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Gary Grigsby/Joel Billings interview - 7/16/2003 6:24:32 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi folks

You can find it here

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/grisby_billings_interview/

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Post #: 1
- 7/16/2003 7:04:58 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Provided you have a password. :D

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Post #: 2
- 7/16/2003 7:47:42 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		Try here:

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/grigsby_billings_interview/

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-----------------------------
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Post #: 3
- 7/16/2003 8:20:31 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Great read ! Interesting to read that the AI is causing so much trouble. This game is going to be a monster.......but as for those small Scen...sod that I want to play from '41 till the end!:D

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Post #: 4
- 7/16/2003 9:22:19 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slick91
[B]Try here:

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/grigsby_billings_interview/ [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Slick

Nice that you corrected my mistake:o

Good interview eh?

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Post #: 5
Bad News ? - 7/16/2003 9:26:43 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		Perhaps I`m wrong but it sounds like you can kiss the single huge 1941 - 1945 Campaign goodby and there going for separate Campaign Scenarios 1941 - 1945 .......any input on that Matrix ?

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Post #: 6
- 7/16/2003 9:27:36 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Who needs AI? Witp like uv is basicly multiplayer only.;) AI is the one time starting tutorial.

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Post #: 7
Re: Bad News ? - 7/16/2003 9:34:06 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Black Cat
[B]Perhaps I`m wrong but it sounds like you can kiss the single huge 1941 - 1945 Campaign goodby and there going for separate Campaign Scenarios 1941 - 1945 .......any input on that Matrix ? [/B][/QUOTE]

The impression Gary left on me in this interview is that creating an AI for WitP vs UV is a huge difference and difficult job but that he is working his butt off on it. We are many months off still and thsi interview was done in May 2003 ( at E3 correct me if I am wrong please)

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Post #: 8
- 7/16/2003 9:51:43 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Bah! The only REAL scenario starts on Dec 7 and ends
with Japan surrender

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Post #: 9
- 7/16/2003 9:55:37 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]and ends
with Japan surrender [/B][/QUOTE]

This will sound crazy but I expect not to loose as the IJN PBEM, no not from testing experience, but my ego tells me so:D

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Post #: 10
- 7/16/2003 10:34:46 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline 		What I see after reading the interview is that we will all play pbem games after a couple of runs with the AI. That is not bad in itself, as my best experiences in UV have been PBEM, win or loose.
But the ability to edit all those parameters is definitely making me salivate... it will be the grandest of games.

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Post #: 11
- 7/17/2003 12:56:34 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]This will sound crazy but I expect not to loose as the IJN PBEM, no not from testing experience, but my ego tells me so[/B]

We'll see how you feel after the first fire bombing raid I drop on Tokyo with B-29s. :)

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Post #: 12
- 7/17/2003 1:42:41 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kitakami
[B]What I see after reading the interview is that we will all play pbem games after a couple of runs with the AI. That is not bad in itself, as my best experiences in UV have been PBEM, win or loose.
But the ability to edit all those parameters is definitely making me salivate... it will be the grandest of games. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you edit though you won't be able to play PBEM and will have to fight against the AI.:)

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Post #: 13
- 7/17/2003 1:50:21 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B][B]This will sound crazy but I expect not to loose as the IJN PBEM, no not from testing experience, but my ego tells me so[/B]

We'll see how you feel after the first fire bombing raid I drop on Tokyo with B-29s. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Is that a challenge mr Sniggelsworth?:)

Anyway you have to take Saipan first to do that and you never will;)

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Post #: 14
- 7/17/2003 1:55:50 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I'll settle for a semi-active AI in this game. In old Pacwar, the AI would make its initial thrust and then go to bed, never venturing out to play after Feb. 1942. Although like all games this size a competant AI is probably impossible, it would be nice to see one that at least stays active for the duration.

But we all know we'll be playing PBEM within a month or two of getting the hang of it - that's not a bad thing in my mind.

I'm still psyched. I do wonder though - this project Gary's heading off to work on for a few months... Could it be UV-Med? Dare I even say it?

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Post #: 15
- 7/17/2003 2:03:21 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]I'm still psyched. I do wonder though - this project Gary's heading off to work on for a few months... Could it be UV-Med? Dare I even say it?[/B]

I doubt he would start on episode III while episode II was still incomplete.

I'm curious whether he sees UV Med as a huge scale type of game, which he stated he would avoid in the future. Of course it doesn't compare to something like WitP...but it would still be a large scale game and require adding a lot of features.

