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RE: September 20 1942 - 1/5/2019 5:16:58 PM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

But what a silly creation it is. How can anybody take seriously a mod in which Japanese heavy bombers have 50% more range than the best Allied bombers?

Oh come on;

like every other naval Japanese airplane, check it please;

you can add to the fray the Peggy and the other late VLG Army bomber, + others for Army's side

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro
I think there is a different between Nells and heavy bombers, though

Yes, that the latter have longer range

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 1/5/2019 5:21:26 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 811

RE: September 20 1942 - 1/5/2019 5:26:08 PM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro
Elsewhere, in Australia John takes Normanton. However, Normanton is easily in range of my 2E bombers, has no airfields, and is too far away for him to do LRCAP from other bases. So, to teach John a lesson here, I will simply do 2E bombing raids ad nauseum.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 812

RE: September 20 1942 - 1/5/2019 5:46:43 PM

Anachro

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I have yet to see Rufes in-game and doubt John has any nearby. If they do appear, I can easily sweep with fighters from Cloncurry. Not a problem.

As for the bombers, I see that your ascribe to fantasy land like John on them, but regardless of how you feel in that regard, you cannot use the light-weight, light construction Nells (and other Japanese planes of similar make, light bomb load, and thus long range) as a counterpoint when discussing the range of 4E fantasy bombers that go farther, have equivalent armor, and carry a greater bomb load then their American counterparts. You are comparing apples to oranges. The Liz's stats don't match with its attributes and it's a tad unrealistic. There's a reason a lot of the planes in Japan's naval arsenal had longer range...and there's a reason they were a lot more easily destroyed and combustible.

And before you spout off the plane's theoretical specifications from Wikipedia, please remember that the plane was judged not fit with design flaws that caused Japan not to pursue further development. It's all well and good to believe that in an alternate history Japan somehow succeeding in producing some form of the Liz that was viable, but if you are going to do that you need to justify some sacrifices to be made to account for that. Maybe Japan solved it's problems by reducing the armor and max bomb load, maybe it produced some new configuration of construction material and engines that fixed the under-powered nature of the plane, but if you do these there will be sacrifices: perhaps the new engines and amplified power means reduced range and endurance, perhaps they sacrifice armor and durability in order to get best range and bomb load possible.

As it stands now, the mod assumes none of these things are needed and the Liz reaches its theoretical specifications according to Wikipedia without any issues. The end result is a bomber whose specifications are nearly a match for their American equivalents with longer range. This is fantasy.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 1/5/2019 5:47:57 PM >

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Post #: 813

RE: September 20 1942 - 1/5/2019 8:38:40 PM

adarbrauner

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When you'll read John's AAR you see I've proposed him to reduce Liz's payload at ext range + practical ceiling limit, in the underpowered version, and he agreed

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Post #: 814

September 21 1942 - 1/5/2019 10:18:30 PM

Anachro

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September 21 1942

John puts a large amount of zeroes and Tojos over the skies of Asanol and my CAP + escort isn't enough to offset his fighters. My CAP does pretty well and certainly deals more than it takes in terms of attrition, but John's LRCAP is able to break through my CAP/ESCORTS to eat into the bombers and I lose about ~60 planes in total for the day of mostly bombers and some fighters. John loses ~30 fighters as a result. Given that his fighters took some damage, I launch mass sweeps for the next day against Calcutta and Howrah followed by massed bombings against Calcutta. In addition, I am launching sporadic bombings against Cuttack, Viza, and Trincomalee, trying to find where John is basing his bombers. I've bombed Howrah, Rajnashi (or w.e. its called) and Dacca over the past week and done damage to the airfields there without finding massed bombers on the ground. Time to look elsewhere.

