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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany

 
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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/8/2018 5:12:41 PM   
nnason


Posts: 502
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		Sugar,
I completely agree the most important point is a balanced "game." In that light with no changes to the current rules, if you played yourself using your Axis and Allied strategies who would win "Axis Sugar" or "Allied Sugar" or would the game end in a draw?

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Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 31
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/8/2018 7:02:32 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		I'd rather wait for the outcomes of my games against Fafnir, an opponent from elder Battlefront days I never was able to beat iirc.

I fear there's a new sheriff in town, and I'm trusting his judgement more than my own.

(in reply to nnason)
Post #: 32
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/8/2018 7:33:06 PM   
Dorky8

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

I'd rather wait for the outcomes of my games against Fafnir, an opponent from elder Battlefront days I never was able to beat iirc.

I fear there's a new sheriff in town, and I'm trusting his judgement more than my own.





If you guys could AAR the game it would be greatly appreciated

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 33
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/8/2018 7:41:02 PM   
nnason


Posts: 502
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		I will not give away any of Fafnir's secrets but I am not doing well as the Allies. It is May 41. We will see after the start of Barbarossa how I am doing.

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Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to Dorky8)
Post #: 34
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/8/2018 8:26:37 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

If you guys could AAR the game it would be greatly appreciated


Sorry, no more cheap infos. Going gets tough.

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Post #: 35
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/13/2018 9:19:34 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		Not really that important, enjoy the game

it is a game you know

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Post #: 36
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/14/2018 11:12:41 AM   
Dmondragon75

 

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Status: offline 		Its just a game, still-all of us like to win hehe

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Post #: 37
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/22/2018 7:23:12 PM   
Goodmongo

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 9/22/2011
Status: offline 		You guys should go check out the Gallup polls from that time period. What most people believe just isn't true. By fall of 1941 the US populations was more than willing to enter into a war against Germany. Events like the Reuben James was causing a massive shift. PH was just the icing on the cake. But this was due to what FDR was doing from 1938-1941. The game on the other hand can be viewed as giving money to the republicans to try and win in 1940 elections or at least to Lindbergh to persuade US citizens from getting involved.

So what happened in real life would be the equivalent of UK investing in chits to influence the US and Germany not doing it. Bottom line is letting Germany have the option would not break the unbelievable threshold. Chirchill would need to counter and help FDR to offset it.

As for Hitler DOW'ing the US that makes perfect sense. The US was going to DOW Germany anyway but most likely AFTER sending some massive aid to preposition the equipment. This allowed Germany to strike at oil, supplies and equipment while their focus was in the Pacific. Bottom line is Hitler didn't have a choice. Wait a few months for US to do it when they were ready or to strike first.

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Post #: 38
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/22/2018 9:38:15 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		Everything the Nazi's represented was nauseating to most Americans. The chance of Hitler influencing American diplomacy in mid 1941 is zero.

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Post #: 39
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/22/2018 10:00:04 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Status: offline 		Its one thing to influence Americans to be friendly to Nazism and another entirely to not go to war.

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/22/2018 10:16:33 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline 		Realistic or not, if the US does not enter the war relatively promptly, it is game ending. That is the problem. Does anyone really want to invest a month in a match only to have it end that way? And it is completely random, you get lucky, you win.
Unless you are playing Sugar, but do I really have to say that?


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It's time to wield the blade..

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Post #: 41
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 2:57:52 PM   
Dmondragon75

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/4/2016
Status: offline 		In my game against Sugar I was ignoring his diplo investment on USA soposing ingame mechanics&scripts wouldnt allow much of Nazi diplo success afterPearl Harbour. Ofcoz, it was my mistake not to read manual properly and I cant blame anyone but me for that.
But since this game simulates historical events during the WW2 scripts should be changed defo in update

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Post #: 42
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 3:10:58 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Everything the Nazi's represented was nauseating to most Americans. The chance of Hitler influencing American diplomacy in mid 1941 is zero.


It's not like they would have Hitler doing radio ads. It's giving money to various groups that would want to stay out of the war. I thought that would have been pretty obvious.

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Post #: 43
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 3:24:52 PM   
Dorky8

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo



It's not like they would have Hitler doing radio ads. It's giving money to various groups that would want to stay out of the war. I thought that would have been pretty obvious.





I thought it would be pretty obvious that the US wasn't going to stay out of the European war after Pearl Harbor. Especially after Hitler declared war on them. If you want to go with the Nazi funded US anti war conspiracy theory have fun.


I just prefer games that don't involve uber diplomacy, if others want to play that way I don't care.

If they would put a comment section before PBEM games start one could say no Major Country Diplo it would help find suitable opponents.



< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 10/23/2018 3:26:57 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 4:17:05 PM   
Ktonos

 

Posts: 282
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Status: offline 		Buying US chits can be translated in many ways. I personally see it as investing towards US appeasement policy. Eg, less slave labor or a bit gentler treatment of populations in occupied countries. Meaning less MPPs, less US mob.

But, indeed, what is the disagreement here? As to which option is default? Diplomacy or not? Just agree to click that option off with your opponent.

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Post #: 45
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 4:18:12 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo



It's not like they would have Hitler doing radio ads. It's giving money to various groups that would want to stay out of the war. I thought that would have been pretty obvious.





I thought it would be pretty obvious that the US wasn't going to stay out of the European war after Pearl Harbor. Especially after Hitler declared war on them. If you want to go with the Nazi funded US anti war conspiracy theory have fun.


I just prefer games that don't involve uber diplomacy, if others want to play that way I don't care.

If they would put a comment section before PBEM games start one could say no Major Country Diplo it would help find suitable opponents.




The choice after PH is what to do with Germany. And that choice was dependent on the actions by FDR in 1939-1941. If you go look up the Gallup polls from that time period you will notice that FDR did a very successful campaign in getting the american people to actually want to go to war with Germany even WITHOUT a PH.

So the influence would not be from PH on but in the 1939 -1941 period BEFORE PH. The US would not have used their DD's to help escort British ships. There would be no Reuben James incident. There would have been pressure and MAYBE even FDR wouldn't have been elected in 1940.

Now PH happens but the US was not protecting British convoys. Hitler does not need to DOW the US as he now has a real option of the US staying out of the war in Europe. The US concentrates just against Japan. Remember Churchill convinced FDR to make Germany a priority and not Japan. All of that changes.

How you play or how those you play against want to play is up to you and them. I'm simply arguing that the option to influnce the US to stay out of the war against Germany is historically reasonable. It is not some fantasy and was a real option that Germany never fully pursued in real life.

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Post #: 46
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/23/2018 9:51:59 PM   
Dorky8

 

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Americans despised Hitler and the Nazi's. Americans were isolationists because of WW1 where people like my Grandfather returned from combat and described the horrors. If you would like to go on and think the Nazi's could have significantly impacted US opinion you go ahead.

In this game it is POSSIBLE to drive US & USSR military spending to zero via major country diplomacy. If you think that it is realistic that in 1940-41 the US & USSR would spend 0 on military spending I'm guessing you have a tooth under your pillow.

(in reply to Goodmongo)
Post #: 47
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/24/2018 3:03:21 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8



Americans despised Hitler and the Nazi's. Americans were isolationists because of WW1 where people like my Grandfather returned from combat and described the horrors. If you would like to go on and think the Nazi's could have significantly impacted US opinion you go ahead.



That is a non-sequitur argument. You are NOT selling Hitler. You are selling isolation and not getting involved in a European land war. The diplomacy chit represents money going to various groups in the US such as the one led by Charles Lindbergh. In fact Germany would try to influence the 1940 election and not have FDR reelected. Your argument that Americans wouldn't support Hitler is missing the point totally.

You then compound the error by using another fallacy in argument by equating a game mechanic (MPP) to military spending. So how many infantry and tank division did the US spend and create before PH in 1941 historically?

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Post #: 48
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/24/2018 3:09:32 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
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Status: offline 		Hey look there's the tooth fairy

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Post #: 49
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/24/2018 4:21:00 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Hey look there's the tooth fairy

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


I see. You don't want to debate facts. You prefer just to troll.

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Post #: 50
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/28/2018 9:48:39 PM   
Dorky8

 

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I'm not trolling your entire argument lacks any logic at all. How do you ague it makes sense that the game allows the Axis to push US & USSR military spending (research & troop purchases if you like) to ZERO. Then you argue what military spending is.

The people who didn't want to so to war were not Nazi sympathizers they were isolationists. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor the US was going to war against Japan & Germany.





< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 10/29/2018 9:59:06 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/29/2018 6:38:10 PM   
Goodmongo

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 9/22/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

I'm not trolling your entire argument lacks any logic at all. How do you ague it makes sense that the game allows the Axis to push US & USSR military spending (research & troop purchases if you like) to ZERO. Then you argue what military spending is.

The people who didn't want to so to war were not Nazi sympathizers they were isolationists. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor the US was going to war against Japan & Germany.



You are using the argument that on 12/7/1941 the American people wanted to get into the war against both Germany and Japan. Well yeah. On that day and even for months before they felt that way. But that is like trying to influence the US starting in October 1941 in the game. It's TOO LATE.

