RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Mods and Scenarios >> RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 8:56:20 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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ok i give up what does PO mean!

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 9:15:51 AM

Zovs

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Programmed Opponent

There is no real AI in any war games, TOAW uses the PO. This is done by the scenario designer setting objectives and other things for the PO.

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Post #: 32

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 9:19:52 AM

Zovs

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In a technical sense creating an AI is no small task, generally many machines are connected to create an AI system which learns, it can cost millions of dollars and consume massive resources to creat an AI.

Wargames use scripts or the programmer to code basic logic to create a PO opponent .

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Post #: 33

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 10:01:32 AM

Shadrach

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I get how a scenario without a PO can only be played PBEM/H2H.

What I don't get is why D21 says it can only be played solo as Germans. What would it matter if another person takes the role of the Soviets? Unless the scenario is heavily biased toward one side.

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Post #: 34

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 10:09:33 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline

+1

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Post #: 35

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 11:00:39 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

Unless the scenario is heavily biased toward one side.

That's a statement that some will use in any situation, so I won't debate it. The point is that - when D21 was created there was a very similar two player scenario called Fire in the East. That scenario had no PO. So D21 became a very similar scenario to that one but with a Soviet PO. Therefore, D21 offered solitaire play vs. the Soviet computer. Now in order to get the best possible out of the computer, the Soviet side had to be set up differently, so much so that if we said that a human could take control of the Soviets, then the Axis player might cry foul on the 'balance' card. Therefore, D21 doesn't like humans playing the Soviet side

The sad thing is that for some reason FitE was not carried over to TOAW IV. FitE2 is in IV, but it is entirely different and at a different scale, so it's not the same

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Post #: 36

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 11:09:15 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
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for me this is better than FITE2 because less stuff to move when if was younger i would have jumped at the chance to play FITE2 its just to big now.

< Message edited by tigercub -- 7/2/2019 11:11:30 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 11:13:24 AM

sPzAbt653

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So why not play against the Soviet computer [D21]. Why play against an annoying human ?

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Post #: 38

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 1:16:49 PM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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mainly i will beat any PO. i am playing D21 now as you said to understand AOWIV more i very much love this game!
Thanks
Tigercub

< Message edited by tigercub -- 7/2/2019 1:17:41 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 4:31:00 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

mainly i will beat any PO.

I guess that's fair, but you don't really want to lose, do you ?

Don't forget to use 'J' and '.', they are some real nice hotkeys !

And if the units look a little too small, try 'Y' to see if it helps [Shift + Y to undo].

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Post #: 40

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/2/2019 5:39:47 PM

Shadrach

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From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
That's a statement that some will use in any situation, so I won't debate it. The point is that - when D21 was created there was a very similar two player scenario called Fire in the East. That scenario had no PO. So D21 became a very similar scenario to that one but with a Soviet PO. Therefore, D21 offered solitaire play vs. the Soviet computer. Now in order to get the best possible out of the computer, the Soviet side had to be set up differently, so much so that if we said that a human could take control of the Soviets, then the Axis player might cry foul on the 'balance' card. Therefore, D21 doesn't like humans playing the Soviet side

OK I had a look at it, and according to the description, it's biased towards the Soviet player to give the PO a chance. Fair enough, if the creator has gone to these lengths to make it harder (and probably more realistic) for a human player against a computer.

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Post #: 41

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/4/2019 3:58:05 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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must not be that hard to edit to a Human vs Human game! 90% done?

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/4/2019 5:00:53 AM

BigDuke66

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From: Terra
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LOL, far from reality. I guess doing a Russian PO is, despite the rather "simple" Russian strategy, still a hard job, but a German PO to stop the Russian steamroller? All tracks would have to be used and if that would be enough to react to all circumstances is doubtful.
There is just a reason that some scenarios do not have a PO for a certain side, the performances needed for that side is just too high and a humans has to do the job.

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Post #: 43

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/4/2019 5:55:13 AM

sPzAbt653

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Duke is correct, however the main reason there hasn't been a PO for the Axis is that I really never considered that anyone would be serious about playing the Soviets against the computer. I mean serious, not just playing the first 20-30 turns. Over the years though, there has been a good bit of interest in the Soviet side, so I am now working on it.

quote:

a German PO to stop the Russian steamroller?

It's the epitome of game design [the Eastern Front] and nobody will ever get it right. Is it a 69 Camaro or 72 GTO or 65 Mustang, etc. But in between Nothing and a Human Opponent, there can be Something. So I strive for Something. This initial Something will not challenge the PO to stop the Soviet Steamroller, it will challenge the Human Player not to lose Leningrad, Moscow or Stalingrad. If you can manage that, then you get the opportunity to build your steamroller and use it [against a PO with a lot of disadvantages!].

We'll see how that goes once we've had a few serious players. By the way, I am not one of them. I tried a first rough test and I lasted eight turns, and it's not something I ever want to try again. I really don't like the challenge of the Soviet side.

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Post #: 44

RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/23/2019 6:37:19 PM

larryfulkerson

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Hey Steve: are there any more versions of D21 higher than this one. I want to restart my D21 game and I'd rather use the latest
version there is.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.6 - 7/23/2019 6:48:27 PM

sPzAbt653

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The version I am working on right now is for the Axis PO vs. Human Soviet, so you have the latest [Soviet PO version].

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Post #: 46