In China, John's divisions are in danger of being completely wrecked or destroyed. Given that they didn't fall back this turn, I'm starting to wonder if they are surrounded. John also moves across the river elsewhere with two divisions and loses a division's worth of squads to disablements.

quote:

Ground combat at 76,46 (near Chungking)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 61445 troops, 92 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2123

Defending force 36303 troops, 375 guns, 44 vehicles, Assault Value = 116

Allied adjusted assault: 160

Japanese adjusted defense: 205

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
3989 casualties reported
Squads: 357 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 45 (5 destroyed, 40 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
817 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 80 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defending units:
63rd Division
37th Division
110th Division
29th Division

quote:

Ground combat at 75,46 (near Chungking)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 25305 troops, 204 guns, 28 vehicles, Assault Value = 776

Defending force 31993 troops, 119 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1075

Japanese adjusted assault: 489

Allied adjusted defense: 1090

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
3341 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 309 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
250 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
34th Division
35th Division
1st Army
12th Army

Defending units:
91st Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
4th Group Army

< Message edited by Anachro -- 1/5/2019 10:23:50 PM >

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Post #: 815

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 1:21:00 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Some good comments on this mod. The Liz really causes the Allied player to be more cautious, and with more flattops and carrier-capable fighters, the KB could easily be viable until 1945. On the other hand, Juan's aircraft purchase system should help. Anachro: Are you making much use of that? Do you have enough PPs to buy the aircraft you need? Is there anything else noticeable that helps you out vs. stock?

Cheers,
CB

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Post #: 816

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 1:49:08 PM

Bif1961

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If every weapon lived up to estimates then the MK-14 US fleet 21 inch torpedo would have been sinking massive Japanese ships in 1941 and not made into a viable weapon in 1943 after 18 months of futility. There are many examples where weapon systems didn't live up to specifications and some that were much better than anticipated. The short comings of the Liz were well known by the Japanese and is the primary reason it was never built as a bomber, they built only 6 and used them all as transports. This mod is a what if, and if approached that way, then it can be played and be fun, but it is not historical. The same can be said for the Germans, what if they decided to make a strategic bomber instead of concentrating on combat support aircraft like the Stuka and short range medium bombers? What if the British had not developed RADAR, which was the decisive factor in their ability to marshal their smaller air force against German bombing attacks during the Battle of Britain? There is a difference between what if Japan didn't attack PH and instead focused PI-DEI-Malayan axis, like the American planners thought they would, using, using the same historic forces and equipment? Now that would be a historic what if without enhancing the ability of one country over the other. John is working to tinker with the mod and he mentioned the Liz is one of those to be changed to lessen it's stats because it pratically turns it into a B-29 2 years before the Americans made a B-29, after spending almost 2 billion dollars and with the massive US manufacturing and engineering base to support that type of effort while having little affect in other areas. If the Japanese did build the Liz, assuming it worked as a decent strategic bomber, it would have to be offset by losses elsewhere, as Japan didn't have the spare capacity. So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon, or additional high altitude AAA? Where is the balance then, as you tip the scale in one direction shouldn't you counter-balance or at least attempt to do so?

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)

Post #: 817

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 2:54:13 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961
So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon

Is a balance so important really? The game itself is in no way balanced and never was, and that is one of the reasons we love it. Some shiny toys with a bit of fantasy mixed in here and there would not change the final fate of Japan. E.g. I can imagine some alternative history mod where Japan did everything right before the war (well, except waking the sleeping giant that is), quelled its faction struggle, made some tech breakthroughs/purchases.. And still lost in the end.

(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 818

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 4:02:35 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

