RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/2/2019 12:44:31 PM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I did say "one of the reasons". I think I saw the King suggestion in Weinberger's book; could be wrong though. It does sound like he was in favour of it, if not the precise operational plan. Anyway I defer to your reading of the primary documents.

quote:

it appears to have had little influence on the final decision to give Mac the go-ahead for Oboe.

What do the primary documents show were the major influences?

Don't know. I only really looked at the documents covering Marshall-MacArthur and Marshall-King communications to help establish who said what on Borneo's importance and whether the need to capture its oil refineries was a major factor in the lead up to the JCS decision. The actual JCS meeting records for Mar '45 would need to looked at to establish what were the key reasons given for the approval (assuming any were listed). I made the comment that the opportunity to capture the Borneo refineries appeared to have had little influence as Marshall (who was the big boy on the JCS) had already dismissed it beforehand as justification for military action.

For example, Marshall to MacArthur, 28 Feb '45,
"In regard to Petroleum products and tankers, your message C 57530 [Borneo] of 3 February 1945, and our ARGONAUT 59 of 7 February 1945, based on Army-Navy Petroleum Board reports, there is no shortage in future availabilities important enough to demand military operations for acquisition of new oil producing areas."

But in regard to your question, from what I've read previously in authored accounts that cover Operation Oboe, finding out exactly how and why MacArthur received approval from the JCS for his Borneo venture mightn't be easy. Many authors seem genuinely puzzled by the fact that it was allowed to happen.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/2/2019 2:05:43 PM

Ian R

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It would, in hindsight, as Gavin Long points out, have been better if the AIF 9th division had been stood down, 1st Australian Armoured division shipped to Egypt as originally planned (to fight in a corps with the NZ division), and the two remaining AIF divisions reorganised to deploy as 4 to 6 jungle/mountain TOE brigade groups. Wasn't going to happen with the IJ on the doorstep, though.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/2/2019 2:09:10 PM

Gridley380

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

A cynic might also suggest King's prioritizing of the capture of Brunei was because he wanted to quickly hand the British Pacific Fleet a main operating base positioned well clear of the planned US operations against Japan in '45 as well as keeping them thievin' Brits well away from the USN's Pacific Fleet train.

The Fleet Air Arm Museum has a section on their late-war Pacific Fleet operations; someone in the USN Fleet Train was quoted as saying something like 'we'll provide anything King won't find out about.' Have to see if I can find the pictures I took...

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 1:13:33 AM

jdsrae

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Not much detail in this snipett from the AWM but suggests at the end the reasons had more to do with international politics than the military value of Borneo.
https://www.awm.gov.au/visit/exhibitions/alliesinadversity/australia/oboe

The mission of freeing allied POW and lessening the hardship on civilian population are also valid reasons in hindsight.

So there were substantial numbers of veteran AIF/RAAF asking for a fight but largely left on the bench, the Dutch asking/demanding more be done to return the DEI to their colonial rule but lacking the troops, and the US were able to support the OBOEs without interfering with their main effort in the Philippines.
I�m guessing that the main people pushing for it were Dutch and Australians rather than Americans.
I�ll definitely be reading more on the OBOEs when I get a chance.

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 8/3/2019 1:27:40 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 3:37:35 AM

Lovejoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

The Fleet Air Arm Museum has a section on their late-war Pacific Fleet operations; someone in the USN Fleet Train was quoted as saying something like 'we'll provide anything King won't find out about.' Have to see if I can find the pictures I took...

That's my understanding of the situation as well. The BPF was supposed to be entirely self-sufficient (and was to a degree, as a fair bit of material was not interchangeable with American equipment), but Nimitz and others in the Pacific were pretty good about disregarding directives from King regarding this.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 8:21:47 AM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
So there were substantial numbers of veteran AIF/RAAF asking for a fight but largely left on the bench, the Dutch asking/demanding more be done to return the DEI to their colonial rule but lacking the troops, and the US were able to support the OBOEs without interfering with their main effort in the Philippines.
I�m guessing that the main people pushing for it were Dutch and Australians rather than Americans.