You 100% ignore what might have happened if FDR lost in 1940. Why is this? What would have happened if FDR lost in 1940 and therefore never tried to help the UK? THAT is what the diplomacy chits represent. Not that the US citizens become Hitler lovers. It represents a change in foreign policy due to a change in the election. Or at least pressure on FDR to NOT do the things he did.

Now if the US was 100% isolationist then why would you expect huge military spending increases? Heck even with FDR there weren't large increases except for the navy. The army and army air force in late 1941 was inadequate and extremely small.

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/29/2018 6:50:22 PM   
Dmondragon75

 

Posts: 129
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Status: offline 		Public would not allow USA president to keep isolationists afloat with UK /USSR in a real danger of falling, USA was much more democratic those days

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/29/2018 7:04:51 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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Joined: 9/22/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dmondragon75

Public would not allow USA president to keep isolationists afloat with UK /USSR in a real danger of falling, USA was much more democratic those days


May I suggest you go back and read the Gallup polls. The polls can be found online. They tracked the US public opinion about the war and intervention from early 1939 before the war all the way through November 1941 before PH. By the time of the December poll we were already at war so the question wasn't asked.

Looking at the polls provides proof and not just opinion on what the US public wanted or may have wanted.

< Message edited by Goodmongo -- 10/29/2018 7:05:55 PM >

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/29/2018 8:12:22 PM   
Dmondragon75

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/4/2016
Status: offline 		Not that much into the USA pre war history, still I think that public opinion would drastically change with axis succes in Pacific and European theatre on allied side ofcoz. USA passivity would necessary lead to the enormous strenghtening of Japans primary ally-Germany which USA would never allow

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 10/29/2018 9:32:21 PM   
xwormwood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ktonos


The second thing was the Germany and Japan had the tripartite pact which was a defensive pact primarily directed against the USA. Despite Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, it was the US that declared war the next day, activating the pact. This probably was just a justification for reason #1, but in any case things aren't as simple as "he was stupid he did a blunder".


Nope. It was a another gamble from Hitler. He hoped that if he declared war on the USA, Japan would do him the same favour in regard of declaring war on the USSR.

Hitler was a high risk gambler. Declaring war against the USA gave him a short term advantage ("happy days" for the german Subs) and the chance, that Japan might draw russian resources toward the far east. Maybe he even knew in late 1941 that the jig was up, so he went all in.


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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 11/8/2018 9:45:29 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		High risk gambler?


Hitler was a psychotic murderer and a piss poor military leader. His decisions led to the death of millions of people including innocent women and children. In the end some of the greatest harm he did was to the German people who have had to live since the end of the war in the shadow of his despicable acts.


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Post #: 57
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 11/8/2018 10:21:41 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
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Status: offline 		Also, Hitler believed in the stars and the fact that Japan never lost in history. The fact that he declared war on USA was a real big mistake. It probably would of eventually happened, nevertheless, the leaders of this crack pot regime all deserved to be institutionalized. The only one with some reasonable talent was Speer, who was convicted of war crimes, and cheated death by taking blame for atrocities. Even though his underling, Sauckel hung for similar circumstances. Crazy time and criminals of the highest order.

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RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 11/8/2018 10:51:38 PM   
Ktonos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xwormwood


Nope. It was a another gamble from Hitler. He hoped that if he declared war on the USA, Japan would do him the same favour in regard of declaring war on the USSR.

Hitler was a high risk gambler. Declaring war against the USA gave him a short term advantage ("happy days" for the german Subs) and the chance, that Japan might draw russian resources toward the far east. Maybe he even knew in late 1941 that the jig was up, so he went all in.




The message you quoted had #1 reason the fact that DoWing USA would allow subs "happy days".

I doubt Hitler or anyone in the High Command DoWed USA to have a glimpse of hope that Japan would DoW USSR in return. This was never never happening, Japan had a non aggression with USSR, but mostly had no interest, none at all, to open a second front North of China.

Yes, Hitler was a high risk gambler. Totally agree. But no chance he Dowed USA in hopes of Japan dowing USSR.

(in reply to xwormwood)
Post #: 59
RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe pena... - 11/8/2018 10:54:57 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Joined: 3/16/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

High risk gambler?


Hitler was a psychotic murderer and a piss poor military leader. His decisions led to the death of millions of people including innocent women and children. In the end some of the greatest harm he did was to the German people who have had to live since the end of the war in the shadow of his despicable acts.




A psychotic murderer and a high risk gambler aren't mutually exclusive characteristics. In fact I'd say they combine pretty well.

(in reply to Dorky8)
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