RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A)

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/13/2018 9:18:11 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I like the look of Singora because it's the rail split. If you control that you still don't allow anything to be railed in which could really allow some element of surprise to Allied possibilities.

Are you both walking all of that way and can you keep him from nailing you at some point when his forces move faster than yours? Or even when you're evacuating Chumpon?

It would be walking all the way, unless I sacrifice a support unit to block north of Surat Thani and give the rest time to get into strat move and head south before he enters it. As you say Signora looks like a decent bet.

(in reply to obvert)

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 10:47:33 AM

Miller

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1st-31st Dec 44

Only real action of note is in China

The red areas are where most of the troop concentrations remain. In the south he manages to split the bulk of my forces in two, I manage to get 2k AV into Canton and behind 6 forts and x4 terrain so I doubt he will make any attempt to capture it for the time being. Looks like he is going to try for Hong Kong and the bases on the south eastern coast with his armour. The central area around Hankow and Changsha is still stalemated.

On mind messing's advice I lauched a limited counter offensive on the east coast and retook Haichow but am now bogged down at Suchow with no chance of taking it. I will probably retreat NE towards Tsinan before he kicks me out. In the air I throw every 2E Army bomber I have on a multiple missions to reduce the HI at Chungking. He rebuilt it up to 300 and I bomb it back down to 80, as you can imagine at great cost of about 400 a/c including escorts. I don't know if this will effect his supply situation in any way but at least I'm still trying...

The only other event to report is his restarting of night strat bombing of the homeland, which has been largely ineffective and netted him only a few hundred points for the month.

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< Message edited by Miller -- 10/22/2018 11:23:01 AM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 11:13:53 AM

Miller

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One very noteable development on the last day of the year. Recon picks up what looks like a possible invasion of the Marianas forming up just north Einiwetok:

The entire KB is to the north circled in red. From what I can tell from recon his CVE cover force with mainly fighters is sitting in the middle 10 hexes east of the Islands, no doubt hoping to draw a LBA strike. His assault shipping is towards the south east corner. No sign of his big CVs. The KB is not spotted yet but I imagine with the subs around it he must have a fair idea it is in the area. I've loaded up Guam, Tinian and Saipan with 250-300 fighters piloted by replacements and a small 27 plane TB unit. Hopefully if he comes closer they will launch and act as a noob fighter sweep and burn up the CAP somewhat for a large KB strike....

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< Message edited by Miller -- 10/22/2018 11:20:00 AM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 2:52:23 PM

Miller

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1st-3rd Jan 45

The 3rd sees a decisive carrier battle that tips the balance firmly towards the Allies.

The day gets off to a good start as CVE Almataha is sunk by a sub. The morning air phase sees both CV fleets unable to launch due to the weather, however most of the LBA on the Marianas fly:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Saipan at 114,98

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 35
B6N2a Jill x 3
J2M3 Jack x 27
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 38
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 33
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 35
Ki-84a Frank x 44
Ki-100-I Tony x 48

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 54
Hellcat I x 36
Hellcat F.II x 12
Seafire L.III x 60
Wildcat V x 12
FM-1 Wildcat x 221
FM-2 Wildcat x 744
F6F-3 Hellcat x 654
F6F-5 Hellcat x 84
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 3 destroyed by flak
B6N2a Jill: 1 damaged
J2M3 Jack: 12 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 14 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 9 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 12 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 17 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 21 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire L.III: 1 destroyed
FM-1 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
FM-2 Wildcat: 5 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Gambier Bay
CVE Manila Bay, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Liscome Bay, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
CVE Nehenta Bay, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Kalinin Bay, Torpedo hits 1, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire
CVE White Plains, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Natoma Bay, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
3 x B6N2a Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

So despite his monster almost 2000 plane CAP (obviously virtually every flat top he has in the game is there no doubt) the bullet sponges do their job and the Jills get through and a 50% hit rate. Unfortunately another 50 or so fail to locate the target or it could have been even worse for him.