If every weapon lived up to estimates then the MK-14 US fleet 21 inch torpedo would have been sinking massive Japanese ships in 1941 and not made into a viable weapon in 1943 after 18 months of futility. There are many examples where weapon systems didn't live up to specifications and some that were much better than anticipated. The short comings of the Liz were well known by the Japanese and is the primary reason it was never built as a bomber, they built only 6 and used them all as transports. This mod is a what if, and if approached that way, then it can be played and be fun, but it is not historical. The same can be said for the Germans, what if they decided to make a strategic bomber instead of concentrating on combat support aircraft like the Stuka and short range medium bombers? What if the British had not developed RADAR, which was the decisive factor in their ability to marshal their smaller air force against German bombing attacks during the Battle of Britain? There is a difference between what if Japan didn't attack PH and instead focused PI-DEI-Malayan axis, like the American planners thought they would, using, using the same historic forces and equipment? Now that would be a historic what if without enhancing the ability of one country over the other. John is working to tinker with the mod and he mentioned the Liz is one of those to be changed to lessen it's stats because it pratically turns it into a B-29 2 years before the Americans made a B-29, after spending almost 2 billion dollars and with the massive US manufacturing and engineering base to support that type of effort while having little affect in other areas. If the Japanese did build the Liz, assuming it worked as a decent strategic bomber, it would have to be offset by losses elsewhere, as Japan didn't have the spare capacity. So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon, or additional high altitude AAA? Where is the balance then, as you tip the scale in one direction shouldn't you counter-balance or at least attempt to do so?

It wasn't so much that the British had radar stations, it was that they linked them all to a central air defence HQ that could coordinate all the air defence efforts. This was a revolutionary concept at the time, and was kept secret from the Germans for some time.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 819

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 4:02:49 PM

Canoerebel

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This imbalance might be significant because it occurs early in the war, when Japan already has marked advantages.

We all agree that Japan needs a substantial boost to make the game enjoyable for those playing that side. The game started that way and most mods have improved on that in a variety of ways. Japan is much stronger than in real life, as we all know and appreciate. A lot of those improvements are for early war capabilities (extra divisions in Scenario 2, extra ships and other stuff in John IIIs mods, reduced cargo capacities in some mods, and so on). There has been a trend (not universal, but fairly marked) that Japan is a juggernaut early game that can destroy the Allies, taking out China, and so on.

Strengthening Japan early game probably isn't necessary any longer, from a competition standpoint. It's in the late game that Japan may still need a boost in some ways.

Frontloading enhancements may well imbalance the game in weird ways that neither player foresees. Testing by playing will reveal those eventually, but it can make for some nail-biting moments for a player who discovers he bit off more than he can chew. An example of that might be discovering that enemy 4EB have a range of 25 hexes (or whatever), so that you have to provide far more coverage (CAP) than before.

We're still figuring balance issues so that it doesn't go too far one way or another.

Underlying that is the reluctance of many players to utilize the points system, which makes many of the changes unnecessary. If players wrap their head around the points system, they'll find that the game is indeed competitive into 1945, especially any game with PDU on. But many players don't like playing the game as it was designed to be played. Those of us that have adapated to the points system (some of us after a long time) have found that it adds a richness to the game that is superb.

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 820

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 4:04:41 PM

paullus99

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Part of the problem with these fantasy mods is that it makes like that much more miserable for the Allied player for the first two years of the game. Sure, there is some recompense, based on adding some aircraft (and few carriers, etc), but given the huge difference in overall experience levels, the Allied player is going to take it on the chin, over and over again, for quite a while.

Given the low numbers of games which make it to late 44 / 45, the Allied player is denied the use of most of the really fun toys they get....and really makes it more of a masochistic experience that it would otherwise be.

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Post #: 821

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/7/2019 4:47:18 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Strengthening Japan early game probably isn't necessary any longer, from a competition standpoint. It's in the late game that Japan may still need a boost in some ways.

Those considerations are always important, but they seem to be subjective to particular players and modders. It is not that the talk we have here is about fleshing out baseline Stock 1 scenario balance that would serve as a benchmark for years to come. It is some mod that some fellows might enjoy playing, being fully aware about Japan's boosts within. If there are players who agree to play a thing, this thing has earned the right to exist by just that fact. E.g. Lowpe is currently running a game where he chose to wake up Soviets way too early which threw the game completely off balance. It is painful, he suffers as Japan, but that's the way he likes to play.
John might want to reconsider his assessment of Japanese capabilities if his intention is to stay close to his version of non-Treaty Japan development. But that consideration is different and does not involve balance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99
Part of the problem with these fantasy mods is that it makes like that much more miserable for the Allied player for the first two years of the game. Sure, there is some recompense, based on adding some aircraft (and few carriers, etc), but given the huge difference in overall experience levels, the Allied player is going to take it on the chin, over and over again, for quite a while.

