Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

If you are trying to conserve IL-2s by leaving the panzers with their AA compliment to the U-2s, my question is why? The IL2M3 alone will have a total production run of something like thirty thousand. You can't run out of them unless you lose the factories early on. The only thing that you really save are trucks. You noted you want like 140-160 IL-2 regiments. You can in fact go higher than that, but again, it will eat more trucks than a U-2VS. That is the only advantage I can see. And as another option you could use level bombers which don't take as many losses against panzers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
1st, actually it is ALL hexes are stacked 3 high in Leningrad. With all the hexes in and around Leningrad filled with units any attack by the Germans would route the Soviet unit to the east instead of into Leningrad proper. Thus freeing them from the pot if you will. Any unit hungry German would not want to attack to lose a "juicy" morsel ;-) Since I had the front line stacked with large defense values and after Brians first attack sending the first set of 3 units far to the east it looks like he made the decision to cut off Leningrad proper. He wanted to force surrender all the units I guess. If he pursued a direct frontal assault all of those Guard units and units in general would 100% route to the east. So I set it up to go either way. With few towns in the north those units route way to the East on to a rail hex normally. Once they rally they are ready to go south

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
2nd, Many of those units in the rear were brigades set at 70% and division set at 20% TOE along with some AT Brigades set at 20%. If Brian wanted to cut off the ports these units can do one of two things. They can be ported out quickly being under 300 capacity OR they can be used to bring a front line division back up to full strength. Matter fact all units that are killed I use as replacement brigades/Divisions to my other Divisions on the map. It is a nifty replacement system once set up correctly. Many of these 20% TOE replacement divisions are nearing 40 experience so not much of an experience hit either :)

This replacement system is an excellent way to keep an offense going. You really only have to worry about the fatigue since you replace back to full every turn. I now have division at 20%, 30%, and 40% TOE in key areas of attacks. I do the same thing for my Armor Corps. Every Turn they are full strength.

Not to mention this is how you can get your Armor Corps high in Experience pretty quickly. Yes, when you convert 3 armor brigades into an Armor Corps your experience goes through the floor. Now if you take the corps and add in your top experienced armor brigades you start to quickly bring that experience up. I guess I should stop giving out too much information :(

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3rd, There was an opportunity to use the 6 Cav Corps to try and do an offense towards Finland. Finlands border with Leningrad was only guarded by Regiments. Instead I decided to use them just to cause loses to the Germans. I have pretty much shunned attacking any other nationality besides the Germans until turn 53. (I should have tried Finland, that would have been interesting to say the least. But kind of defeated my purpose of inflicting loses on Germans)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

As for giving out information, you and I seem to look at this game from two different perspectives. If all you want t do is to win, by all means hoard your tips and tricks and use them over and over again. If you want to improve your own gameplay, share your insights and seek out the challenge of having to continously improve to stayy on top.

quote:

Before I head out to work I wanted to touch base on just this little snippet. I believe we are on the same page. I know that I have given to this community more information or tricks or just brought to the forefront many items.

1. The air campaign is important part of the game. Up to the time I started posting the wisdom was that Air was not necessary to win the game
2. Super Lvov pocket mainstreamed. I did not invent it, but I perfected it.
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)
4. Retreat priorities
5. The effects of fatigue
6. AA is not static and is a movable object
7. Opening defense Strat towards Leningrad for the Soviets
8. Destruction of the German Air arm as a strat

By all means this is not an exhaustive list, I am just out of time to post and need to drive to work. What I am trying to say is that I have helped more than you have realized. Just too many tips at once is a bad thing. If I wanted to keep them to my self I would have never posted any at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I believe some of the points can be challenged. Note I do not want to imply ill will on your side as there are very many war in the East posts on the internet. I have read many old WitE posts (more than I am proud of) so I think I will chime in.

quote:

Before I head out to work I wanted to touch base on just this little snippet. I believe we are on the same page. I know that I have given to this community more information or tricks or just brought to the forefront many items.

1. The air campaign is important part of the game. Up to the time I started posting the wisdom was that Air was not necessary to win the game
2. Super Lvov pocket mainstreamed. I did not invent it, but I perfected it.
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)
4. Retreat priorities
5. The effects of fatigue
6. AA is not static and is a movable object
7. Opening defense Strat towards Leningrad for the Soviets
8. Destruction of the German Air arm as a strat

By all means this is not an exhaustive list, I am just out of time to post and need to drive to work. What I am trying to say is that I have helped more than you have realized. Just too many tips at once is a bad thing. If I wanted to keep them to my self I would have never posted any at all.

