RE: Sub patrol zones

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Sub patrol zones

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RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/25/2019 8:24:52 PM

bradfordkay

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From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Be careful about "patrol around hex" settings in areas with high ASW activity. The legs on each section of the patrol zone are so short that your sub will rarely lower its detection level, making it more vulnerable to attack and less likely to get off one of its own attacks. I prefer to set fairly long legged patrol zones along known shipping routes, thus bringing the sub into and out of high ASW patrol areas and keeping its detection level down.

I think this depends on where exactly you click. If you wanted to set a patrol around Marcus Island and click on the island, you should get a patrol with the island itself at one corner of the three waypoint hexes. If you click one hex away from Marcus, you get a fairly tight patrol zone around Marcus. But if you click at about 4 or 5 hexes from Marcus, you should get a PZ with much longer legs. Been a while since I used that feature but that is how I recall it.

I just experimented with this and found that my earlier experience still rings true. Setting "patrol around target" on an empty sea hex - no matter where it is (I chose hexes in the middle of the open ocean between Truk and Marcus, between Saipan and Formosa, as well as between Midway and Wake) resulted in legs only 3-4 hexes long. This is not long enough to take your sub our of ASW a/c patrol range and reduce the detection level, IMO.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 31

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/25/2019 8:40:43 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Be careful about "patrol around hex" settings in areas with high ASW activity. The legs on each section of the patrol zone are so short that your sub will rarely lower its detection level, making it more vulnerable to attack and less likely to get off one of its own attacks. I prefer to set fairly long legged patrol zones along known shipping routes, thus bringing the sub into and out of high ASW patrol areas and keeping its detection level down.

I think this depends on where exactly you click. If you wanted to set a patrol around Marcus Island and click on the island, you should get a patrol with the island itself at one corner of the three waypoint hexes. If you click one hex away from Marcus, you get a fairly tight patrol zone around Marcus. But if you click at about 4 or 5 hexes from Marcus, you should get a PZ with much longer legs. Been a while since I used that feature but that is how I recall it.

I just experimented with this and found that my earlier experience still rings true. Setting "patrol around target" on an empty sea hex - no matter where it is (I chose hexes in the middle of the open ocean between Truk and Marcus, between Saipan and Formosa, as well as between Midway and Wake) resulted in legs only 3-4 hexes long. This is not long enough to take your sub our of ASW a/c patrol range and reduce the detection level, IMO.

Interesting. I never assessed it from that perspective. I too typically see 3-4 hex legs on patterns I allow the AI to establish. I will typically run with that unless it is a particularly bad pattern.

However, I often establish distinct patterns with hexes chosen by me for the opposite reason you do because i want a tighter pattern.

Another thing to be wary of is letting the AI establish the pattern close to straits or enemy ports with minefields.
I'm in August of '45 in my current game and have had plenty subs venture into dangerous waters. Sometimes because I didn't look closely at the pattern established and sometimes because they chase prey out of their patrol patterns into mined straits.

The game has so much variability and randomization that we will never be able to efficiently plan and order perfect patterns that are adhered to religiously. After all I want my sub commanders to chase prey, just not into some of the places they have chosen to venture.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 32

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/25/2019 9:05:45 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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I like to run my sub patrols into particular high traffic straits and then back out of them (no lingering). I have had excellent success with patrols that run from Mili to the strait between Formosa and Batan Island, from that strait to the approaches to Kyoto or Hiroshima, from Surabaya through the strait near Balikpapan to just off Mindanao. Open water straits don't hold mines very long so, unless my opponent is heavily (consistently) mining them it is not much of a risk (keep in mind that mining open water hexes is dangerous to TFs from both sides, so he is risking his own ships in doing that).

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 33

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 4:31:06 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Human control always. The sub TF will try to return to port to replenish in a timely fashion, but sometimes waits too long, and subs cannot replenish at sea so if you don't have a friendly port that is closer, you may have a sub that is adrift at sea with little you can do about it. I don't let the AI do anything I can do myself, you need to keep an eye on your subs out there.

Hmm. So milk cows*/sub tenders can't do anything if they meet out in the open ocean, contingent on the above variable?

*Are these in fact modeled for this game?

Subs are the only ships that can neither refuel at sea or refuel another ship at sea. Sub tenders only do what they do in port.

(in reply to Elessar2)

Post #: 34

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 4:33:28 AM

geofflambert

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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I like to run my sub patrols into particular high traffic straits and then back out of them (no lingering). I have had excellent success with patrols that run from Mili to the strait between Formosa and Batan Island, from that strait to the approaches to Kyoto or Hiroshima, from Surabaya through the strait near Balikpapan to just off Mindanao. Open water straits don't hold mines very long so, unless my opponent is heavily (consistently) mining them it is not much of a risk (keep in mind that mining open water hexes is dangerous to TFs from both sides, so he is risking his own ships in doing that).

I always have at least three squadrons of ASW patrolling that area and perhaps more in training to boot. Please visit the strait between Formosa and Batan Island.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 35

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 4:39:50 AM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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I will at the very least ding the paint job on your new sub.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 36

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 7:39:59 AM

bradfordkay

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From: Olympia, WA
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Well, that happens... but I was just shocked when I checked my losses. It is mid Feb '43 in my present game and I have lost 1 US and 3 Dutch subs. That's it... I have had several sent to the shipyards for considerable repair, but I am surprised at such low losses.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 37

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 11:10:45 AM

LeeChard

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From: Michigan
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When you've set the patrol zone what is the consensus on the reaction setting?

