Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: rico21

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: rico21

Well, Game of Thrones is about power, power has to be taken, not ask it. So all the whim of why they're going to hit their competitors are secondary.
A prequel series is currently shooting.

warspite1

Well I don't think that is the strength of GoT - which has been more about superb character development, political intrigue, Beeewwwbs, clever plots, and sub-plots, betrayal, madness, intrigue, SSEEEAAANNN BBBEEAANN!!, more beeewwwbs, torture, and of course military action as and when required. The 'whim' i.e. the motivations, of why these characters are fighting, plotting etc is absolutely primary - as it should be.

Well, we have the forums for that!

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given what Daenerys was to the Unsullied and Dothraki I just don’t see how Jon Snow would have survived capture – at least not intact anyway.

And if we ignore the anomaly of the rapidly multiplying numbers, why would the forces ranged against them be that much greater? It would have taken ages to reach King’s Landing. Those troops – mostly survivors of the fight with the NK, have no way of knowing if Drogon has gone for good or just gone to a funeral and will be back for vengeance shortly. Getting together enough men to overwhelm the deadly Dothraki and Unsullied would surely be far from certain?

I take your point about the Dothraki and the Khals. But Daenerys isn’t a Khal. In front of the Dothraki she immolated the Khals and came out of the furnace fully intact. Some of those have seen her do this neat little trick twice. She is surely more a Goddess than a run-of-the-mill Khal?

I would need to go back to the description of the Unsullied, but I suspect they are effectively automatons – that was their training - and they have been freed by the MoD. But as you say, they are led by the MoD’s right hand man, the man besotted with Missandei, and who has seen her executed. On the word of the Queen he was more than happy to continue the fighting after the surrender and to then execute PoW’s without question. I don’t think his character would have thought twice about putting an end to Jon Snow in the most painful way imaginable.

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ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given what Daenerys was to the Unsullied and Dothraki I just don’t see how Jon Snow would have survived capture – at least not intact anyway.

And if we ignore the anomaly of the rapidly multiplying numbers, why would the forces ranged against them be that much greater? It would have taken ages to reach King’s Landing. Those troops – mostly survivors of the fight with the NK, have no way of knowing if Drogon has gone for good or just gone to a funeral and will be back for vengeance shortly. Getting together enough men to overwhelm the deadly Dothraki and Unsullied would surely be far from certain?

I take your point about the Dothraki and the Khals. But Daenerys isn’t a Khal. In front of the Dothraki she immolated the Khals and came out of the furnace fully intact. Some of those have seen her do this neat little trick twice. She is surely more a Goddess than a run-of-the-mill Khal?

I would need to go back to the description of the Unsullied, but I suspect they are effectively automatons – that was their training - and they have been freed by the MoD. But as you say, they are led by the MoD’s right hand man, the man besotted with Missandei, and who has seen her executed. On the word of the Queen he was more than happy to continue the fighting after the surrender and to then execute PoW’s without question. I don’t think his character would have thought twice about putting an end to Jon Snow in the most painful way imaginable.

The show creators didn't adequately convey the passage of time between Daenerys' death and the convening of the council. We were left to infer this from Tyrion's beard growth, which was quite extensive if you looked closely - when he was led out of his prison cell to appear before the council he looked like he was still searching for a bloody volleyball named Wilson. Also, recall the end of Season 7, when Jon/Aegon pointed out to Daenerys that it would take at least 2 weeks to march the Unsullied and Dothraki from Dragonstone (near Kings Landing) to Winterfell. From that, we can deduce that it took at least that long to gather the lords from the other kingdoms, not to mention Dorne.

I still question the willingness of the Unsullied and the Dothraki to fight to the bitter end once their queen/khaleesi/goddess had disappeared with her dragon. They would have recognized the need for bargaining chips. Even the occupants of the fuhrer bunker looked for ways to escape/bargain their way to the west once their fuhrer was dead.

A note on the truncation of the season - the show creators were told that they had to broadcast all episodes by the end of May, which is the cutoff for qualifying for this year's Emmy nominations. Plus, it seems that they were not allowed to take 2 hours to broadcast a single episode when there were 2 other Sunday night Emmy contenders also wrapping up in May (Veep and Barry - both excellent shows). Veep and Barry have now concluded their seasons with extended-length episodes, allowing GoT to broadcast a 2-hour documentary this coming Sunday. HBO even pushed the Deadwood movie, also an Emmy contender, to Friday, May 31. It seems that this month was a choke point for HBO; I'll bet more scenes were shot but not included due to time constraints.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And as for what followed…..