New players tend to not play mods, those are for regulars who would consequently be more informed about what the mods have to offer, including imbalances. Besides, right here right now Anachro gives John a lot of hurt, and not the other way around. Sometimes I worry it is John that would throw a flag too soon

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Post #: 822

September 22 1942 - 1/7/2019 5:11:36 PM

Anachro

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@everyone Some good discussion going on above. Regarding the mod, I think that if John's goal is to stick close to some probably form of Japanese R&D and ship development in a non-treaty world run by Yamamoto, he has a bit to go in that regard in making his choices plausible. I am under no illusions about the mod strengthening Japan, indeed that is its goal, but as with the Liz thought has to be put into the sacrifices necessary to achieve those changes and variations from Japan's historical development. I haven't looked into it, but, for instance, what are the sacrifices to be made in regards to developing a Jack or George model that is viable for carrier operations? Are they currently worse than their land-based counterparts or the same in technical specifications? Should they have somewhat worse specifications? Was it even possible to make a George work on a carrier? I think some more thought needs to be put into questions like this.

However, at the same time, I'm perfectly fine with make Japan stronger and giving her new toys and moving R&D around, etc. It's just I want it to make a little more sense, at least in my eyes. I think this is a harsh criticism from me, perhaps too harsh as I'd need to extensively study the changes and thought processes behind them to really say whether or not this is the case. I haven't done so, so take my view with a grain of salt.

Regarding the game itself, I feel pretty comfortable at the moment in my lines of defense. That said, John still has the capabilities and navy to make a push if he wishes to, but I'm not sure what the long-term benefits of him doing so are. I think I could contain any potential push, but at the same time I feel like the capabilities Japan has makes its ability to conduct a forward defense much stronger and it's a lot more precarious for the Allies to be conducting an early offensive. We'll see.

September 22 1942

India
Today, we launch massive sweeps of Calcutta and my fighters manage to wear down Calcutta's extensive CAP of ~220 fighters before the 4E's come in and destroy a number on the ground in addition to bringing the damage at the airfield to 70. Tomorrow, we will attack Calcutta again and aim to take the airfield out of service...permanently. We will then move on to shutdown Howrah's level 4 airfield (which has also been at ~30-40 damage for the past 5 days). The air losses would have been more in my favor had I not sent unescorted bombers elsewhere thinking John would have no CAP there, but it seems John is able to have a CAP of 220 fighter between Howrah and Calcutta plus small CAP's elsewhere. I lose bombers at Viza and Tincomalee.

North Pacific
Up in the Aleutians, I set a LRCAP trap and have a single xAK delivering cargo to one of the recently taken dot islands. John managed to sink my cargo ship, but he loses 25 Vals in the process.

Australia
John has also had a lot of CA/CL/DD's hanging around exmouth and today I launch a strike with some old Vindicators that manage to break through the CAP and sink a destroyer, which is nice. Always happy to slowly degrade his number of surface ships. It's too bad of a destroyer either, an Asashio-class destroyer. It's fun to do it with some old model dive bombers too.

China
In China, we push back John's divisions for decent losses to them, but I would have liked to have destroyed them instead. Some AV will move to their path of retreat across the river and see if we can cause more hurt. Other corps and AV will be moving to the other hex where John has moved across the river.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 1/7/2019 5:12:05 PM >

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 823

RE: September 22 1942 - 1/7/2019 9:46:55 PM

Bif1961

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The British Air Defense network stations/HQs were developed and in place before they had RADAR,so it is a partial chicken and egg discussion to say did the stations make RADAR better or that RADAR added to the already existing early warning stations making every thing that much better. What RADAR allowed the British to do was be warned not minutes before an attack but while they were still over France giving them far more time to organize their fighter counter attack then with the previous sound and visual based system, which had to wait until they were seen or heard many times already over English territory. Those 10-20 minutes, that RADAR warning gave was the difference over the previous sound and visual early warning system.

