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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> number of ships

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number of ships - 8/1/2003 6:15:17 AM

mogami

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Oh now we have a new set of numbers. Ships sunk by other causes includes trawlers (often very small under 300t) and there were 6k of them in WW2. (They were used for coastal traffic. Many were used in ASW roles. My source (a trawler page) states there were 6,000 trawler crewmen (and women) in 1939 on 600 ships and by wars end there were 66,000 crew on 6k ships.

These trawlers get listed in the sunk ship totals but were not part of 3k merchant fleet. (Many non U-boat non Atlantic ships sunk were this type)

This results in a problem

a U-boat torpedos and sinks 1 9kt ship in mid atlantic.
a Ocean tug of 80t hits a mine and sinks
a JU-88 bombs and sinks a trawler 300t

totals for day 3 ships 9380t. But only the 9kt ship really impacts the overall picture.

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Post #: 271

Re: Re: ships - 8/1/2003 6:16:31 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pry
[B]Ok I think I now know what you are looking for...

September 3 1939
U-26 Lays minefield which sinks 3 ships of 17414 tons
U-27 sinks 2 ships of 624 tons
U-28 sinks 1 ship of 4955 tons
U-29 sinks 3 ships of 19405 tons
U-30 sinks 2 ships of 9625 tons

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

If this is what you are looking for I have the info but it going to take a while and I mean long while to compile it all thru 1941 [/B][/QUOTE]

You're getting paid by the hour aren't you? :D

Besides, hammering away on the keyboard is great finger therapy - hehe

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Post #: 272

Re: Re: Re: ships - 8/1/2003 6:29:59 AM

pry

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]You're getting paid by the hour aren't you? :D

Besides, hammering away on the keyboard is great finger therapy - hehe [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually no...:D

Self employed doing computer repair, networking and web hosting and I also run a very large naval history web site which is why I can pop in and out of this forum all day long. I already spend all day working on my "Finger Therapy"

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Post #: 273

Re: Re: ships - 8/1/2003 6:38:01 AM

Von Rom

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EDIT: DP

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Post #: 274

Re: Re: Re: ships - 8/1/2003 6:40:06 AM

Von Rom

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Not sure what happened in that above post :confused:

pry:

That's why you have access to so much info.

Excellent.

Is that your fingers I hear typing. . . ?

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Post #: 275

Re: number of ships - 8/1/2003 6:45:38 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Oh now we have a new set of numbers. Ships sunk by other causes includes trawlers (often very small under 300t) and there were 6k of them in WW2. (They were used for coastal traffic. Many were used in ASW roles. My source (a trawler page) states there were 6,000 trawler crewmen (and women) in 1939 on 600 ships and by wars end there were 66,000 crew on 6k ships.

These trawlers get listed in the sunk ship totals but were not part of 3k merchant fleet. (Many non U-boat non Atlantic ships sunk were this type)

This results in a problem

a U-boat torpedos and sinks 1 9kt ship in mid atlantic.
a Ocean tug of 80t hits a mine and sinks
a JU-88 bombs and sinks a trawler 300t

totals for day 3 ships 9380t. But only the 9kt ship really impacts the overall picture. [/B][/QUOTE]

Even if we allow for 100 sunk trawlers (many of whom were converted to be small destroyers and sub chasers), that would still leave a total of about 2400 to 2500 Allied ships sunk between 1939 to Dec/1941.

Also, the loss a trawler means that an area will then be open for U-boats to enter and lay mines, torpedo ships, etc which would have importance for both Germany and Britain.

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Post #: 276

Back up - 8/1/2003 7:11:46 AM

mogami

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Hi, The trawlers did not operate any where U-boats actually did.
The U-boat was confined to the mid Atlantic gap. After the fall of France they outflanked the RN and had bases that allowed them the range to operate outside aircover. We don't find too many U-boats operating in the confined waters. (They also hit mines. )
Of course the RN did not know this and maintained ASW patrols.
The trawlers also fought E-boats and mounted AA.
When you look at ships sunk UK waters you don't find too many U-boats after mid 40. But the bulk of the ships lost in these waters also did not belong in the vital ocean going merchant catagory (where they are always quoted)

Only ships capable of trans ocean movement should be listed in our study.

These are the ships the U-boats were after. We don't need to include "U-** surfaced off Norway on Apr 7 and sank 6 Norwegian fishing boats and MG'd the crews and later list these boats as part of a 5k ship sunk total.