The ones you mention were definitely factors championed by MacArthur but I think you might be underplaying MacArthur's own need for a (SWPA) next-big-thing after the projected invasion of the Philippines and before the next series of Army operations that would finally close the ring on the Home Islands and likely lead to the invasion of Japan. Following a successful liberation of the Philippines with a successful liberation of the DEI (or at least the valuable realestate of Borneo and Java) would keep his name prominent in the headlines and make it difficult for the Washington leadership to bypass him when considering who would lead the final US Army operations against Japan.

The fact that the Dutch were pressing for some effort to be made to retake key parts the DEI and the Australians were pressing for a greater role for their I Corps other than just more mopping up operations, aided MacArthur in putting forward his plans to the Washington leadership but on their own merits, I doubt those arguements would have led the JCS to approve any SWPA operations against Dutch territory at this stage in the Pacific War (I Corp was already reportedly being considered for a later role in the invasion of Japan). I would suggest instead that it was really the unwillingness of Washington to refuse point-blank a MacArthur "request" that led them to approve some of his plan (Oboe 1, 2 and 6) even though it went against their own strategic direction at this time. If the SWPA command had have been led by anyone other than MacArthur, Oboe would likely never have happened, regardless of Dutch and Australian pressure.

Or so the cynic in me would say.....

In regard to reading, from the US side most of the more recent Mac biographies touch on this episode (Richard Frank in his own bio of Mac is somewhat damning of the approval for Oboe). For the Australian side, I've only read Peter Stanley's "Tarakan" but it covered the evolution of the SWPA planning for Oboe in detail and I found it a very informative read.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 5:20:16 PM

rustysi

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quote:

A story on the Ghan popped into my news feed just yesterday:

Thanks for that. Maybe I'll shoot for the 100th anniversary.

quote:

Lesson learnt a few times over, it�s a bloody big country...

Ya think????

Not only that, much of it is empty AFAIK.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 5:30:42 PM

rustysi

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As for Aussie ops in Borneo, I've never played the Allies, but as far as I can tell Australia has a rather low replacement rate for both squads and equipment devices. Now at the later stages I've no idea how much these will effect their ops, as she'll have had time to allow her pools to grow. Given that and the fact that she may have needed time to recover if heavily engaged in early ops, doesn't it play to her advantage to take this avenue of approach? At least in game terms. Her forces would be providing a 'good return' in a region where she could possibly sustain ops against less opposition. Just wonderin' out loud.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/3/2019 10:08:13 PM

jdsrae

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Aus troops can be kept in the fight, helped with some withdrawals and TOE �upgrades� to jungle Divs.
Depending how much you use them means you might not be able to get all CMF Divs (1,2,3,4,5) off the mainland, but that�s historical.

I did something like this in my last allied game vs AI, mainly because I was trying to keep as many units on active ops as possible.
After clearing SOPac and PNG, I moved HQ SoPac to Darwin and concentrated Aus and NZ forces there.
Aus I & II Corps plus about 6 x NZ Bdes plus 9Gp RAAF and 1Gp RNZAF, who get Corsairs, Avengers and about six deployable base forces.
The US support was relatively limited, 13 USAAF heavy bombers and a CVE task force or two, plus lots of supply / fuel convoys.
They cleared the Darwin-Timor-Bali-Java axis then SE Borneo while the rest of SWPac cleared the north coast of Dutch NG-Mindano.

In game Aus/NZ can make a whole new Army available for ops, you just can�t move HQ 1 Aust Army with it as it�s permanently restricted.
Historically they couldn�t keep that large a force in the field, I believe mainly for economic reasons as both economies were struggling from shortage of manpower.

With all of the DEI retaken, the �problem� becomes allied Armies tripping over each other in the Pacific, but there are other options to keep them busy in SE Asia then China. It�s also for this reason I didn�t use the British Pacific Fleet in the Pacific to get tangled up with 3/5/7 US Fleets, I used it as a Far East Fleet instead.

