RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU production

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RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/1/2019 5:55:12 PM

rustysi

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quote:

By delaying about 20 x SST by about a year I figure I can build all other IJN ships at normal build rate,

In my experience that's a pretty good estimate.

Not only that those SST's if built to their original date will most likely be sitting around doing much of nothing. By waiting a year to build them, assuming you do at all, they will be busier and much more useful.

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Post #: 31

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/1/2019 6:04:52 PM

rustysi

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quote:

For instance, garrison troops in China and Manchukuo and the Home Islands may be using an old discontinued model of tank but if you update all those units those tanks will be trashed even though they were working perfectly well for the purposes of those units.

There's something else here you should be aware of as well. I checked my pools last night and all those 'old discontinued model of tanks' pools' are ZERO. I've updated almost all of mine to the model 1 for Japan. IIRC I've read somewhere that these are 'eliminated' (may not be the best term) and a portion of their HI costs are returned to the HI pool. Pretty sure this is with all veh and arm pools of 'obsolete' weapons. I know this to be true WRT aircraft. I have at times seen HI increases that could not be explained any other way.

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Post #: 32

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/1/2019 6:11:33 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

One thing I do from the start is turn off ALL reinforcements/replacements for all units and turn off ALL updates for all units and then selectively turn those things on for selected units as the game progresses so that these things aren't being wasted on garrison forces, which is the majority of your troops, and the good stuff therefore goes to the front lines where they are needed.

TBH, as far as Japan goes maybe the updates off makes a little difference, but most (if not all) units in the HI and Manchukuo are already at full strength. The rest of your army will be fighting so I suggest you let them draw whatever it is that they need.

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Post #: 33

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/1/2019 10:06:51 PM

geofflambert

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Garrisons don't usually fight and China is just one huge place to garrison. You need enough AV but you don't need up to date equipment.

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Post #: 34

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 2:10:21 PM

AleRonin

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Question: when a Japanese LCU unit arrives as reinforcement, are all the devices in the unit free of charge or do you need armament/vehicles points?
If the latter, I think the amount of points to fill out a full division is really high.

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Post #: 35

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 2:56:31 PM

Uncivil Engineer

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From: Florida, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Question: when a Japanese LCU unit arrives as reinforcement, are all the devices in the unit free of charge or do you need armament/vehicles points?
If the latter, I think the amount of points to fill out a full division is really high.

It's the latter. Also, many of the Japanese units at the beginning of a scenario (especially Scenario 1 in China) are not at full strength. So they too must be filled out.

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Post #: 36

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 3:46:48 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

For instance, garrison troops in China and Manchukuo and the Home Islands may be using an old discontinued model of tank but if you update all those units those tanks will be trashed even though they were working perfectly well for the purposes of those units.

There's something else here you should be aware of as well. I checked my pools last night and all those 'old discontinued model of tanks' pools' are ZERO. I've updated almost all of mine to the model 1 for Japan. IIRC I've read somewhere that these are 'eliminated' (may not be the best term) and a portion of their HI costs are returned to the HI pool. Pretty sure this is with all veh and arm pools of 'obsolete' weapons. I know this to be true WRT aircraft. I have at times seen HI increases that could not be explained any other way.

The return of certain obsolete Japanese devices to their constituent raw materials was introduced in Patch #6 of 21 Jan 2012 in note #40 of New Features.

The scrapping of excess Japanese planes, as per s.13.8 of the manual, has been there since the release of AE.

Alfred

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Post #: 37

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 3:50:44 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Question: when a Japanese LCU unit arrives as reinforcement, are all the devices in the unit free of charge or do you need armament/vehicles points?
If the latter, I think the amount of points to fill out a full division is really high.

AFAIK, you get the devices that are onscreen 'free'. However, if the OOB is less than the TOE, the unit will 'fill' with devices that are lacking. These devices cost points to fill out the unit. Example: A unit comes onto the map at 75% TOE. If 'reinforcements / replacements' are turned on, there's a HQ in range and adequate supply, the unit will fill to the TOE at a certain pace. The 'gap' replacements / reinforcements cost HI to produce in order to fill.

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Post #: 38

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 3:52:00 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

For instance, garrison troops in China and Manchukuo and the Home Islands may be using an old discontinued model of tank but if you update all those units those tanks will be trashed even though they were working perfectly well for the purposes of those units.

There's something else here you should be aware of as well. I checked my pools last night and all those 'old discontinued model of tanks' pools' are ZERO. I've updated almost all of mine to the model 1 for Japan. IIRC I've read somewhere that these are 'eliminated' (may not be the best term) and a portion of their HI costs are returned to the HI pool. Pretty sure this is with all veh and arm pools of 'obsolete' weapons. I know this to be true WRT aircraft. I have at times seen HI increases that could not be explained any other way.

