Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell

To be fair, I think the main benefit of those upgrades (beyond turning it into a CLAA) is the radar. And unlike the IJN you aren't that starved for radars, even though every bit helps.

Those Bofors and Oerlikons look pretty and inflate the ingame AA rating of the ship, their practical use is really limited though, as they won't fire unless the ship itself is attacked. In the usual fleet composition where a CLAA will be present, bombers will most likely not aim for the CLAA but the more juicy targets. So what really matters are the radar and the DP guns (they fire defensively for regardless which ship of the fleet is attacked).

But generally, when you are having the decision between "adding some more pewpews on the CLAA now" and "escort a relevant fleet" I would also side with the escort mission and leave the upgrade to some down time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Those Bofors and Oerlikons look pretty and inflate the ingame AA rating of the ship, their practical use is really limited though, as they won't fire unless the ship itself is attacked. In the usual fleet composition where a CLAA will be present, bombers will most likely not aim for the CLAA but the more juicy targets. So what really matters are the radar and the DP guns (they fire defensively for regardless which ship of the fleet is attacked).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
In game terms shipborne AAA works the following way:

There are 3 phases of AA fire: Inbound, attack run, outbound.

On the inbound and outbound leg the AA weapons fire against the set strike alt. So if the raid is incoming at 12k, only weapons 12k+ ceiling can fire at the a/c. BUT, in these phases all AA weapons of a TF may contribute to the defense (with certain penalties tied to TF size).

On attack run the planes drop to weapon release alt (200ft for TB, 1-4k for DB, level bombers obviously stay at the set alt) and in case the alt is lower than the weapons´ max ceiling can also be engaged by the shorter range point defense weapons. But in this phase only the AA weapons of the ship under direct attack fire at the planes.


The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Found this post from LoBaron on the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
In game terms shipborne AAA works the following way:

There are 3 phases of AA fire: Inbound, attack run, outbound.

On the inbound and outbound leg the AA weapons fire against the set strike alt. So if the raid is incoming at 12k, only weapons 12k+ ceiling can fire at the a/c. BUT, in these phases all AA weapons of a TF may contribute to the defense (with certain penalties tied to TF size).

On attack run the planes drop to weapon release alt (200ft for TB, 1-4k for DB, level bombers obviously stay at the set alt) and in case the alt is lower than the weapons´ max ceiling can also be engaged by the shorter range point defense weapons. But in this phase only the AA weapons of the ship under direct attack fire at the planes.


The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
This had been a repeated topic in a number of IJN threads about the value of certain DD upgrades.

And conclusion was always: DP guns are godly, the ingame AA rating is useless for escorts but only matters for the big target ships. Don't upgrade your ship if you lose DP guns for pewpews. It is nice, that Anachro actually found one of the original posts about the topic though. This one clarifies it quite well.

If somehow the opponent feels like low level bombers are a thing, those Bofors/Oerlikons do something as escort defense. But in your usual engagement they are pointless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
This had been a repeated topic in a number of IJN threads about the value of certain DD upgrades.

And conclusion was always: DP guns are godly, the ingame AA rating is useless for escorts but only matters for the big target ships. Don't upgrade your ship if you lose DP guns for pewpews. It is nice, that Anachro actually found one of the original posts about the topic though. This one clarifies it quite well.

If somehow the opponent feels like low level bombers are a thing, those Bofors/Oerlikons do something as escort defense. But in your usual engagement they are pointless.

This is different from your original erroneous statement. Nobody disputes that 5inch DPs are the main AA asset you have as Allies. Because they really were, with their ceiling, tracking and proximity fuses. Bottomline of LoBaron's post is that TF AA contributes in 2 phases out of 3. While yours was that TF does not contribute outside of attacked ship if no DPs. See the difference?

quote:

The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.

quote:

The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?

quote:

TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Mine hits 1

quote:

TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
DD Yugiri, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

quote:

TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
DD Yugiri, heavy damage
DD Shirayuki
DD Inazuma

6 mines cleared

quote:

TF 185 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

6 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
DMS W-12, Shell hits 2, on fire
DMS W-11, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Hibiki, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Bingo Maru, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
16 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.

quote:

The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?

Methinks you pull wrong conclusion out of the LoBaron's "usually".
Anyway, I've tested it just now to clear the misconception.
On a naked map with 3 Vals coming in on 10k attacking a TF of Lexington stripped of his planes + 6 Omahas. No other planes except 41k flying navsearch to have DL on the US TF.
Bottomline: all of Omahas fired their 6000 ceiling Bofors, and even some of their 4000 ceiling 20mm. Which should not've been possible if AAA fire only on planes atacking the ship - there are 3 planes and 7 ships. Case closed

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.

quote:

The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?

Methinks you pull wrong conclusion out of the LoBaron's "usually".
Anyway, I've tested it just now to clear the misconception.
On a naked map with 3 Vals coming in on 10k attacking a TF of Lexington stripped of his planes + 6 Omahas. No other planes except 41k flying navsearch to have DL on the US TF.
Bottomline: all of Omahas fired their 6000 ceiling Bofors, and even some of their 4000 ceiling 20mm. Which should not've been possible if AAA fire only on planes atacking the ship - there are 3 planes and 7 ships. Case closed

Wait: did they dive? What the difference gradient between 40mm and 127 mm in ammo usage?

quote:

1/Imperial Guards Division is planning for an attack on Vizagapatnam.

quote:

Morning Air attack on Balikpapan , at 64,97

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 27

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Syoto Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Kiso Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Kyokko Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Zuiko Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Kinkai Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Keihuku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Izumo, Bomb hits 1
DD Yugiri, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Bengal Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Jinshu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Toyu Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Kuritake Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Seizan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Ryuzin Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

quote:

Ground combat at Singkawang (56,88)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 2607 troops, 12 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 68

Defending force 4546 troops, 36 guns, 17 vehicles, Assault Value = 85

Japanese adjusted assault: 41

Allied adjusted defense: 75

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
150 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
16th Naval Guard Unit

Defending units:
Sarawak Force
W Borneo KNIL Battalion
W Borneo Mil'ie Cdo
2/15 Punjab Battalion
2e-VLG-I Sup Afd
1e-VLG-V Sup Afd
Singkawang ML Base Force
106th RN Base Force

quote:

ight Time Surface Combat, near Ocean Island at 132,126, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Shonan Maru #8
xAKL Toyotsu Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Nitiyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Penang Maru, Shell hits 4
xAK Uji Maru, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Worden
DD MacDonough

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Jan 19-20 1942

The last two days I send some DD raiders to get some undefended cargo units spotted south of Kwajalein where they manage to hit one in the night and cause some minor damage. They will try to hit some more as they head home. John is also recon'ing Baker Island, either to see if I have stuff there or maybe to eventually take it so he can do deep patrols into my SoPac trade routes.

quote:

ight Time Surface Combat, near Ocean Island at 132,126, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Shonan Maru #8
xAKL Toyotsu Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Nitiyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Penang Maru, Shell hits 4
xAK Uji Maru, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Worden
DD MacDonough

In the DEI, I send the Dutch bombers to bomb Singapore from Singkawang. Hopefully, they actually manage to fly and find an undefended port. We'll see.