1. When was this considered to be the case? Just one example of many: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4138183 or even older in chaos45 AAR: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3871507&mpage=4&key=
2. You were the first Super Lvov player to draw entire 2nd PG South. Makes super Lvov less messy, but you need to sacrify some results in the centre.
Not a reply to you as it was not your point but still interesting, I earliest super Lvov I know is from MichaelT, although I think there was not yet the movement penalty to regiments in June 1941: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3075748
3. I am surprised MichaelT said this as in the AARs one can see both use of PG 4 for the T3-5 offensive in the center and more weigh on Moscow than for example in Peltons AARs. Of course I do not know every post, though "ridiculed" is a pretty strong word.
4. True I think, but only if you exclude German wargamer forums, but of course it is a bit unfair to count them as only a small minority speaks German.
5. Agree, important thing I learned from your posts.
6. How do you mean this? When you mean that AA can and should be moved around according to needs and used consistently, I think it is/was standard procedure for people who like to use their support units actively.
7. I disagree on the strategy part. Runaway defence and hard defence of Leningrad early on I recall was also something Flavius tried out. Your original content of course is the tactical deployment as described in your AAR.
8. Definitely not. For example, this post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3487196

A thing you did not list is drowning the Axis fighters in ground support escort missions and using the magical training effect of ground support escort/fight for the fighter experience, which I learned from you. Edit: And the rail plan, double teaming is old but you squeezed out a bit more than people before.

That should not distract from the fact that I have huge respect for your WitE skills, only the list is not correct in the form. It is unfortunate you never faced MichaelT, I would love to see the AAR and am not sure how to place my bets. But it was not to be :-(

Regarding keeping secrets or not, I think there is nothing wrong with not posting your findings regarding the game machine unless they are outright exploits which should be posted/emailed for morvael to fix, although it is not my way, but I find both ok.

quote:

I know that I have given to this community more information or tricks or just brought to the forefront many items

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Before I head out to work I wanted to touch base on just this little snippet. I believe we are on the same page. I know that I have given to this community more information or tricks or just brought to the forefront many items.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Glad you have joined the U2VS fan club.




Regards
EvK

You may consider yourself under arrest, Comrade General Armii. You were going to a position in the Far East, but now it's a show trial and twenty years hard labor at a rehabilitation camp.

I know I know, I am guilty. Take me away please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

I have made the decision to not post much on your AAR, as I have been giving out a few thoughts on BrianG's version. I don't want to come across as an armchair general who reads one AAR in order to move to the other to give some "insights", and then return to the first one.

That being said, I have had much the same thoughts on stopping to write my AAR's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

I began writing AAR's in the hope that they could spark some discussions on the game, and that I could actually learn something from this. Instead it seems I often post four AAR's or more in a row with no meaningfull feedback. There are no questions forcing me to look at my strategy from another perspective, there are no comments presenting me with a perspective other than my own and there is generally no comments at all. All in all, I probably spend an hour or two on every AAR and learn absolutely nothing in return. IT is a very valid question to ask if it is simply not just a waste of time to write them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
1st, actually it is ALL hexes are stacked 3 high in Leningrad. With all the hexes in and around Leningrad filled with units any attack by the Germans would route the Soviet unit to the east instead of into Leningrad proper. Thus freeing them from the pot if you will. Any unit hungry German would not want to attack to lose a "juicy" morsel ;-) Since I had the front line stacked with large defense values and after Brians first attack sending the first set of 3 units far to the east it looks like he made the decision to cut off Leningrad proper. He wanted to force surrender all the units I guess. If he pursued a direct frontal assault all of those Guard units and units in general would 100% route to the east. So I set it up to go either way. With few towns in the north those units route way to the East on to a rail hex normally. Once they rally they are ready to go south

Not sure I like this approach. Retreat casualties are increased for routing over long distances, and losing 50% of two divisions is pretty much the same as losing one whole division in my view. What sort of rout losses do you take in the north? Yes, I relaize that the remains will fill up faster and train back to combat level quicker when the unit is retained, but you do have two units to retrain rather than one, so the total amount of time lost might not be very different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
2nd, Many of those units in the rear were brigades set at 70% and division set at 20% TOE along with some AT Brigades set at 20%. If Brian wanted to cut off the ports these units can do one of two things. They can be ported out quickly being under 300 capacity OR they can be used to bring a front line division back up to full strength. Matter fact all units that are killed I use as replacement brigades/Divisions to my other Divisions on the map. It is a nifty replacement system once set up correctly. Many of these 20% TOE replacement divisions are nearing 40 experience so not much of an experience hit either :)

This replacement system is an excellent way to keep an offense going. You really only have to worry about the fatigue since you replace back to full every turn. I now have division at 20%, 30%, and 40% TOE in key areas of attacks. I do the same thing for my Armor Corps. Every Turn they are full strength.