Then in the PM phase the KB launches a monster:
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Saipan at 112,97

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 25
A6M5c Zero x 64
A6M8 Zero x 424
B7A2 Grace x 300
D4Y3 Judy x 267
D4Y4 Judy x 69

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 50
Hellcat I x 36
Hellcat F.II x 12
Seafire L.III x 59
Wildcat V x 12
FM-1 Wildcat x 142
FM-2 Wildcat x 496
F6F-3 Hellcat x 344
F6F-5 Hellcat x 38

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 5 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 16 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 78 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 16 destroyed, 21 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 19 destroyed, 14 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair II: 1 destroyed
Hellcat I: 3 destroyed
Hellcat F.II: 1 destroyed
Seafire L.III: 1 destroyed
Wildcat V: 2 destroyed
FM-1 Wildcat: 13 destroyed
FM-2 Wildcat: 32 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 19 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Attu
CVE Salamaua
CVE Saginaw Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Hoggatt Bay, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Petrof Bay, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Fanshaw Bay, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVE Shipley Bay, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Savo Island, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Rudyerd Bay, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Sitkoh Bay, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Wake Island, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CV Kircholm
DD Picking, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CVE Takanis Bay
CVE Kasaan Bay, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Sargent Bay
CVE Casablanca, Torpedo hits 1
CVE St. Lo, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Houston II, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Robinson
DD Philip, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Ringgold, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB New Jersey, Torpedo hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1
CVE Roi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD John Rodgers
DD Rowe, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Vincennes II, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD David Taylor, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Sigsbee
CVL San Jacinto
CVE Admiralty Island, Bomb hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Richard P. Leary
DD Pringle
CVE Ranee
CVL Independence, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

About 80% of the bombers get through the CAP, however results are relatively poor due to severe storms over the target, plus as in previous games, the targeting AI concentrates on the CVEs and leaves his CV unmolested....

So for a moment I'm thinking he has set his strike a/c to rest as his CAP was so high...unfortunately I was very wrong:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tinian at 109,97

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 11
A6M5c Zero x 26
A6M8 Zero x 181
J2M3 Jack x 6
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 32
Barracuda II x 17
FM-1 Wildcat x 29
FM-2 Wildcat x 26
F6F-3 Hellcat x 272
F6F-5 Hellcat x 42
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 146
SB2C-3 Helldiver x 174
TBF-1 Avenger x 30
TBM-1C Avenger x 292

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 9 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Avenger II: 1 damaged
Barracuda II: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 5 destroyed, 16 damaged
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 7 destroyed, 24 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 28 destroyed, 22 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 2 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Ikoma, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Aso, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Nisshin, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Kasagi, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVL Zuiho, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Hosho, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Teruzuki
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Natsuzuki, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVL Ibuki, Bomb hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Umikaze, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nagato
CVL Ryuho, Torpedo hits 1
DD Samidare, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yudachi, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Haruzuki, Bomb hits 1
DD Makinami, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Tamanami
DD Hamanami
DD Hayanami
DD Hatsuzuki

He gets better weather and my CAP is far too small to kill many of the bombers (I had it set at 30%, in hindsight it should have been 50%). As you can see about half the KB is destroyed. Overall it looks like I sink about 15 CVEs, but at a cost of 5 or 6 CVs and 5 CVLs. We both lose around 1000 a/c to all causes. No doubt with all his CVs still in play he will go for the kill tomorrow....

< Message edited by Miller -- 10/22/2018 3:00:33 PM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 2:54:20 PM

Miller

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Air losses

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 2:55:25 PM

Miller

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By type

Bomber losses are fairly light on both sides due to the huge escorts they had. Most the surviving a/c from my doomed carriers are on the Marianas but I'm sure he will be sending bomardment TFs to each base next turn. Do I evacuate them or stand and fight???

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< Message edited by Miller -- 10/22/2018 2:57:53 PM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 3:48:20 PM

Lowpe

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Epic late war CV clash...I think you did well given the circumstances (i.e. weather disparity)

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 3:54:58 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Epic late war CV clash...I think you did well given the circumstances (i.e. weather disparity)

I agree. Considering the size of his CAP I have to be happy many bombers got through at all, just the weather dice roll let me down. What would you do in Kane's shoes? Surely he must press on despite losing so many a/c?

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 4:17:25 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Epic late war CV clash...I think you did well given the circumstances (i.e. weather disparity)

I agree. Considering the size of his CAP I have to be happy many bombers got through at all, just the weather dice roll let me down. What would you do in Kane's shoes? Surely he must press on despite losing so many a/c?