So Jon has killed someone who is effectively a goddess to the Dothraki and the saviour to the Unsullied , who are programmed to fight to the death for her. Oh and where the hell did all those Unsullied come from? Despite the Harpies, the Undead, and the Lannisters, there were more Unsullied at the end than when Daenerys freed them from that old weasel in Astaphor or wherever it was. But I digress, so after Jon has slain their Queen what happens? He’s locked up instead of being hung, drawn and quartered… of course. “Mr Snow?” “Aye, appen as maybe”. “I’m arresting you sunshine on suspicion of Regicide… you have the right to remain silent……”.

But it gets worse. Tyrion – who betrayed the MoD remember - is brought before the gathering of familiar faces from previous episodes/series under armed guard led by Grey Worm. Who is Grey Worm taking orders from to do this? His Queen has been brutally slain in her hour of triumph but Grey Worm – apart from shouting a little bit at Tyrion and tells him he’s not here to speak – is then content to allow Tyrion to conduct proceedings…..

I guess the question is what does one do when one's savior/goddess is dead and you are effectively under siege in a wrecked foreign city by forces that probably outnumbered you when you first reached King's Landing and are growing each day? By moving all of their troops into King's Landing, and likely dependent upon supplies from the Northern armies (who now besiege them), the Unsullied and Dothraki were probably in a situation growing more dire each week.

While fierce in battle, the Dothraki were cold-blooded when it came to their leaders - recall the end of Season 1 when they abandoned the camp the very night Khal Drogo became incapacitated. In this case, their Khaleesi is dead and they are running out of food (courtesy of Khaleesi and her dragon).

As for the Unsullied, they are not automatons. Gray Worm was not appointed their leader - they elected him (Season 2, I recall), meaning they were capable of independent and rational thought. Gray Worm had already recognized that they would have no place in Westeros once Daenerys had taken the Iron Throne; now that she was dead they were really in the wrong place at the wrong time. Leaderless, facing a besieging force, and with supplies running out, the Unsullied had to find a way to negotiate their way out.

This made Jon/Aegon and Tyrion less prisoners than hostages. Ser Davos offers the Unsullied land of their own in Westeros - so the negotiation begins.

This is where my frustration builds. The show's creators needed to include scenes of the immediate aftermath to Daenerys' death: Gray Worm and the Unsullied discovering Daenerys and Drogon gone, with a huge blood stain on the floor, the melted lump that used to be the Iron Throne, and Jon/Aegon in grief. They needed to show conversations amongst the Unsullied and even the Dothraki that touched upon rage (he murdered our Khaleesi), unease (the Northern armies who outnumber us have withdrawn to outside what's left of the city walls), and even dread (the little food left inside the city is disappearing and how the hell do we get out of this place). Such scenes would have set up what ultimately happened in the the grand council scene.

warspite1

Given what Daenerys was to the Unsullied and Dothraki I just don’t see how Jon Snow would have survived capture – at least not intact anyway.

And if we ignore the anomaly of the rapidly multiplying numbers, why would the forces ranged against them be that much greater? It would have taken ages to reach King’s Landing. Those troops – mostly survivors of the fight with the NK, have no way of knowing if Drogon has gone for good or just gone to a funeral and will be back for vengeance shortly. Getting together enough men to overwhelm the deadly Dothraki and Unsullied would surely be far from certain?

I take your point about the Dothraki and the Khals. But Daenerys isn’t a Khal. In front of the Dothraki she immolated the Khals and came out of the furnace fully intact. Some of those have seen her do this neat little trick twice. She is surely more a Goddess than a run-of-the-mill Khal?

I would need to go back to the description of the Unsullied, but I suspect they are effectively automatons – that was their training - and they have been freed by the MoD. But as you say, they are led by the MoD’s right hand man, the man besotted with Missandei, and who has seen her executed. On the word of the Queen he was more than happy to continue the fighting after the surrender and to then execute PoW’s without question. I don’t think his character would have thought twice about putting an end to Jon Snow in the most painful way imaginable.

The final point you make is I think universal – it’s not necessarily what the makers delivered – it’s in the p*** poor delivery itself.

Final points from me that has been nagging away since yesterday.

