to run 'deltas' against them as base units


This is the behavior way back then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kritter

The ability to save the unit as modified then reload it again makes like easier. The only reason now for running
a delta is to add back in comms which currently has to be done manually. It would be nice if it got added the
same way weapons and sensors were added.



Do you know when was this changed? Because from what's being said here, it feels more of a WAD now than a 'bug'.

I just think that the separation of INST and SBR when it comes to unit editing won't be much of an issue if we can edit comms system in-game, like you said. Though SBR still has to come in when you want to have the same modified attribute for the 'same' unit of different year/type (like '18 DDG 103 attributes to '18 DDG 91).

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 13
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 6:27:26 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Yea, I think I am getting myself confused here too.

Just to clear, you're referring to the buttons on the Unit Panel for Sensor and Weapon for changing the unit details.
Having one for Communications would assist as it would not require you to create an additional delta and apply it to have comm changes applied?

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Post #: 14
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 6:51:57 AM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

Yea, I think I am getting myself confused here too.

Just to clear, you're referring to the buttons on the Unit Panel for Sensor and Weapon for changing the unit details.
Having one for Communications would assist as it would not require you to create an additional delta and apply it to have comm changes applied?



Yes. Because this is what happens in the current method for using modified units with edited comms/datalinks:
1.) Export modified units' SBR files.
2.) Deep rebuild with DB to make the modified units revert to the base attributes.
3.) Export the modified units' INST file.
4.) Do some SBR editing to add the comms/datalinks you want.
5.) Import the INST file on the scenario you want to play.
6.) Apply the modified SBR files.

If you're not planning to use the SBR, you can skip steps 1, 2, 4, and 6. If you don't revert the modified units to their base attributes (via deep rebuild), but you still plan to use the SBR, you will get a wonky result for your units. Some sensors/mounts might end up being applied twice and you have to do some 'cleaning' to get the desired result.

Also like Kritter said, an option of included modified attributes or not for exporting units can help.

This is for the old method:
1.) Export modified units' SBR files.
2.) Export the modified units' INST file.
3.) Do some SBR editing to add the comms/datalinks you want.
4.) Import the INST file on the scenario you want to play.
5.) Apply the modified SBR files.

The main difference is that there are no rebuilds needed since the modified attributes will be stored in the SBR, rather than the INST as well.


My question is when was the current method implemented? I don't recall it being mentioned in the patch notes before. Note that the change happened sometime in CMANO. Also I assume this is WAD now since this is how CMO behaves.





< Message edited by Rain08 -- 8/16/2020 6:57:39 AM >

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 15
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 7:07:35 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Not sure, but I think including the actual unit modified/settings, came about due to wanting to be able to import a INST file via Lua directly into a scenario. When this happens, the INST has been 'unit ready' as there is no option to run a delta/ini over it.

To get an up to date INST, I personally would have:
1. Loaded the base units into a blank scenario
2. Modified the weapon and sensors of the units in-game
3. Saved the SBR->Generate Template (base) and SBR->Generate Delta Template (delta) for these units.
4. Modified the INI to remove/change the comms gear.
5. Apply the updated SBR script to units in-game
6. Export the final units as INST file
The INST should be available to be imported as is.


If you don't want the modified values in the INST, then you export it without changes (2-5). Which is what your saying is the end result you want???

< Message edited by michaelm75au -- 8/16/2020 7:12:50 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 7:18:28 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Here is one of your INST files
...
quote:

"MemberRecords": [
{
"Member_DBID": 3222,
"Member_GUID": "794cacea-b642-4520-8c71-5e7e9305eacb",
"MemberType": "Aircraft",
"MemberName": "F-15E Strike Eagle",
"ParentGroupName": null,
"Longitude": -28.846056309341268,
"Latitude": 59.97088761721691,
"Altitude": 0.0,
"LoadoutID": 15500,
"Orientation": 0.0,
"HostedAircraftRecords": [],
"EmbarkedBoatRecords": [],
"MagazineRecords": [],
"Member_SBR": "<DeltaUnit>\r\n <Unit_794cacea-b642-4520-8c71-5e7e9305eacb>\r\n <!--F-15E Strike Eagle (F-15E Strike Eagle [3222])-->\r\n <MountAdd_2555>\r\n <!--AN/ALE-55 Triple x 1 [3 Decoys]-->\r\n <Cov>\r\n <Seg>360</Seg>\r\n </Cov>\r\n </MountAdd_2555>\r\n </Unit_794cacea-b642-4520-8c71-5e7e9305eacb>\r\n</DeltaUnit>"
},


The delta ("Member_SBR":) is included in the file so it doesn't need to run a delta. If that block is removed, it is the same as before.
Which be the case if the mods weren't done.

< Message edited by michaelm75au -- 8/16/2020 7:20:09 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/16/2020 3:27:11 PM   
kritter

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline 		It comes down to this:

In my opinion the saved units should work as currently designed. It is a nice feature to have the units you
spent time on modifying to be saved with all of the modifications and just be able to load them back when you
want them. This is consistent with the cloning feature as well.

The comms still have to be added manually using the delta method but if that were added like weapons and sensors
buttons then there wouldn't be a lot of reasons to have the delta method for each unit.

I think they have done a great job in this method and I agree it is not a bug but a WAD now, and in my opinion
an improvement in the design.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 18
RE: Modified unit attributes are now saved during unit ... - 8/25/2020 5:10:16 PM   
Rain08

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/18/2016
Status: offline 		I got busy in the past couple of days, but anyway...

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au


If you don't want the modified values in the INST, then you export it without changes (2-5). Which is what your saying is the end result you want???


That's a viable idea, but the problem comes in when you want to work on more units for your template. If you didn't 'clear out' the INST, then you will overlap the changes with the SBR and it will result in double the application of the mods. Lets say like, instead of replacing the CIWS of the Burke with just two RAMs, you will end up with having four.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kritter

The comms still have to be added manually using the delta method but if that were added like weapons and sensors
buttons then there wouldn't be a lot of reasons to have the delta method for each unit.


I mean, the same thing can be said for weapons and sensors. Why include the ability to edit them in SBR if we can already do that in-game? We could just have both options when it comes to unit editing. Plus as far as I know, the only use for SBR is comms editing and for cloning the modified attributes to a similar unit.



And again, if anyone knows when this change was made, please let me know because I'm really curious about it. It kinda ruined my flow of doing unit templates at the time, but I eventually found my way again.

(in reply to kritter)
Post #: 19
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