He will attack everywhere he can now with increased vigor.

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 4:51:41 PM

Canoerebel

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That looked decent, Paul. You're into '45 and still not backed into a corner. I think you're fighting well. A Japanese player who fights into '45 against a quality opponent deserves some kind of tenacity medal.

P.S. Where are his Corsairs?

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/22/2018 5:27:41 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That looked decent, Paul. You're into '45 and still not backed into a corner. I think you're fighting well. A Japanese player who fights into '45 against a quality opponent deserves some kind of tenacity medal.

P.S. Where are his Corsairs?

Thanks for the support Dan. It's a PDU off game so he is stuck with Wildcats on his CVEs

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/23/2018 8:16:18 PM

Miller

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4th Jan 45

After sending most of the orphan air units from the destroyed CVs to beef up the remaining CVs depleted air groups I retreat the survivors of the KB a hex to the west of Tinian, reload the three large airfields (Guam, Tinian and Saipan) with fresh strike a/c and send a stout SCTF to each base to guard against any bombardments. I also form two TFs headed by a couple of old CLs and DDs to try and pick off a few of his cripples at night. One of these runs into a bombardment TF of 6 old BBs but for some reason avoids combat

. However in the morning for some reason they accept combat with a force containing 4 CAs and the old sisters Tenyru and Tatsuta go down along with their 4 escorting DDs. The other CL TF meets one of his CVE TFs but despite their slow speed they manage to evade combat

. This TF is then destroyed by his massed carrier air during the day. In total I lose 5 CL and 13 DD this day.

His mega CV TF remains about 8 hexes from the Marianas and swats away a few small attacks from my LBA, killing about 150 a/c. The only bright spot is one of my LBA groups attacks the damaged CVL Independence, BB New Jersey and 2 escorting DDs and sinks the lot

. In tems of VPs for the day its a draw but of course any draw is pretty much a defeat for the Japs at this stage in the game. What will he do next turn I wonder?

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/24/2018 10:13:19 PM

Miller

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5th-6th Jan 45

He retreats his CV fleet a few hexes south from the Marianas on the 5th and I take the chance to regroup and load up all the airfields to the max and position the KB one hex off Guam and Tinian. He must have anticipated this and moves a forest of subs to where my CVs end up on the 6th, which is a day of disaster for the IJN. My fleets endure sub attack after attack. Hiryu takes 3 torps and is almost certainly a goner, Zuikaku and Shokaku take one each but both suffer ammo explosions and their flight decks are closed. Another two CVs are attacked but missed. After viewing the replay I had a big wobble and sent Kane a message to say I was thinking of quitting, but after a few hours of reflection I realised I owe it to him to continue considering the time and effort he has put into the game.

< Message edited by Miller -- 10/24/2018 10:17:52 PM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/24/2018 10:40:15 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

5th-6th Jan 45

He retreats his CV fleet a few hexes south from the Marianas on the 5th and I take the chance to regroup and load up all the airfields to the max and position the KB one hex off Guam and Tinian. He must have anticipated this and moves a forest of subs to where my CVs end up on the 6th, which is a day of disaster for the IJN. My fleets endure sub attack after attack. Hiryu takes 3 torps and is almost certainly a goner, Zuikaku and Shokaku take one each but both suffer ammo explosions and their flight decks are closed. Another two CVs are attacked but missed. After viewing the replay I had a big wobble and sent Kane a message to say I was thinking of quitting, but after a few hours of reflection I realised I owe it to him to continue considering the time and effort he has put into the game.

Don't quit! You're in a fantastic position for Japan going in to 1945. There are plenty of big obstacles for the Allies to yet overcome.

If China gets you down, just remember that the Chinese don't have a navy and they can't threaten the Home Islands except by air.

In retrospect, it may have been better to let the Allies land first before committing the KB to oppose the landing, as having transport ships unloading ties down a lot of Allied resources - the CVE's need to protect the landing, BB's need to bombard and a healthy dose of SCTF's need to protect the lot. It would have also given your land-based air a chance to do some proper attrition of Allied naval strength, but the Marianas is about the worst place on the map to rotate air groups in.