Firstly, and I mentioned this before when not knowing that the Night’s Watch would remain in existence. What the hell for? The Wildlings and the North now have a bond. They choose to go back north of the wall. Fine. But what does Tormund think when the Night’s Watch start to man the castles once more and rebuild the wall? Can he expect raiding parties when the North decide they don’t like the Wildlings anymore? Tyrion explained it with a simplistic (I paraphrase) “there will always be a need to find a home for criminals and bastard sons”. Well yes, but that is not the totally redundant Night Watch for whom there would literally be nothing to do on a daily basis……

Secondly, Sansa decides (and the ‘council’ agrees) that the North will be an independent Kingdom on Westeros. So am I right in thinking the (melted) Iron Throne rules over the 6 Kingdoms and that there is no political link between the two? If so then what in the name of Bonaparte’s balls were the northern contingent on that council, voting on who would be the next ruler? As soon as it was agreed that the north had left the United (six) Kingdoms then they would have absolutely NO right to any say in what happened to the south.

And again trying to bring some sort of real life thinking into this, the position would be that the north is now a separate Kingdom ruled by a Stark – but a Stark is conveniently now installed at King’s Landing. Totally and utterly unrealistic to the people from south of ‘the north’ surely??

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Firstly, and I mentioned this before when not knowing that the Night’s Watch would remain in existence. What the hell for? The Wildlings and the North now have a bond. They choose to go back north of the wall. Fine. But what does Tormund think when the Night’s Watch start to man the castles once more and rebuild the wall? Can he expect raiding parties when the North decide they don’t like the Wildlings anymore? Tyrion explained it with a simplistic (I paraphrase) “there will always be a need to find a home for criminals and bastard sons”. Well yes, but that is not the totally redundant Night Watch for whom there would literally be nothing to do on a daily basis……

The history of the White Walkers is embedded in the saga of the North. It's happened before the GOT timeline and I suspect there's every reason to believe that sensible minds think it will happen again. Who knows if their next 'visit' will be in 1000 years or merely a hundred? Rebuilding the wall may not be necessary *tomorrow*, but the planning for rebuilding and remanning the wall needs to start soon. In the LONG view, the Knight's Watch is not redundant and rebuilding the institution should be a reasonable priority.

What struck me about the scene where they're walking into the North with the Wildlings was the staged green shoot emerging from the snow. As if it was portending propitious growing conditions and the promise of warm Spring weather soon. Wasn't Winter coming? Did the rise of the White Walkers coincide with the peak of Winter conditions and it's Spring already? Didn't these Winters last hundreds of years?

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Secondly, Sansa decides (and the ‘council’ agrees) that the North will be an independent Kingdom on Westeros. So am I right in thinking the (melted) Iron Throne rules over the 6 Kingdoms and that there is no political link between the two? If so then what in the name of Bonaparte’s balls were the northern contingent on that council, voting on who would be the next ruler? As soon as it was agreed that the north had left the United (six) Kingdoms then they would have absolutely NO right to any say in what happened to the south.

And again trying to bring some sort of real life thinking into this, the position would be that the north is now a separate Kingdom ruled by a Stark – but a Stark is conveniently now installed at King’s Landing. Totally and utterly unrealistic to the people from south of ‘the north’ surely??

I hadn't thought of it in exactly that way, but I agree. The North stuffed the ballot box and no one said a thing about it. BTW was anyone present speaking for whatever remained of the Lannisters' interests?

As a non-sequitor, how are European Parliamentary elections going? I'm sure the "Southerners" have a view about how the "Northerners" should be able to vote in their future continental leadership. I jest, but I can't imagine that there's not some aside regarding current European political machinations about direction and leadership that are relevant to the writers. Granted, they botched those analogies and lead in to that too, but I think that may have been a nod to current realpolitik.

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ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

The show creators didn't adequately convey the passage of time between Daenerys' death and the convening of the council. We were left to infer this from Tyrion's beard growth, which was quite extensive if you looked closely - when he was led out of his prison cell to appear before the council he looked like he was still searching for a bloody volleyball named Wilson. Also, recall the end of Season 7, when Jon/Aegon pointed out to Daenerys that it would take at least 2 weeks to march the Unsullied and Dothraki from Dragonstone (near Kings Landing) to Winterfell. From that, we can deduce that it took at least that long to gather the lords from the other kingdoms, not to mention Dorne.