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"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 16
- 7/17/2003 2:10:17 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Perhaps there can be a PBEM ONLY release of WitP cause we are not getting any younger here ... Perhaps direct mail order from Matrix Games only, followed by the AI patch later in time when it is actually ready.

I know the general gaming community will not buy it in the retail channels, but there is at least a couple hundred of us here who would buy an non-AI version up front.

It is also quite possible that all the feedback from these folks would help produce a better AI anyways, as we are mostly evil folks who like figuring out ways to bust the AI to get an advantage :cool:

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Post #: 17
- 7/17/2003 2:11:38 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Maybe the new project is really a tan or something.:) You know these programmers...:D

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 18
- 7/17/2003 2:23:17 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]Maybe the new project is really a tan or something.:) You know these programmers...:D [/B][/QUOTE]

It's so nice to have Ron back on the forum is it not?:) Best humor in the wargaming business

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Post #: 19
AI - 7/17/2003 3:14:44 AM   
decourcy

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I am posting for Gary and Joel for the most part as I do not want them to feel like they have let us down with a mediocre AI. I don't actually give a flying rats *** about AI in a game like this except as a learning tool.
I think the vast majority of us here understand strategic AI doesn't exist and probably will not within our lifetimes (if ever). As long as the AI can do a so-so job on small map scenarios I am happy.

This, of course is the reason to make strategic games turn based instead of real time like EU. Turn based are so much easier to play online(email).

I also don't care particularly about the graphics; oh, I love nice graphics when I see them but it will not affect my purchase of this game.

My one hope and fear is the game database. Gary's games have a record of having databases that were extremely easy to corrupt. I really hope he finds ways to solidify his DB for WitP. Probably the first thing I will do with WitP is start making my own scenarios, it is just what I do! :)
but if the DB can't handle it, what is the point?

Don't get me wrong, I will still buy this even if the instruction manual is written in crayon and the game is all on 3.5" disks. Not 5.25" disks though.;)

Mike

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Post #: 20
Re: AI - 7/17/2003 3:43:44 AM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by decourcy
[B]Hi all,

I am posting for Gary and Joel for the most part as I do not want them to feel like they have let us down with a mediocre AI. I don't actually give a flying rats *** about AI in a game like this except as a learning tool.
I think the vast majority of us here understand strategic AI doesn't exist and probably will not within our lifetimes (if ever). As long as the AI can do a so-so job on small map scenarios I am happy.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Matrix is going to make good sales of WitP, it’s commercial project after all. All we here are unable to provide sufficient sales, even if we will buy 2 copies each. That’s why they have to polish AI, and they will do it, one tiny line about ‘reliable and really smart AI’ in reviews and on WitP box, will give Matrix several thousands of new customers. 200 000$ - worth trying?

But no doubt, pbem is the only way to go in the case with WitP. I wonder how long it will take to finish grand campaign? 1400 turns or so, with 1-3 turns per day (some turns, as Mogami said can take up to 4 hours to complete) I’ll be lucky to finish it in two years.

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Post #: 21
- 7/17/2003 4:16:20 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Actually, consider what Gary and Joel were saying about the AI. It's not just the strategy, it's the logistics. Is anyone planning on giving orders to 3000+ freighters for Japan? Even more for the Allies? I doubt it's just a matter of releasing an "AI-less" game early. It sounds like it's taking a considerable amout of effort just to get the mundane convoy system in (and it doesn't surprise me either).

-F-

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Post #: 22
Re: Re: AI - 7/17/2003 5:40:12 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Subchaser
[B]Matrix is going to make good sales of WitP, it’s commercial project after all. All we here are unable to provide sufficient sales, even if we will buy 2 copies each. That’s why they have to polish AI, and they will do it, one tiny line about ‘reliable and really smart AI’ in reviews and on WitP box, will give Matrix several thousands of new customers. 200 000$ - worth trying?[/B][/QUOTE]

Absolutely right. Surveys have shown that over 70 percent of wargames, both print and computer, are played solitaire. While the "real" game, as we know, is in the human-vs-human arena, there just aren't enough of us who play that way to sustain the hobby.

A perfect example of a game that got it right is "Galactic Civilizations," which was criticized prior to its release for not having a multi-player mode. It ate MoO3 for lunch and pleased the critics so much that other companies have taken notice and are planning games that pit the human player against the AI - even when the AI is handling multiple "players" (EiA designers, take note). I strongly suggest that Matrix/2by3 look into what Brad Wardell and company have done and see whether similar approaches to AI design can be incorporated into their games.