< Message edited by Bif1961 -- 1/7/2019 10:13:09 PM >

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Post #: 824

RE: September 22 1942 - 1/7/2019 10:11:42 PM

Bif1961

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The Pacific war was out of balance at the beginning in Japan's favor, because they had been at war and planning for this conflict for some time. Their experience levels were much higher and their equipment was on par if not superior to Allied equipment. As to the number of ships, which was near balanced the Allied navies were far flung and unsupportable of each other and the Japanese had the advantage on interior lines and number of operational carriers with the best fighter for the first year of the war. So the war starts out of balance and no one is seeking equity there but when you give one side wonder weapons when they are already in a position of advantage it unbalances the game even further. Some have pointed out, rightly in many cases, that the Japanese player doesn't stick it out as the Allied juggernaught gets the historic material advantages brought by their engineering and industrial base. Some do and cudos to them, but imagine the Allied players frustrations to have survived the enhanced Japanese onslaught only to have the game end when the tables finally turn, probably much later than mid-1944. I am not critizing mods as I am sure your opponent agreed to the game but wondering if you give one side a weapon that was a historic gooney-bird and turned into a wonder weapon, like the B-29 was it would be sporting if the Allied player ad an addition as well that might be used against this new wonder weapon.

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September 23 1942 - 1/8/2019 1:05:50 AM

Anachro

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September 23 1942

I don't think John was expecting me to sweep and bomb Calcutta again today, as my fighters and bombers find no CAP over Calcutta and little over Howrah. In two days of air battles, the number of Japanese fighters at Calcutta has been reduced from 220 to 11. The airfield at Calcutta is in shambles; tomorrow we will bomb Howrah. The days of Japanese air power on the Indian subcontinent are numbers; around Calcutta, Japanese airpower is almost non-existent. A Japanese cruiser force appears at North Male. Wonder what that is. The air losses for the day would have been greatly in my favor, but the Vindy's in Australia flew without their escorts.

Elsewhere, lots of heavy radio traffic at Truk. An American sub misses a CA in the Marshalls. Meanwhile, my 4Es on Australia are bombing John's divisions that landed at Normanton and this has been the result for the past 2 days. John seems to be moving his troops along the roads towards Portland Roads, etc. That's a long way to go while subjecting himself to 4E bombing raids.

Morning Air attack on 60th/C Division, at 86,138 (Normanton)

quote:

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 6
LB-30 Liberator x 8
B-24D Liberator x 20

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
384 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 32 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 826

RE: September 22 1942 - 1/9/2019 12:00:15 AM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

@everyone Some good discussion going on above. Regarding the mod, I think that if John's goal is to stick close to some probably form of Japanese R&D and ship development in a non-treaty world run by Yamamoto, he has a bit to go in that regard in making his choices plausible. I am under no illusions about the mod strengthening Japan, indeed that is its goal, but as with the Liz thought has to be put into the sacrifices necessary to achieve those changes and variations from Japan's historical development. I haven't looked into it, but, for instance, what are the sacrifices to be made in regards to developing a Jack or George model that is viable for carrier operations? Are they currently worse than their land-based counterparts or the same in technical specifications? Should they have somewhat worse specifications? Was it even possible to make a George work on a carrier? I think some more thought needs to be put into questions like this.

However, at the same time, I'm perfectly fine with make Japan stronger and giving her new toys and moving R&D around, etc. It's just I want it to make a little more sense, at least in my eyes. I think this is a harsh criticism from me, perhaps too harsh as I'd need to extensively study the changes and thought processes behind them to really say whether or not this is the case. I haven't done so, so take my view with a grain of salt.

Cannot but agree with every word here and I'm sure John Cochrane would as well;

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 827

September 24 1942 - 1/9/2019 3:18:15 AM

Anachro

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September 24 1942

I attack Howrah today and destroy another 30 planes on the ground and in the air. Airfield damage at Calcutta is listed at 100 and ~50 at Howrah. The number of fighters seen left in total for both those airfields is around 3-5 fighters in total. Japanese airpower is severely degraded, practically non-existent around Calcutta. That sad, we have destroyed mostly fighters and John's bombers still exist somewhere. Meanwhile, a CS/Cruiser force appears mysteriously around Addu. Is this another carrier raid?