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 38

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 4:53:38 PM

bradfordkay

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From: Olympia, WA
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Subs can only be set to react one hex, and it is definitely worth doing (though I often forget to do so).

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to LeeChard)

Post #: 39

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 5:12:24 PM

MakeeLearn

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Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

When you've set the patrol zone what is the consensus on the reaction setting?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Subs can only be set to react one hex, and it is definitely worth doing (though I often forget to do so).

If you want to keep your subs from entering shallow water or ports set reaction to 0.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/26/2019 5:14:35 PM >

(in reply to LeeChard)

Post #: 40

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/26/2019 6:00:31 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Well, that happens... but I was just shocked when I checked my losses. It is mid Feb '43 in my present game and I have lost 1 US and 3 Dutch subs. That's it... I have had several sent to the shipyards for considerable repair, but I am surprised at such low losses.

Japanese ASW is atrocious. From the air it is effective but the surface units are practically useless, they just suppress sub activity a tiny bit. Historically, in deep water the Japanese ASW was completely ineffective.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 41

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/27/2019 1:55:42 PM

LeeChard

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Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

When you've set the patrol zone what is the consensus on the reaction setting?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Subs can only be set to react one hex, and it is definitely worth doing (though I often forget to do so).

If you want to keep your subs from entering shallow water or ports set reaction to 0.

Thanks guys.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)

Post #: 42

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/29/2019 8:42:52 PM

Rusty1961

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Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I like to run my sub patrols into particular high traffic straits and then back out of them (no lingering). I have had excellent success with patrols that run from Mili to the strait between Formosa and Batan Island, from that strait to the approaches to Kyoto or Hiroshima, from Surabaya through the strait near Balikpapan to just off Mindanao. Open water straits don't hold mines very long so, unless my opponent is heavily (consistently) mining them it is not much of a risk (keep in mind that mining open water hexes is dangerous to TFs from both sides, so he is risking his own ships in doing that).

Between Formosa and Bataan Island was known as the "Luzon Straight".

I found that to be a great place-esp down the cost of Luzon down to Manial, for the '42 US Boats.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 43

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/30/2019 3:45:56 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I like to run my sub patrols into particular high traffic straits and then back out of them (no lingering). I have had excellent success with patrols that run from Mili to the strait between Formosa and Batan Island, from that strait to the approaches to Kyoto or Hiroshima, from Surabaya through the strait near Balikpapan to just off Mindanao. Open water straits don't hold mines very long so, unless my opponent is heavily (consistently) mining them it is not much of a risk (keep in mind that mining open water hexes is dangerous to TFs from both sides, so he is risking his own ships in doing that).

Between Formosa and Bataan Island was known as the "Luzon Straight".

I found that to be a great place-esp down the cost of Luzon down to Manial, for the '42 US Boats.

Thanks for the geographical reminder. Of course, the Luzon strait is between Formosa and Batan Island. The Bataan Peninsula forms one side of Manila Bay. Since you like to be so exact in naming geographic locations, I am sure that you want to fix that mistake...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Rusty1961)

Post #: 44

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/30/2019 1:54:00 PM

aphrochine

Posts: 189
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I like to run my sub patrols into particular high traffic straits and then back out of them (no lingering). I have had excellent success with patrols that run from Mili to the strait between Formosa and Batan Island, from that strait to the approaches to Kyoto or Hiroshima, from Surabaya through the strait near Balikpapan to just off Mindanao. Open water straits don't hold mines very long so, unless my opponent is heavily (consistently) mining them it is not much of a risk (keep in mind that mining open water hexes is dangerous to TFs from both sides, so he is risking his own ships in doing that).

I have to concur with the "no lingering" doctrine. The more detection levels a sub builds up, the less effective it is and the more prone to ASW attack it is. If I want to focus an area, I'll set the 3rd waypoint 10-12 hexes out into deep ocean to ensure that all the detection falls off before going back in for another pass.

I do tend to avoid straights, or any area which could have mines.

I also tend to patrol longer sea lanes, such as between Truck <-> HI...or Borneo and Truck. The attacks may be rarer, but more deadly as there is usually no friendly ports nearby for the victims and I believe I see better attacks from those random deep ocean encounters.

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VMF-422 fanboy
Grog Virgin fanboy

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 45

RE: Sub patrol zones - 1/30/2019 2:08:10 PM

Macclan5

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From: Toronto Canada
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Curious follow up question for the valuable advice seen here.

1) Tend to set Sub Patrols in "tight hex patterns" ?

i.e. One Hex ( as mentioned in passing ) or series of close - tight hexes ?

2) Tend to set Sub Patrols in longer more extended patterns ?

i.e. setting one hex in patrol some 12 hexes away in deep water (as mentioned in passing).

I agree it is of course situational - no universal rule. I am merely asking about player 'tendency'

Disclaimer - I tend to set manual sub patrols (always) and usually in tight patterns - encompassing no more than - say 6 hexes.

My philosophy in this is dictated by a number of Allied AARs I have read.

That is "time in patrol is better than timing patrol".

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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to aphrochine)

Post #: 46

RE: Sub patrol zones - 2/2/2019 4:48:58 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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Well, DL's are set to 0 at the beginning of each day/night resolution phase, manual p219. In addition 10.1.2, p220, MDL's for subs are cut in half every 12 hours. So take that for what's its worth.

I set my patrol zones up in relation to the situation. Now I play the AI so its easy. In a PBEM I'm certain adjustments will have to be made.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 47