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Re: Re: Re: AI - 7/17/2003 7:42:46 AM   
wobbly

 

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pasternakski
[B]A perfect example of a game that got it right is "Galactic Civilizations," which was criticized prior to its release for not having a multi-player mode. It ate MoO3 for lunch and pleased the critics so much that other companies have taken notice and are planning games that pit the human player against the AI - even when the AI is handling multiple "players" (EiA designers, take note). I strongly suggest that Matrix/2by3 look into what Brad Wardell and company have done and see whether similar approaches to AI design can be incorporated into their games. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bravo! You stole the example I was going to use right out of my mouth (or off my finger tips as it were): Galactic Civilisations AI is actually quite difficult to overcome - they are constantly making improvements and all of those via player information when they log their best scores - very clever!

However, I fully agree with Frag; they (Matrix) have a very loyal and, dare I utter it, honest group of players dedicated to UV as it stands. I would have thought they could utilise that resource as a testbed for their commercial release in a PBEM only version.

This obviously requires the mechanical AI to be formulated (this is a WEGO game after all so we all require an AI of sorts).

We pay full amount for the unfinished product and then only play others in the "PBEM only" fraternity. We then can update to the commercial version later...

Matrix could even control who we play by allocating a serial number per game kind of copyright control. i.e I tell Matrix I am going to play Herbie - they generate a serial number that we both have to use - we are only playing PBEM so we both need a "game specific" decode key.

As decourcy says: the Ai is only a learning tool anyway - for most of us teh similarities will be close enough to roll straight into PBEM gaming!

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Post #: 24
- 7/17/2003 9:30:56 AM   
CommC

 

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
Status: offline 		Gulp .... the interview says the AI vs AI of the full WITP main campaign 41-45 takes 4 days of computing time....

lets see .... 4 years of one day turns.... 1400 some odd turns at 4 hrs per turn thats 730 gaming days at 8 hrs per day. So playing everyday, all day 8 hours a day, it will take 2 years to finish a game. Hummm.

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Post #: 25
- 7/17/2003 10:08:01 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by CommC
[B]Gulp .... the interview says the AI vs AI of the full WITP main campaign 41-45 takes 4 days of computing time....

lets see .... 4 years of one day turns.... 1400 some odd turns at 4 hrs per turn thats 730 gaming days at 8 hrs per day. So playing everyday, all day 8 hours a day, it will take 2 years to finish a game. Hummm. [/B][/QUOTE]

....................and the problem with that is???????????:D :D

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Post #: 26
time - 7/17/2003 10:12:09 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, My fastest orders phase for 1 turn was 26 minutes. I cycled everybase and checked my TF's and airgroups. (Mostly all I did was look nod OK and go to next base/unit/TF) Once I get things organized the way I like my turns go pretty smoothly. (But oh those first few turns)

I'm starting a PBEM game with Nik. I'm to be the Allies. He sent the first turn. I spent 6-7 hours going through every hex and looking at everything and giving orders. I sent it back. He sent turn 2 and I have forgotten (or miss typed) my password. I have to do the whole first turn again.

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Post #: 27
- 7/17/2003 2:55:46 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I've allowed my life to be controlled by PBEM... but I will go one step further... I offer myself to anyone who wants a WitP PBEM game... obviously, we're talking months off.. but you name it, I got it... Long live PBEM and long live the USA

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Post #: 28
- 7/17/2003 8:56:10 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		I dont want to sound negative but.....

First, someone has to explain to me 3000+ Japanese merchant ships.

Second, Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that interview is an attempt to prepare us for a possible change in direction for WitP. From a grand campaign game to some sort of MegaPack of individual UV type games?

Worried:(

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Post #: 29
- 7/17/2003 9:02:17 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by TIMJOT
[B]I dont want to sound negative but.....

First, someone has to explain to me 3000+ Japanese merchant ships.

Second, Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that interview is an attempt to prepare us for a possible change in direction for WitP. From a grand campaign game to some sort of MegaPack of individual UV type games?

Worried:( [/B][/QUOTE]

They clearly said it would ship with many scenarios but that the customers would most likely get down to playing the massive campaign as customers did, including myself, with 12'O Clock High. I only played the massive campaign in that game and they suspect most customers will do the same in this one....because what we all really want is EVERYTHING:D

Oh and no need to worry I'm a tester and there are 1941-45, 1942-1945, 1943-1945 and 1944-45 campaigns currently in our alpha version

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