The return of certain obsolete Japanese devices to their constituent raw materials was introduced in Patch #6 of 21 Jan 2012 in note #40 of New Features.

The scrapping of excess Japanese planes, as per s.13.8 of the manual, has been there since the release of AE.

Alfred

Is this return of constituent raw materials (ersatz HI points) to the pools codified in the OP report or elsewhere?

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Post #: 39

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 6:21:08 PM

AleRonin

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Therefore I need manpower and armament/vehicle points not only for losses and upgrades but also for fresh units if under nominal strenght.
Thanks

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Post #: 40

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 6:36:11 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Therefore I need manpower and armament/vehicle points not only for losses and upgrades but also for fresh units if under nominal strenght.
Thanks

Aye.

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Post #: 41

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 8:26:27 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Question: when a Japanese LCU unit arrives as reinforcement, are all the devices in the unit free of charge or do you need armament/vehicles points?
If the latter, I think the amount of points to fill out a full division is really high.

I've never seen what appeared as a full charge for reinforcing units, but there's some cost.

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Post #: 42

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 8:28:06 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Is this return of constituent raw materials (ersatz HI points) to the pools codified in the OP report or elsewhere?

Not that I've noticed. Just see it sometimes in the HI pool which I do glance at every turn.

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Post #: 43

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 8:31:56 PM

Dili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

For instance, garrison troops in China and Manchukuo and the Home Islands may be using an old discontinued model of tank but if you update all those units those tanks will be trashed even though they were working perfectly well for the purposes of those units.

There's something else here you should be aware of as well. I checked my pools last night and all those 'old discontinued model of tanks' pools' are ZERO. I've updated almost all of mine to the model 1 for Japan. IIRC I've read somewhere that these are 'eliminated' (may not be the best term) and a portion of their HI costs are returned to the HI pool. Pretty sure this is with all veh and arm pools of 'obsolete' weapons. I know this to be true WRT aircraft. I have at times seen HI increases that could not be explained any other way.

The return of certain obsolete Japanese devices to their constituent raw materials was introduced in Patch #6 of 21 Jan 2012 in note #40 of New Features.

The scrapping of excess Japanese planes, as per s.13.8 of the manual, has been there since the release of AE.

Alfred

A question, what trigger the "obsolescence" is that there is an upgrade path and the upgrade started to being produced or instead there is no units asking for those devices?

A situation: lets suppose GUN model 1940 upgrades to GUN model 1942 . GUN 1942 started to being produced, but the GUN 1940 is still the majority in the army and those units with it are in combat obviously loosing some or all.
Will those units with non full TOE due to losses will get those replacements that appear in pool when other units upgrade? Or are forced to upgrade?

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Post #: 44

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 10:01:23 PM

jdsrae

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Therefore I need manpower and armament/vehicle points not only for losses and upgrades but also for fresh units if under nominal strenght.
Thanks

Yes, plus supply equal to manpower points used for both �reinforcement� new units and the �replacement� devices to fill out TOE shortfalls.
This is about 14000ish manpower+supply for an average infantry division. From memory armaments are about 4-6k and an infantry division with motorised support can need 600ish Vehicle Points. There are lots of different TOEs for infantry divisions so these are just a rough guide.
Plus supply to repair disabled devices / heal sick squads. I�m not sure how much per device / squad to do this yet but I assume it�s a factor of the device load cost.

Don�t forget supply as it won�t forget to be used almost whenever you click on something!

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 5/2/2019 10:05:30 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/2/2019 10:54:54 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

For instance, garrison troops in China and Manchukuo and the Home Islands may be using an old discontinued model of tank but if you update all those units those tanks will be trashed even though they were working perfectly well for the purposes of those units.

There's something else here you should be aware of as well. I checked my pools last night and all those 'old discontinued model of tanks' pools' are ZERO. I've updated almost all of mine to the model 1 for Japan. IIRC I've read somewhere that these are 'eliminated' (may not be the best term) and a portion of their HI costs are returned to the HI pool. Pretty sure this is with all veh and arm pools of 'obsolete' weapons. I know this to be true WRT aircraft. I have at times seen HI increases that could not be explained any other way.

The return of certain obsolete Japanese devices to their constituent raw materials was introduced in Patch #6 of 21 Jan 2012 in note #40 of New Features.

The scrapping of excess Japanese planes, as per s.13.8 of the manual, has been there since the release of AE.

Alfred

A question, what trigger the "obsolescence" is that there is an upgrade path and the upgrade started to being produced or instead there is no units asking for those devices?