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 828

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/9/2019 3:21:27 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961
So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon

Is a balance so important really? The game itself is in no way balanced and never was, and that is one of the reasons we love it. Some shiny toys with a bit of fantasy mixed in here and there would not change the final fate of Japan. E.g. I can imagine some alternative history mod where Japan did everything right before the war (well, except waking the sleeping giant that is), quelled its faction struggle, made some tech breakthroughs/purchases.. And still lost in the end.

Again and again: the key is NOT to do the Pearl Harbor raid. The reaction allowed the U. S. to mobilize with a speed and on a scale which probably would have caused impeachments otherwise. (Note that in WWI, the industrial base was only partly ramped up -- there were no American-made combat aircraft or tanks deployed into battle.) If you want realism, the idea is not more Japanese toys but fewer American ones.

And let's face it, the battleships taken out at Pearl were already obsolete. Had the USN tried to engage the IJN, the KB would have sunk them at sea.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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Post #: 829

RE: September 24 1942 - 1/9/2019 6:56:07 AM

BBfanboy

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Didn't John use his CS TF to try and bait your carriers into a battle once before, with KB lurking nearby?
Either that or he is just hunting your convoys coming on-map from Capetown.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 830

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/9/2019 1:15:25 PM

Wuffer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

And let's face it, the battleships taken out at Pearl were already obsolete. Had the USN tried to engage the IJN, the KB would have sunk them at sea.

Exactly my thoughts. An epic disaster of unthinkable consequences if went really bad...

Regarding the Liz, what about the use as a search plane? I'm a complete noob, but in my simple mind I could imagine a strategic impact here if possible?

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 831

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/11/2019 2:44:23 AM

Bif1961

Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline

However, you ignored that if they don't attack PH they attack manila, which is US territory and would cause the Congress to declare war. To go down the road you suggest, less US industrial ramp up, then the Japanese player would have to attack the Dutch and British Empire territory. that then would lead to a political struggle in the US between isolationists controlled Congress and war leaning administration which may have lead to a longer period before we finally entered the war on the allied side, or what was left of it. However, when the Japanese player doesn't bomb PH with the KB they bomb Manila and the rest of PI so that would still trigger the US declaration of war and not change the ramp up of our industrial base. Ignoring that Lend-leas and it's fore runner cash and carry was already doing that and the administrations works programs had already put many of the designs that would win the war already into prototype production or on the ways in the shipyards. I have proposed this very scenario, the Japanese don't attack any US territory and therefore the Americans cannot enter the war until 3 months or that 100+ VPs in accidental loses on the US side at the hands of the Japanese, i.e., Lanikai or Panay type incidence.

In regards to what would have happened if the US Pacific Fleet sallied forth from PH and confronted the KB what the outcome would have been. This has been war gamed by the Naval Academy and the outcome was 3-4 US BBs sunk at sea. therefore no chance of raising them like they were when sunk in PH with the rest being damaged and retreated to PH with slight damage to the KB. The biggest change is that the KB loses much more of it's AC then the 29 they actually lost in the historic PH attack.

< Message edited by Bif1961 -- 1/11/2019 2:56:04 AM >

(in reply to Wuffer)

Post #: 832

RE: September 21 1942 - 1/11/2019 12:11:05 PM

Bearcat2

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline

If the Japanese attack the Philippines; Germany declares war on the US; the result is the same as far as industrial production is concerned. The War Production Board [WPB] was established in Jan 42'; combining the the previous Supply Priorities and Allocation Board and the Office of Production Management, was the key to US wartime production.