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 8/3/2019 10:22:49 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/5/2019 9:59:55 AM

Barb

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Yup, Australia in 1944 was dealing with huge shortage of manpower - They had to support both big army in the field (garrison requirements for Bougainville, PNG from Milne Bay up to the Morotai as there were still numerous (but not much effective) Japanese formations in the interior. They had to supply pilots to both RAF squadrons and RAAF squadrons in Europe, Middle East and Australia as well as those in the field in the Pacific! Their Navy was growing as well (Not only DDs and PFs!), but a lot of little stuff.

Then they got the requirement for home-basing the BPF - huge investment in construction, material and support for the fleet and FAA. They simply did not have the required manpower. I think Australia had one of the largest (if not largest) percentage of population in the services from all the allies.

In the end they had to disband several units and squeeze whatever they can and they still had not enough. Also for the Olympic/Coronet I think only 1 AIF division was to be used - and even then retrained and reequipped with US equipment.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/5/2019 4:42:49 PM

BBfanboy

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Oz should have hired the Korean Labourers liberated when the Japanese units they were attached to were destroyed. They couldn't be returned home yet and sitting in a camp is a waste of manpower. I am sure these men would have been happy to earn some money to take with them when they returned home.
Of course there was the problem of Westerners assuming all oriental peoples could be Japanese ...

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/5/2019 10:34:48 PM

Lovejoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Oz should have hired the Korean Labourers liberated when the Japanese units they were attached to were destroyed. They couldn't be returned home yet and sitting in a camp is a waste of manpower. I am sure these men would have been happy to earn some money to take with them when they returned home.
Of course there was the problem of Westerners assuming all oriental peoples could be Japanese ...

After the Normandy landings, some American soldiers captured a Korean in German uniform. He'd been drafted by the Japanese, captured by the Soviets during the border fighting and drafted into the Red Army after Barbarossa, and was then captured by the Germans and forced into the Wehrmacht, and sent to France, before finally ending up in an American PoW camp.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/6/2019 3:39:39 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Oz should have hired the Korean Labourers liberated when the Japanese units they were attached to were destroyed. They couldn't be returned home yet and sitting in a camp is a waste of manpower. I am sure these men would have been happy to earn some money to take with them when they returned home.
Of course there was the problem of Westerners assuming all oriental peoples could be Japanese ...

After the Normandy landings, some American soldiers captured a Korean in German uniform. He'd been drafted by the Japanese, captured by the Soviets during the border fighting and drafted into the Red Army after Barbarossa, and was then captured by the Germans and forced into the Wehrmacht, and sent to France, before finally ending up in an American PoW camp.

Talk about an identity crisis! I presume he was not an effective soldier for anyone. Cook, maybe?

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/6/2019 7:27:46 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Oz should have hired the Korean Labourers liberated when the Japanese units they were attached to were destroyed. They couldn't be returned home yet and sitting in a camp is a waste of manpower. I am sure these men would have been happy to earn some money to take with them when they returned home.
Of course there was the problem of Westerners assuming all oriental peoples could be Japanese ...

After the Normandy landings, some American soldiers captured a Korean in German uniform. He'd been drafted by the Japanese, captured by the Soviets during the border fighting and drafted into the Red Army after Barbarossa, and was then captured by the Germans and forced into the Wehrmacht, and sent to France, before finally ending up in an American PoW camp.

Talk about an identity crisis! I presume he was not an effective soldier for anyone. Cook, maybe?

He could have had a great career as a chef in a French restaurant.

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RE: Semi OT : Allied corridors of advance - real life - 8/6/2019 9:44:12 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Oz should have hired the Korean Labourers liberated when the Japanese units they were attached to were destroyed. They couldn't be returned home yet and sitting in a camp is a waste of manpower. I am sure these men would have been happy to earn some money to take with them when they returned home.
Of course there was the problem of Westerners assuming all oriental peoples could be Japanese ...

After the Normandy landings, some American soldiers captured a Korean in German uniform. He'd been drafted by the Japanese, captured by the Soviets during the border fighting and drafted into the Red Army after Barbarossa, and was then captured by the Germans and forced into the Wehrmacht, and sent to France, before finally ending up in an American PoW camp.

Talk about an identity crisis! I presume he was not an effective soldier for anyone. Cook, maybe?

He could have had a great career as a chef in a French restaurant.

After the war he stayed in the U.S., and became a citizen.

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