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Post #: 277

Re: Back up - 8/1/2003 7:22:34 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, The trawlers did not operate any where U-boats actually did.
The U-boat was confined to the mid Atlantic gap. After the fall of France they outflanked the RN and had bases that allowed them the range to operate outside aircover. We don't find too many U-boats operating in the confined waters. (They also hit mines. )
Of course the RN did not know this and maintained ASW patrols.
The trawlers also fought E-boats and mounted AA.
When you look at ships sunk UK waters you don't find too many U-boats after mid 40. But the bulk of the ships lost in these waters also did not belong in the vital ocean going merchant catagory (where they are always quoted)

Only ships capable of trans ocean movement should be listed in our study.

These are the ships the U-boats were after. We don't need to include "U-** surfaced off Norway on Apr 7 and sank 6 Norwegian fishing boats and MG'd the crews and later list these boats as part of a 5k ship sunk total. [/B][/QUOTE]

Many trawlers were used early on by Britain (due to lack of destroyers) for convoy escort. Some trawlers actually sank U-boats. And vice-versa.

Here's a site that has more details:

http://uboat.net/allies/ships/trawlers.htm

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Post #: 278

old ideas - 8/1/2003 7:30:41 AM

mogami

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Hi, There are still some old items that need to be cleared up so we can all be on the same page. I don't like to drag up old items but we have to all agree on the time frame for Germany defeating Britain. (It has to be before USA enters war)

"USA

While a world war raged for almost 3 years, from 1939 to Dec of 1941; while ALL of western Europe had been conquered; while Britain fought for its life; and while the USSR was almost brought to its knees; the USA had remained isolationist, and had a military that ranked 18th in the world, behind Holland.

Do you really think this would have improved if there were 3 years of peace?"

Did you believe this when you posted it? You do know the USA began the draft in 1940. (Planning to build the structure to support 12 million men in arms) We've posted the ship building programs for 39-41. The USA spent 300 million adding 150 brand new slips for ship building (and expanded existing shipyards as well) Another 3 years and Japan would not have declared war (they did it in 41 because they knew it would be too late in 43)

There is no way to imagine the surrender of any Allied nation after the USA enters the war. Historically the war is lost for Japan 6 months after it begins. And the U-boats are not even important (except as minor risks) 18months after USA enters.
(They achive a brief moment of terror in 43 and then get squashed)

No Britain must be defeated prior to Dec 41

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Post #: 279

trawlers - 8/1/2003 7:43:38 AM

mogami

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"Many trawlers were used early on by Britain (due to lack of destroyers) for convoy escort. Some trawlers actually sank U-boats. And vice-versa."

Hi, Interesting but unimportant. What is important is these small non merchant ships get included in ship sunk totals but no where else. And they do not carry cargo. After 1940 they still are sunk at same rate as before but they are not really part of battle of Atlantic. Saying 5000 ships were sunk in war is interesting.
I'm looking for xxxx ships that carried cargo were sunk during war. Tonnage of ships sunk, tonnage available on any given day from 1 Sept 39 to 9 Dec 1941.
These are the numbers that will tell us how close Britian is to defeat.

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Post #: 280

Game - 8/1/2003 7:51:34 AM

mogami

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Hi, This would make a great war game. "Battle of Atlantic"
Every ship in from 1939 to 1941 ASW and Anti ship Aircraft.

Britain begins with it's stockpile. It consumes 130,000 tons per day. When daily consumption not met Britain surrenders.

No Land combat. Germany gets bases on date they historicaly became available.

German player can alter starting number and quality of U-boats and production /training rates.

All you'd need are really large maps (the land detail is not important just size and location of airfields and naval bases and ports)

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Post #: 281

Heard this one before? - 8/1/2003 8:06:08 AM

mogami

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Hi, I remember last year I was playing darts at the VFW and some fellow watching "Battle of the Bulge" (you know the Henry Fonda in the Ardennes desert movie)
said "The Germans would have won the war if they had raised another 20 panzer divisions"

I kept quiet

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Post #: 282

Re: old ideas - 8/1/2003 8:11:37 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, There are still some old items that need to be cleared up so we can all be on the same page. I don't like to drag up old items but we have to all agree on the time frame for Germany defeating Britain. (It has to be before USA enters war)

"USA

While a world war raged for almost 3 years, from 1939 to Dec of 1941; while ALL of western Europe had been conquered; while Britain fought for its life; and while the USSR was almost brought to its knees; the USA had remained isolationist, and had a military that ranked 18th in the world, behind Holland.