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(in reply to Bif1961)

Post #: 833

September 25-27 1942 - 1/17/2019 4:05:06 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

September 25-27 1942

Sorry, I haven't logged in in the past week. I've been traveling and thus a little too busy to do updates to this AAR, as well as switch turns with John. However, in the few that we have done, a lot of potential action seems to be building up. First, two turns ago I spotted what looked like a good portion of the KB heading for Palmyra. On the 26th, I spotted a surface fleet accompanying the KB, and on the 27th Japanese surface ships bombarded Palmyra. This means that John could potentially be planning an invasion of Palmyra, simply destroying my PBY's there (for a lot of fuel expense), or this could be a distraction for an invasion elsewhere. If he does invade Palmyra, he'll find my garrison weak as I have been letting my defenses lapse stupidly, dragging units elsewhere in preparation as I though the John invasions were over, but I guess John's invasions are never over as Canoerebel might attest to.

If John does take Palmyra, it'll give him greater eyes over my fleets from Pearl and a decent size 5 port, but strategically for me it's not a huge issue as I have not been using Palmyra to move my supply convoys. Furthermore, Palmyra is decently isolated from his other bases that it can be pressured pretty easily from Pearl and broken down. It would be a trap for forces stationed there in my opinion. For these reasons, I'm perhaps hoping he chooses another target, but we'll see. Funnily enough, my Pearl carriers were moving down to Tahiti as this was going on and 5 CV's and 2 CVLs are only 20 hexes northeast of Palmyra. Maybe there is potential for a strike here if he moves his carriers away.

His target could be Christmas Island, which would make more sense to me; and that is the direction his Kb seems to be hovering towards. Xmas Island has a 3 airfield and 2 port.

One reason John might move his carriers though perhaps a far-fetched one? I still have carriers operating in the SoPac area that can hit his units if he doesn't defend them. For the last couple of days John had a convoy with CLs, DDs, and AKs/AMCs operating at Ndeni and I had been able to approach them undetected from the southeast. Sadly, they moved back to Lunga last turn but because I knew where John's CV's were, I elected to move up towards Lunga with my carriers. The result was a nice little strike that most definitely sank a few DDs as well as a Sendai-class cruiser. The real gem is the CL Kitakami, which could very well sink from her fires. The next day shows no shops at sea, but some (3) ships in port identified as xAKs.

Not sure what I'll do. Could elect to do a port strike but I bet John puts every fighter he has on Lunga. I'll probably retire this turn. As a cherry on top, a sub sank a Japanese destroyer escorting some AO's by Kusaie Island, southwest of Kwajalein.

In India, Japanese air bases are significantly degraded, showing high rates of damage. John�s fighter force, if not wiped out, is almost virtually so.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 1/17/2019 4:07:11 PM >

(in reply to Bearcat2)

Post #: 834

RE: September 25-27 1942 - 1/17/2019 4:48:40 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

I bet John's hair is coming out by the handful

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(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 835

RE: September 25-27 1942 - 1/18/2019 3:33:44 AM

Capt. Harlock

Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

The result was a nice little strike that most definitely sank a few DDs

Awww . . . you were mean to poor lil' Fubuki-chan . . .

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 836

September 28 1942 - 1/18/2019 7:13:50 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

September 28 1942

Last turn I noticed a small convoy with 5/7 detection off the coast of Bombay and thinking something was afoot posted CAP at Bombay just in case. There was something to it and a mini-KB appears off the western coast of India and Bombay and sinks 2 xAKs and a PC. Funnily enough, John launched a strike with a bunch of LIZ's at Bombay in the same turn and my CAP managed to down around 60 Japanese heavy bombers. The worrying thing is that I have 2 CLs upgrading in Bombay with 3 DDs for escort. 1 CL is a day away from repairing, the other is 6 days. I can probably post heavy CAP but I would bet John strikes as he has Bombay on 9/10 DL and knows the ships are there.

In other news, John's main KB remains hovering off of Palmyra and Christmas Island and his same BC-backed surface force bombards Christmas Island this turn. My surface and naval air forces gather northeast of Palmyra. Meanwhile, a Japanese tanker hits minefield I laid outside of Balikpapan.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 837

September 29 1942 - 1/19/2019 5:04:03 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

September 29 1942

No time to post pictures at the moment, but I will give a brief update. John moves his carriers in India up and hits a convoy carrying the British Motor Brigade, which I had forgotten had been moving off map from Aden and the fact that John and I have switched not as many turns as we normally would (my fault) doesn't help. Only 1 xAK sinks today but more might sink tomorrow. They are close enough that there is a small chance I can save a number of the brigade by moving full speed back off map. We'll see. This has happened to me before where I completely forget a convoy is moving on map only for them to appear on map the same day John moves his carriers within range of them.