There's a nice chunk gone from the Allied CVE fleet, and if he's withdrawing then you've won a tactical victory here. Replenish the land-based air groups, get your cripples out of the area and batten down for round two. Now that you know where he's going, you can take some serious steps to make the landings harder - mines, subs, midgets ect.

I'd also start bulking up the Bonin's and Minadano/Luzon ASAP, they're the next stop for the Allies!

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/24/2018 10:47:57 PM

Canoerebel

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Paul, I hope you are one of the players who pays attention to points, because that's how the game is designed to be played and that's when it's the must fun. By that measure, a 1:1 day for Japan is usually a victory, since the Allies need 2:1 to win (or more, if they're climbing out of a deficit).

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/25/2018 11:39:03 AM

obvert

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The loss of the KB is going to happen sooner or later, and the good news is it's far from the HI and you're taking down fairly equal VPs. He's especially lost a lot of good pilots there, and it's hard to train them up for the USN. The LBA strike you put together gives a lot of hope for the future as well.

I agree with Dan. It's time to really think about using the VP system to stay in it during 45 and keep pushing to get equal ratio losses. Consider also that instead of a strike on day 2 just setting up massive CAP traps and letting the Allies hit where you want them, rather than bring to hit them.

Hang in there, it's a wild ride from here on out!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/25/2018 5:01:08 PM

Bif1961

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This time his subs make their mark after the carrier battle in the Mariannes, historically they did their greatest damage before.

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/31/2018 7:59:03 PM

Miller

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7th-15th Jan 45

All valid points/comments everyone. I've never been a fan of the points system, mainly down to the fact some things should be worth a lot more than they actually are and other things worth less.

Well, with half the KB being sunk or badly damaged I have no choice but to retreat north and leave the Marianas to their fate. I manage to get the crippled CVs Shokaku, Zuikaku and Aso back through his forest of subs to the home islands, but they are all out of action for at least 3-4 months each. Hiryu manages to stagger to Ulithi atoll, but with 60 float damage and surrounded by enemy bases it will take a miracle to save her now.

I left a SCTF consisting of BBs Hiei and Haruna plus escorts at Guam to protect the airfiled whilst the fighters based there provided long range CAP for my damaged CVs. They meet a total of 4 separate Allied fast BB TFs and go down fighting:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 106,95, Range 8,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 3 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Hiei, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
CA Tone
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 1
DD Akigumo
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami
DD Hayanami
DD Okinami, Shell hits 1
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 1
DD Michishio, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 19, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Washington, Shell hits 30, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Barton, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Woodworth, Shell hits 1
DD Bancroft, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
DD Caldwell, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Washington takes a torp early in the battle and is then pounded by both my BBs. North Carolina pretty much cripples Hiei but in turn Haruna hits her with at least ten 14" shells and both US BBs are then finished off by more torps. Then the next fight sees them face against another 2 US BBs, 2 Brit BBs and finally a French BB with BCs Renown and Repulse. Obviously already hurting and low and ammo both Hiei and Haruna are finished off. I do however manage to salvage the rest of the TF to fight another day.

Meanwhile on the ground he lands at Guam and it falls after couple of attacks, he is also landed at Rota and Tinian and both will fall in the next day or two. The final totals for the Marianas battle are as follows:

Allied losses: About 15 CVE, 3 fast US BBs, 2 modern CLs, about 10 DDs.

Jap losses: 5 CV (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Kasagi, Hiryu), 5 CVL/E, 2 BBs, 5 old CLs and about 15 DD.

Air losses pretty even at about 1200 planes each. So points wise he won by a few hundred I would imagine, but any ratio better than 1:2 for me is quite good at this stage of the game.

Elsewhere in China he takes Hong Kong, nothing really much else to report.

< Message edited by Miller -- 10/31/2018 9:08:06 PM >

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/31/2018 8:37:36 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

7th-15th Jan 45

All valid points/comments everyone. I've never been a fan of the points system, mainly down to the fact some things should be worth a lot more than they actually are and other things worth less.

The points system is exquisite. It works and it makes the game challenging and fun for both sides.

As for the imperfections in relative values, it works out in the end. And there's challenge and pleasure in discovering how the points system is weighted and how to then make it all work for you.

In the real war, Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Iwo and Okinawa were worth a lot while Hokkaido, the Kuriles, and Java were worth relatively little. But the players aren't bound by real war values. They chart their own courses, choose their own objectives, and go. It's the same with the points system - it doesn't match the real war perfectly, but it works.