Do you really think this would have improved if there were 3 years of peace?"

Did you believe this when you posted it? You do know the USA began the draft in 1940. (Planning to build the structure to support 12 million men in arms) We've posted the ship building programs for 39-41. The USA spent 300 million adding 150 brand new slips for ship building (and expanded existing shipyards as well) Another 3 years and Japan would not have declared war (they did it in 41 because they knew it would be too late in 43)

There is no way to imagine the surrender of any Allied nation after the USA enters the war. Historically the war is lost for Japan 6 months after it begins. And the U-boats are not even important (except as minor risks) 18months after USA enters.
(They achive a brief moment of terror in 43 and then get squashed)

No Britain must be defeated prior to Dec 41 [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, you really had to reach back to find this one.

Itching to win an argument are we?

OK, I'll bite.

What I stated above in your quote is the condition of things even before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour.

That being:

1) Hitler attacked Poland

2) Hitler attacked Denmark, Belgium, etc.

3) Hitler attacked France

4) Allied troops barely got away from Dunkirk

5) Hitler bombs British cities mercilessly (more than 60,000 British citizens die from aerial bombardment)

6) Hitler attacks British and neutral shipping (2500 ships go to the bottom)

7) Churchill pleads for USA intervention for two years

8) Hitler invades the USSR - 3 million Soviet soldiers killed or captured.

After all this, the USA is STILL isolationist (with some minor intervention).

How would three years of peace (1939-1942) have made any difference?

The US instituted the draft only AFTER war had started in Europe. Roosevelt called for an increase of 227,000 for the Regular Army and to 235,000 for the National Guard. And NOT the 12 million you have incorrectly stated.

By October 1941 the military planned for an army of 1.5 million. By the end of 1942, the Army's strength was at 5.4 million.

And all nations plan ahead for major shipbuilding projects. That's nothing new.

The USA entered the Pacific War BECAUSE Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

It was Hitler who DECLARED WAR on the USA on Dec 11. 1941, and NOT the USA declaring war on Germany.

I have no doubt that EVENTUALLY the USA would have gotten into the war on its own. But the American people were still staunchly isolationist and Roosevelt knew it. It could have been many, many more months before America entered the war on its own, and who knows what might have happened in the meantime.

As it stood, once Dec 7, 1941 rolled around, it still took the USA and other Allies a couple years to build up their armed forces to defeat the Axis. Example, the turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic came in May, 1943 - one and a half years after Pearl Harbour.

And yes, Britain could have been defeated before 1941.

I can't help what the record of history leaves in its path.

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Post #: 283

- 8/1/2003 8:12:10 AM

pry

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Mogami, I want to be sure this is what you want before I get to far into this...it is a pain but doable. This 1st part covers September 1939

Some are listed on exact days others during periods of time (EX. Sept.2 -Oct-1)

Sept 2 1939
Aircraft sink Polish vessels Gdynie (538) and Gdansk (538)
RN Capture German merchant Hannah Boge (2377)
U30 sinks Passenger liner Athenia (13581)

Sept 3 - Oct 3
U26 3 ships (17414) (laid minefield)
U27 sinks 2 ships (624 total)
U28 1 ship (4955)
U29 3 ships (19405)* This also counts the tonnage for the Carrier Couragous which makes little sense as she is listed at 22,500 ** Nevermind rechecked 3 ships (19405) plus bagged the Carrier
U30 2 ships (9625)
U31 2 ships (8706)
U32 2 ships (5738)
U33 3 ships (5914)
U34 2 ships (11357), also takes 1 ship (2534) as prize
U35 4 ships (7850)
U53 2 ships (14018)
U27 Sunk (9-22)
U38 2 ships (16698) also brings in 2 prizes (2172)
U47 3 ships (8270)
U48 3 ships (14777)

3-6 September
U13 2 ships (11301) (laid minefield)
U15 2 ships (4274) (laid minefield)

3-17 Sept
U39 Sunk (9-14)

4 September
Kosti (3933) (general cargo)(Greece by mine)

15 September
U31 1 ship Aviemore (general cargo)(4060) in convoy OB4 (1st convoy loss of war)

15 Sept - 4 Oct
U3 2 ships (2348)
U4 3 ships (5133)
U6 1 ship (3378)
U7 3 ships (5892)
U36 2 ships (2813)

25 September - 23 October
U12 Sunk (10-8 mine)
U40 Sunk (10-13 mine)
U16 Sunk (10-15 mine)

30 September
Admiral Graf Spee 1 ship Clement (general cargo)(5051)
Deutschland, 1 ship Stonegate (general cargo)(5044)

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Post #: 284

Re: Re: old ideas - 8/1/2003 8:41:06 AM

mogami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]Well, you really had to reach back to find this one.