Not to mention this is how you can get your Armor Corps high in Experience pretty quickly. Yes, when you convert 3 armor brigades into an Armor Corps your experience goes through the floor. Now if you take the corps and add in your top experienced armor brigades you start to quickly bring that experience up. I guess I should stop giving out too much information :(

Smart. I haven't thought of that. It does seem rather "gamey" however. Merging formations like this should certainly spend all MP on the merged divisions and require that no MP was spent prior to the merging. The Germans were able to form Kampfgruppen at a moments notice, but not the Soviets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3rd, There was an opportunity to use the 6 Cav Corps to try and do an offense towards Finland. Finlands border with Leningrad was only guarded by Regiments. Instead I decided to use them just to cause loses to the Germans. I have pretty much shunned attacking any other nationality besides the Germans until turn 53. (I should have tried Finland, that would have been interesting to say the least. But kind of defeated my purpose of inflicting loses on Germans)

Bear in mind that once Leningrad falls the Finns will be out of the POW camp and back in the game. If nothing else, they can replace German units on the northernmost stretch of the front and thus help strengthening the Wehrmacht. With the risk of losing Leningrad, I believe you have to reevaluate the strategic importance of the Finns.

Same thing with the other Axis Minors. I tend not to seperate them to much from the Germans, as they can raplace German units on the frontline. The better shape they are in, the better a job they can do.

Incidentally, what are your current success criteria for this game?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hyla, I enjoy reading your AARs very much.

I think it was you that mentioned a work around for the Soviets slow experience gain, which would be detailed in and AAR??? Please?

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Glad you have joined the U2VS fan club.




Regards
EvK

You may consider yourself under arrest, Comrade General Armii. You were going to a position in the Far East, but now it's a show trial and twenty years hard labor at a rehabilitation camp.

I know I know, I am guilty. Take me away please.

I was actually referring to EvK.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)

I'm not sure I agree with this or, rather, that it needs to be put in correct context. I can't say which version you were playing or when you had this conversation, but during the time I was playing around 2014/2015 (around the same time that I know Pelton for one had this view) with versions 1.07 and before, what Pelton and Michael T were saying was absolutely 100% true. Given a competent SHC play, it was nearly impossible for the Germans to take both Lenningrad and Moscow. Rather, the Soviets could pretty much decide between the North (Len) Center, and South that they weren't going to let the Germans drive there and they could stop them. So if the Russians decided they wanted to hold Lenningrad or Moscow, they could, but often at the expense of the other. From what I've been reading under more current versions of the game, taking both happens far more than it should or did previously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I have been playing since WITE released(Fire in the East & Scorched Earth board games before that). Granted I never posted on the forums even under my old alias's. But I can say emphatically that both cities could be taken even in most patches before 1.08 where the workings were even more Pro German with the supply system and the air drops. The only rule inhibiting this was the +1 Soviet attack which would require just a bit of different play style to accomplish.

There is nothing wrong with their view(Pelton/MT). I just never catered to it since much of what Pelton was stressing back then was Souths industry. It is a good strategy, just not mine. To me it has always been about "manpower". Without men there is no one to man the items the factories make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I have been playing since WITE released(Fire in the East & Scorched Earth board games before that). Granted I never posted on the forums even under my old alias's. But I can say emphatically that both cities could be taken even in most patches before 1.08 where the workings were even more Pro German with the supply system and the air drops. The only rule inhibiting this was the +1 Soviet attack which would require just a bit of different play style to accomplish.

There is nothing wrong with their view(Pelton/MT). I just never catered to it since much of what Pelton was stressing back then was Souths industry. It is a good strategy, just not mine. To me it has always been about "manpower". Without men there is no one to man the items the factories make.

Ahh, Scorched Earth. You truly are a masochist. For my east front boardgames, I tended to stick with lighter fare such as AH's Russian Front and before that The Russian Campaign. Would be interesting to try playing those on Vassal now so the cat can't destroy 2 months playing......

I miss boardgames. Now the only ones I play (and I haven't for a few years now) are Advanced Squad Leader and for a break the Line of Battle Series of ACW games on vassal. ASL is my first love, but I get too addicted to it at the expense of just about everything and need to quit every several years for a few years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Loved AH games too. Wore the counters out on my “The Russian Campaign” game. In the end I had 3 copies with two of those copies with badly worn out counters ;-) (now where did I put my 3rd Stuka counter!!!!!). Absolutely loved Squad leader (original) and made the transition to Advanced Squad leader with its encyclopidea size rule book ;-P. Had many many many fun hours playing people those games in the US Marine Corps. Ok lets Prep fire, advancing fire, defensive fire.... gawd the memories. But still my two favorite has been AH Longest Day and Fire In the East/Scorched Earth. Something about monster games makes me all excited ;-).