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/31/2018 9:11:08 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

7th-15th Jan 45

All valid points/comments everyone. I've never been a fan of the points system, mainly down to the fact some things should be worth a lot more than they actually are and other things worth less.

The points system is exquisite. It works and it makes the game challenging and fun for both sides.

As for the imperfections in relative values, it works out in the end. And there's challenge and pleasure in discovering how the points system is weighted and how to then make it all work for you.

In the real war, Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Iwo and Okinawa were worth a lot while Hokkaido, the Kuriles, and Java were worth relatively little. But the players aren't bound by real war values. They chart their own courses, choose their own objectives, and go. It's the same with the points system - it doesn't match the real war perfectly, but it works.

I just can't get my head around the fact that 15 obsolete a/c are worth as much as one first line destroyer. But, as you say, it's the same for both sides so (in a way) it works out in the end.

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 10/31/2018 10:14:12 PM

mind_messing

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To be honest, if you don't embrace the VP system playing as Japan you'll have a bad time.

It turns one-sided engagements into tactical victories for Japan, on the ground, at sea and in the air.

The best example is a single Allied CVE, which are worth around 90 points. That means, as Japan, you can lose 179 VP's (or less) worth of stuff, but come out ahead if you sink the CVE...

Changes the mindset that you need in the late war.

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 591

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 4:44:05 PM

Bif1961

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The trade of two older Japanese BCs for two modern American BBs was a good trade in points.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 592

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 5:07:55 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The trade of two older Japanese BCs for two modern American BBs was a good trade in points.

That's my point with the points system (pardon the pun). I got 64 points more for sinking two modern BBs than I lost for losing two old BBs......

(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 593

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 5:19:41 PM

Bif1961

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As it should be as the American BBs were more valuable in a point system but since he has far more of them then you do, you have 12 BBs total and he has that many modern one between the 3 modern classes of BBs and 2 modern BCs. That doesn't include the British or his older BBs. So though you came out on top 2 older modernized BCs for two modern BBs, you actually lost in the real world as now you have 2 less of 12 and he has 2 less of maybe 30-40 BBs/BCs.

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 594

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 7:12:45 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961
So though you came out on top 2 older modernized BCs for two modern BBs, you actually lost in the real world as now you have 2 less of 12 and he has 2 less of maybe 30-40 BBs/BCs.

It important that this is points game, not an eye-for-eye game.
Striving for making dents in total Allied material would be exactly the wrong approach, because you can just as well surrender on Dec 7, 41 as Japan. But play for the points and you can win

(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 595

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 9:35:37 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The trade of two older Japanese BCs for two modern American BBs was a good trade in points.

That's my point with the points system (pardon the pun). I got 64 points more for sinking two modern BBs than I lost for losing two old BBs......

To be blunt, that's a great result, and about as good an outcome as you can get for the IJN's capital ships in 1945. It could (and normally is) much worse - from what I've seen it's more common to lose the IJN's battleships to subs, CV strikes or more often in surface combat against hordes of Allied DD's.

You made a good qualitative trade and a good trade on the points front. Going for a quantitative trade as well is just plain greedy!

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 596

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/1/2018 10:50:47 PM

Bif1961

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The Japanese themselves recognized the quantitative deficit even before the war. Captain Hara's book pointed out that each Destroyer had to sink 3 enemy ones and yet survive that battle to break even. The Japanese were fighting to make the cost of reconquest too costly on the Allies and drive them to the negotiation table.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 597

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/2/2018 11:06:36 AM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

As it should be as the American BBs were more valuable in a point system but since he has far more of them then you do, you have 12 BBs total and he has that many modern one between the 3 modern classes of BBs and 2 modern BCs. That doesn't include the British or his older BBs. So though you came out on top 2 older modernized BCs for two modern BBs, you actually lost in the real world as now you have 2 less of 12 and he has 2 less of maybe 30-40 BBs/BCs.

Yes of course, the point I was making is there should have been an even greater point disparity in my favour considering the age/capability gap of the BBs in question. Obviously I am happy just to come out ahead at all at this stage of the game

(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 598

RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 11/2/2018 1:47:49 PM

Lowpe

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Another great engagement!