A situation: lets suppose GUN model 1940 upgrades to GUN model 1942 . GUN 1942 started to being produced, but the GUN 1940 is still the majority in the army and those units with it are in combat obviously loosing some or all.
Will those units with non full TOE due to losses will get those replacements that appear in pool when other units upgrade? Or are forced to upgrade?

Upgrades take place when the TOE (table of establishment - the list of men and equipment the unit is authorized to have) shows a device in a certain device slot (place on the list) and the unit does not have that device yet. If there are some in the pools and the unit has "upgrades allowed" turned on and there is enough supply in stock, it will draw some of the required devices.

If the new device is replacing the old device and there are not enough to fully fill the TOE numbers, the unit could temporarily lose strength during the upgrade until it gets numbers that it had before. For example, some of the Indian Army (Allied) Armoured Car units start out with a full complement of A/Cs but their TOE says they should get a newer type vehicle. There are not enough of the newer type vehicle early in the game so if it allows upgrades, it can end up swapping out 16 A/Cs and taking on only four or five. Most players manage this by stockpiling the new devices in the pools until there are enough, and only then turning on the upgrade.

The above describes what happens if the game start TOEs show an upgrade device is allowed. Throughout the game, at the beginning of each month, new TOEs can come into effect. The unit does NOT adopt the new TOE unless it is in REST/TRAINING mode. This is to prevent unwanted upgrades in the midst of a battle.
After one turn of rest the unit switches to the new TOE and can then draw new devices from the pools. Again, it usually must wait on enough new devices being available.

When a device upgrades the old devices go to the pools and can be drawn by other units that are still using that old device. Nothing is ever obsolete if it can be used somewhere!

Splitting a large unit into three components can speed up the process of taking replacements and new devices. The game tries to satisfy all the units clamoring for the devices and if the big unit is split in three, it can get up to three times as many of the device in a turn because each sub-unit is treated as a unit.

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Post #: 46

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 1:05:20 AM

Dili

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Good post BBfanboy hope it is confirmed by Alfred this is what i consider crucial from your post:

- The unit does NOT adopt the new TOE unless it is in REST/TRAINING mode. This is to prevent unwanted upgrades in the midst of a battle.

-Splitting a large unit into three components can speed up the process of taking replacements and new devices. The game tries to satisfy all the units clamoring for the devices and if the big unit is split in three, it can get up to three times as many of the device in a turn because each sub-unit is treated as a unit.

- When a device upgrades the old devices go to the pools and can be drawn by other units that are still using that old device. Nothing is ever obsolete if it can be used somewhere!

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Post #: 47

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 2:35:38 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Good post BBfanboy hope it is confirmed by Alfred this is what i consider crucial from your post:

- The unit does NOT adopt the new TOE unless it is in REST/TRAINING mode. This is to prevent unwanted upgrades in the midst of a battle.

-Splitting a large unit into three components can speed up the process of taking replacements and new devices. The game tries to satisfy all the units clamoring for the devices and if the big unit is split in three, it can get up to three times as many of the device in a turn because each sub-unit is treated as a unit.

- When a device upgrades the old devices go to the pools and can be drawn by other units that are still using that old device. Nothing is ever obsolete if it can be used somewhere!

There are a lot of ifs, ands and buts - I did not want to put in too many for a new player to try and absorb. On the old devices to the pools there are some exceptions in the squads category. In some cases the old squads get converted in the pool to the new squad in use at that time. This simulates keeping the same men and just giving them a different array of hand-held weapons like BARs and bazookas. For that kind of exchange it makes no sense to draw the squad with the old equipment out of the pool - a cascading changeover should be set up with units in order of priority drawing the new squads.

There may also be some nuances in the way Japanese TOEs work. I am not familiar with IJA LCU management.

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Post #: 48

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 2:45:28 AM

Dili

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I think it is different because of how Japanese industry works.

< Message edited by Dili -- 5/3/2019 3:06:24 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 4:35:58 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

- When a device upgrades the old devices go to the pools and can be drawn by other units that are still using that old device. Nothing is ever obsolete if it can be used somewhere!

That's the point of turning off all upgrades, when you update a particular unit for a reason dictated by necessity, there may well be a unit which is only garrisoning some city which can use that equipment.

Man! Sometimes we start talking about something that might seem simple, and then it just goes on and on and on!

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Post #: 50

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 4:36:46 AM

jdsrae

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The in game mechanism for TOE changes (these occur in a few LCU, eg: some home base forces get more AA and aviation support devices at preset dates) and device upgrades work the same for Japan by he unit having to be in Rest/Training mode, and I think a few other prerequisites like in range of a Command HQ. I recall an AAR where someone took the 4th Fleet HQ on a world tour of the Pacific to help upgrade bits in various units.