However, I am very enthused by the results in the air in India. With John's air force decimated for the time being, my bombers are getting nice attrition against John's ground forces. John seems to be pulling back en masse from Asanol. I am beginning an offensive forward. Likewise, in Australia, my 2E's and 4E's are doing nicely in ground attack against his forces that landed at Normanton.

In the Pacific, John's carriers move west from Palmyra and I am getting hopefuly of reinforcing Christmas and Palmyra with regiments, which are already 1-2 days away on convoys. Troops are also moving to reinforce Tahiti. Suva, Noumea, and Luganville are all well-garrisoned.

I am amassing a large number of troops and planes at Auckland...

< Message edited by Anachro -- 1/19/2019 5:17:53 PM >

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 838

RE: September 29 1942 - 1/21/2019 8:01:05 AM

CaptBeefheart

Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline

Wow, over 60 Lizzes downed. I guess those birds aren't as tough as expected. What did you have defending at Bombay?

Cheers,
CB

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(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 839

October 4 1942 - 1/24/2019 7:19:24 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

October 4 1942

With John's airforce crippled for the time being in India, I have been pounding his forces in the clear terrain daily at Asanol, getting good results of 100-400 casualties per bombing run. As a result, John has pulled back his forces from Asanol, with his artillery pulling out first followed by his divisions. Last turn, given the positive results of my bombardments, I launched a deliberate attack. Unfortunately, 3 of 4 Japanese divisions moved a hex southeast during the turn. Fortunately, one stayed behind and got mauled by my troops. Over the next few turns, my forces will pursue the three remaining divisions which will remain under air bombardment.

I have to be mindful of John's CAP potential and am paying attention to fighter strength and airfield repair at John's nearby airfields.However, the last 2-3 days have seen the air loss ratio at about a 2 or 3:1 ratio in my favor.

quote:

Ground combat at Asansol (53,34)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 47519 troops, 754 guns, 537 vehicles, Assault Value = 1351

Defending force 12918 troops, 104 guns, 26 vehicles, Assault Value = 409

Allied adjusted assault: 814

Japanese adjusted defense: 51

Allied assault odds: 15 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
5350 casualties reported
Squads: 143 destroyed, 127 disabled
Non Combat: 73 destroyed, 50 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 17 disabled
Guns lost 37 (10 destroyed, 27 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (4 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Allied ground losses:
843 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 64 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
53rd (Sep) Infantry Regiment
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
16th Australian Brigade
87th Mountain Regiment
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
46th Indian Brigade
632nd Tank Destroyer Battalion
44th Indian Brigade
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
40th Infantry Division
Sarawak Force
Tenth USAAF
104th RAF Base Force
56th Coastal Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Regiment
134th Field Artillery Battalion
26th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
20th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
223 Group Base Force
2/2nd Hy AA Regiment
77th Heavy AA Regiment
222 Group Base Force
2nd Peshawar Base Force
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
38th Base Group
24th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
3rd ISF Base Force

Defending units:
67th Division

In the South Pacific, the unkillable CVL Ryukaku makes an appearance near Tabiteuea where it meets a submarine. My submarine manages to hit it with the torpedo, but the torpedo fails to explode. Oh well.

quote:

Sub attack near Arorae at 140,136

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryukaku
BC Ishitaka
CA Yoshino
CA Miyako
CL Teshio
CS Poroshiri
DD Makigumo
DD Susuzuki
DD Hibiki
DD Tamanami
DD Naganami
DD Takanami

Allied Ships
SS Trigger

SS Trigger launches 4 torpedoes at CVL Ryukaku
Trigger diving deep ....