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FOW for Naval - 11/6/2019 10:18:51 PM

canuckgamer

Posts: 737
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline

First I would like to thank Alvaro Sousa for his prompt replies and explanations as to the reasoning behind the game design of War Plan.
I just want to repeat my biggest concern in regards to FOW for the naval aspects and the possibility of a Pacific front expansion. Historically in the Pacific theater, searching and finding enemy fleets was the number one priority in almost every naval engagement. I believe the scale of the Pacific theater expansion will be 50 miles for each hex. It makes no sense that you know where every enemy naval unit is located even if they are hundreds of miles away. Even though you may not know the composition, the fact is that you know there is something there.
As a boardgamer from the days of Avalon Hill this means that "classic" games like AH Midway and Bismarck have more FOW than War Plan. The biggest benefit of a computer wargame is FOW so why not use that benefit?

Post #: 1

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 12:11:32 AM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

So consider the pacific. The Japs have 5 fleets spread out through the pacific in the obvious placed. You don't know what they are.

If they weren't on the map you would still guess they are are about in these areas and still not know what they are.

So you have either an intelligent estimate of where they are at or recon. Either way it's the same. It also gives it a real board wargame feel to see all the pieces.

What the FoW system does do extra is that it allows deception better.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to canuckgamer)

Post #: 2

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 12:46:56 AM

scout1

Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

So consider the pacific. The Japs have 5 fleets spread out through the pacific in the obvious placed. You don't know what they are.

If they weren't on the map you would still guess they are are about in these areas and still not know what they are.

So you have either an intelligent estimate of where they are at or recon. Either way it's the same. It also gives it a real board wargame feel to see all the pieces.

What the FoW system does do extra is that it allows deception better.

I hope you are right but am uneasy about it �.PH, Midway, Coral Sea and many more battles will take a drastically different flavor with War Plan �. More like chess and checkers than a game of surprise which the PTO was noted for �.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 3

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 1:55:40 AM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

Well would you rather roll dice or play a thinking man's game?

It's only scary because no one has done it before.

If it doesn't play it doesn't. Simple.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to scout1)

Post #: 4

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 3:54:39 AM

canuckgamer

Posts: 737
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

So consider the pacific. The Japs have 5 fleets spread out through the pacific in the obvious placed. You don't know what they are.

If they weren't on the map you would still guess they are are about in these areas and still not know what they are.

So you have either an intelligent estimate of where they are at or recon. Either way it's the same. It also gives it a real board wargame feel to see all the pieces.

What the FoW system does do extra is that it allows deception better.

I played a number of games of Asia Engulfed from GMT Games. It is a block game on the Pacific front. The concept is similar in that you know where blocks are but you don't know the type or strength of the blocks. It may not be a fair comparison given that it is an area movement game and not that many areas but from my experience, the blocks really didn't produce much in the way of FOW. Since you could see what area they were in, you could easily figure out where they could move to Also the number of blocks was a giveaway.
I'm also curious about transports in War Plan since as soon as you see an enemy naval unit headed toward a key island (e.g Guadalcanal) you would immediately send a naval or naval units to determine what it is. Historically I believe the Japanese tried to sneak units to Guadalcanal by moving at night but if you see every unit's location that is not possible.
If you look at the western front, how do you re-create something like German surface ships (Bismarck) trying to sneak in to the Atlantic to raid convoys when you can see the location of every German naval unit?
Anyway, I think I've expressed my concern enough and will keep an open mind on this.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 5

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 4:09:37 AM

Simulacra53

Posts: 632
Joined: 5/16/2015
Status: offline

Maybe classic FoW does not work in your game concept, but not having it is also gamey - it is a game after all.

I�d suggest a compromise - probably not possible, but for the sake of argument - where there is REAL uncertainty added.

1. Some enemy units are in full FoW
2. Some are partially detected, meaning their position is roughly known within a radius - ideally the less info the larger the radius.
3. position known, not full composition and strength

1 & 2 would certainly fit naval criteria and enemy forces deep in enemy territory - including air assets.

This would also allow elements like reconnaissance (aerial, naval etc) and intelligence gathering.
Air defense would also be an element - stronger AD, less aerial reconnaissance.
Range is a hard factor here, so no range, only intelligence gathering.

< Message edited by Simulacra53 -- 11/7/2019 4:14:14 AM >

(in reply to canuckgamer)

Post #: 6

RE: FOW for Naval - 11/7/2019 12:12:46 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

That is something I have considered

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Simulacra53)

Post #: 7