There aren�t many IJ devices that have monthly build rates but there are a few like radars and the �colonial� troops like the Thai, Manchu and collaborative Chinese factions. Replacement and upgrade of those devices depends on numbers in the pool just like the allies.
All other IJ squads and devices are just a sum of their raw material inputs, so as long as you have the materials in the pools and supply at the base the upgrades and replacements can occur.

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Post #: 51

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 11:51:11 AM

AleRonin

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Can I select a specific device to be upgraded?

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RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 12:45:01 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Good post BBfanboy hope it is confirmed by Alfred this is what i consider crucial from your post:

- The unit does NOT adopt the new TOE unless it is in REST/TRAINING mode. This is to prevent unwanted upgrades in the midst of a battle.

I can confirm this. I wasn't aware of it until BBFanboy pointed it out not long ago in another thread. Perusing my current game uncovered dozens upon dozens of units that had long since passed their TOE upgrade dates with no upgrade because I had never 'rested' them.

Subsequently placing these units in rest mode resulted in their TOE upgrades being implemented.

Amazing to think that I had been playing this game for 10 years without catching on to this.

I owe BB big time.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 5/3/2019 1:08:37 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 12:46:22 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Can I select a specific device to be upgraded?

Maybe by setting all the other potential upgrades of device types that LCU possess to "stockpile" in the device listing interface.

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Post #: 54

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 3:45:02 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Good post BBfanboy hope it is confirmed by Alfred this is what i consider crucial from your post:

- The unit does NOT adopt the new TOE unless it is in REST/TRAINING mode. This is to prevent unwanted upgrades in the midst of a battle.

I can confirm this. I wasn't aware of it until BBFanboy pointed it out not long ago in another thread. Perusing my current game uncovered dozens upon dozens of units that had long since passed their TOE upgrade dates with no upgrade because I had never 'rested' them.

Subsequently placing these units in rest mode resulted in their TOE upgrades being implemented.

Amazing to think that I had been playing this game for 10 years without catching on to this.

I owe BB big time.

The credit goes to Alfred who covered this a couple of years ago on one of his typical posts clarifying a whole lot of speculation on how LCU device upgrades work. In a few bullet point statements he cleared up pages of discussion! ... as usual!

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Post #: 55

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 3:54:57 PM

AleRonin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

Can I select a specific device to be upgraded?

Maybe by setting all the other potential upgrades of device types that LCU possess to "stockpile" in the device listing interface.

Good to know, thanks!

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Post #: 56

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 5:57:52 PM

AleRonin

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If I'm right, looking at this picture, once I have stockpiled what needed I can upgrade the specific device switching to "N".

Anyhow how the single devices will be producted? Is it random or what?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AleRonin -- 5/3/2019 6:03:54 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 8:41:28 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

If I'm right, looking at this picture, once I have stockpiled what needed I can upgrade the specific device switching to "N".

Anyhow how the single devices will be producted? Is it random or what?

You need to also have he unit set to "Upgrades allowed" and "Replacements Allowed".

For Allied devices, the production rates and dates of start and (if applicable) end are set in the Database. Use the Editor to look at the scenario you are playing and then look at the "Devices" tab. There are a few exceptions where batches of devices arrive on a "Reinforcement Convoy" and you just leave it alone to dump them in your pools in three days.

For the Japanese there is some scheduled production like the Allies, but the Japanese industry can also use Manpower + HI + Supply to produce squads, and Armaments or Vehicles + HI + Supply to produce LCU equipment. I am not familiar with how to manipulate this with stockpiling buttons, etc.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 5/3/2019 8:42:44 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 9:01:44 PM

Dili

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If production is ON i believe the Japanese production works in need basis.
So it might build more artillery or more tanks as it needs, now what trigger the needs - units that ask for replacements and upgrades? losses? i am not sure. I am also not sure if stockpiling can override this, like building a lots of tanks to upgrade 2 armored divisions in a very relative short time before an offensive. I am also not sure if stockpiling what is the rate of production if it is the value with production OFF?

< Message edited by Dili -- 5/3/2019 9:02:21 PM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Could do with a explanation of the Japanese LCU pro... - 5/3/2019 9:03:26 PM

inqistor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AleRonin

If I'm right, looking at this picture, once I have stockpiled what needed I can upgrade the specific device switching to "N".

Anyhow how the single devices will be producted? Is it random or what?

For Japan - Devices are produced only when needed, and frequently in greater number, than needed (even those with production numbers shown, will be produced as needed. There will be no shortage of paratroopers). I have never tried to stockpile anything for Japan, but just switching it to N should be enough, considering production date is still current.

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Post #: 60

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