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ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

Yes we've all complained about the poor writing, bad pacing, plot loopholes etc.............. I put it all down to the series getting ahead of the books. Agree?

On a good note, the cinematography of the series was excellent!
The special effects were first class, really. When those dragons grew up and flamed the Lannister caravan, whoooo.
The costumes were great.
The battles scenes were awesome! Go back and re-watch Battle of the Bastards.

In the end (for the last 3 seasons tbh) I pretty much gave up on the plot and all the characters and all the fan theories and lore
I simply watched it for the spectacle. I will miss it.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

Yes we've all complained about the poor writing, bad pacing, plot loopholes etc.............. I put it all down to the series getting ahead of the books. Agree?

On a good note, the cinematography of the series was excellent!
The special effects were first class, really. When those dragons grew up and flamed the Lannister caravan, whoooo.
The costumes were great.
The battles scenes were awesome! Go back and re-watch Battle of the Bastards.

In the end (for the last 3 seasons tbh) I pretty much gave up on the plot and all the characters and all the fan theories and lore
I simply watched it for the spectacle. I will miss it.

Spot on. Of course, you're overlooking a very important element explaining my ongoing viewership. Well, two contributions, really.

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

Yes we've all complained about the poor writing, bad pacing, plot loopholes etc.............. I put it all down to the series getting ahead of the books. Agree?

On a good note, the cinematography of the series was excellent!
The special effects were first class, really. When those dragons grew up and flamed the Lannister caravan, whoooo.
The costumes were great.
The battles scenes were awesome! Go back and re-watch Battle of the Bastards.

In the end (for the last 3 seasons tbh) I pretty much gave up on the plot and all the characters and all the fan theories and lore
I simply watched it for the spectacle. I will miss it.

Spot on. Of course, you're overlooking a very important element explaining my ongoing viewership. Well, two contributions, really.

2 Contributions? My memory fails me; perhaps you could enlighten us as to which 2 of your 24,732 posts are meaningful.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

Yes we've all complained about the poor writing, bad pacing, plot loopholes etc.............. I put it all down to the series getting ahead of the books. Agree?

On a good note, the cinematography of the series was excellent!
The special effects were first class, really. When those dragons grew up and flamed the Lannister caravan, whoooo.
The costumes were great.
The battles scenes were awesome! Go back and re-watch Battle of the Bastards.

In the end (for the last 3 seasons tbh) I pretty much gave up on the plot and all the characters and all the fan theories and lore
I simply watched it for the spectacle. I will miss it.

Spot on. Of course, you're overlooking a very important element explaining my ongoing viewership. Well, two contributions, really.

2 Contributions? My memory fails me; perhaps you could enlighten us as to which 2 of your 24,732 posts are meaningful.

Oh. For Pete's sake. Since we're on the topic of "Game of Thrones" and we're talking about things that go well in 'twos', might you be able to extrapolate what juvenile mammary topic I have in mind? I mean-goodness. Kids these days.

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
I hadn't quite fathomed the depth of your juvenile nature. Please accept my sincere apology.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
I hadn't quite fathomed the depth of your juvenile nature. Please accept my sincere apology.

No apologies necessary, Zilch. Frankly I'm disappointed that you hadn't heretofore fathomed the depth of my juvenile nature. Please see to it that it doesn't happen again.

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
Exactly how low is your juvenile nature willing to go?

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ORIGINAL: Lecivius

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
Exactly how low is your juvenile nature willing to go?

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Lecivius

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
Exactly how low is your juvenile nature willing to go?

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

So, with all these battles all through many seasons of the show, did the marketing licensing ever include any actual games of these battles?

Or just a straight up, yes, Game of Thrones or War of the Five Kings across all of Westeros?

The old Avalon Hill games Shogun, or Dune, or assuredly many others in the history of wargaming could serve as an intriguing model. There could be plenty of options for both maneuvering military units, temporary? Diplomacy and back-stabbing, random events or cards one can play - “Oh, look, I have the Valar Morghulis card and assassins just hit your field commander” or what have you, who can hire the Golden Horde or hypnotize the Dothraki into visiting Westeros or which House suddenly has an internal schism (Iron Islanders particularly unstable) etc., etc.

Unfortunately I figure if that were to happen today it would just be a slapped together stab at Axis & Allies:Westeros, or even worse, Risk.