Itching to win an argument are we?

After all this, the USA is STILL isolationist (with some minor intervention). Its army has the word "Tank" printed on the side of army trucks when it does training.

The USA entered the Pacific War BECAUSE Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

It was Hitler who DECLARED WAR on the USA on Dec 11. 1941, and NOT the USA declaring war on Germany.

I can't help what the record of history leaves in its path. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, I'm not in an argument. I'm searching for truth. It seems it takes a bit of struggle to root it out from underneath perception ,myth, and mystery.

Check your polls again. (I expect a full report)
1936 USA strongly isolationist
1940 USA knows war is coming
1941 USA public has turned 180 from 1936 and believes USA should get into European war (Pacific war comes as a surprise and shock to non military)

The �Old Ironsides� Division was organised at the American home of armour and cavalry, Fort Knox, Kentucky, July 15, 1940, and Maj. Gen. Bruce McGruder was chosen as the first commander of the new division. McGruder gave the division its nickname, �Old Ironsides�, after noting similarities between the frigate, the U.S.S. Constitution, with its thick oak hull, and the protection afforded by armoured vehicles. McGruder envisioned that the newly formed 1st Armoured Division would be as instrumental in land warfare as the �Constitution� was in naval conflicts.

Blood and Guts: This nickname was given to General George S. Patton at Ft. Benning, Ga. .in 1940. This was the result of officers training school when General Patton was the Commanding General of the 2nd Armored. He had been telling the officers that they would soon be up to their necks in blood and guts
2nd AD Activated 15 Jul 1940

3rd AD Activated 15 Apr 41

4th AD Activated 15 Apr 41

5th AD Activated 10 Oct 41

The USA was getting ready.

You really don't want to count 1940 Inf div (or you would not have posted USA was 18th in 1940)(1939 maybe 1940 no. We are already large (but untrained)

The USA conducted it's first offensive in Aug 1942
Dec,Jan,Feb,Mar,Apr,May,Jun,July (9th month of war) And followed it with another on the other side of the world while the first was still underway. (Watch Tower and Torch)

The USA was not as unready or as unwilling to fight as often portrayed. (The thing is perception. We had a military in 1940 that many countries would loved to have had. But this was the US Military. So it was not as large or as well equiped and trained as Americans demanded it to be. I personally think it could have been much smaller and still won both wars. But I like the "more you use the less you lose" approach.

If you sink the entire 1939 USN and then only take ships actually finished or laid down by Dec 7 1941 you get a navy larger then all but 2 then in existence. (Britain and Japan)

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Post #: 285

Pry - 8/1/2003 8:57:53 AM

mogami

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Hi, Thats the ticket. Now if we can only find the starting totals and do the subtraction (and addition) as we go we will know what is floating on any given day. Then we can devise how much slack there was.
The tonnage is excellent can it be broken down further?

Dry cargo ship, tanker, troop ship, etc. What type are critical to Britain. Tankers for certain and specific cargo types. Liners I don't think matter much (they would for operations needing troop movement but not for our 130,000 tons per day to Britain)

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Post #: 286

Re: Pry - 8/1/2003 9:25:12 AM

pry

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Thats the ticket. Now if we can only find the starting totals and do the subtraction (and addition) as we go we will know what is floating on any given day. Then we can devise how much slack there was. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok here is the numbers I have I'll add more if I find them
Hulls/Tonnage for the major belligerents in 1939

Allied
Belguim 200/408,014
Commonwealth 2255/3,110,791
Denmark 705/1,174,944
France 1231/2,933,933
Greece 607/1,780,666
Netherlands 1523/2,969,578
Norway 1987/4,833,813
UK 6722/17,891,134
US 2345/8,909,892 *1939 number
Axis
Germany 2459/4,482,662
Italy 1227/3,424,804
Japan 1609/5,996,607 *1941 number

[QUOTE] [B]The tonnage is excellent can it be broken down further?
Dry cargo ship, tanker, troop ship, etc. What type are critical to Britain. Tankers for certain and specific cargo types. Liners I don't think matter much (they would for operations needing troop movement but not for our 130,000 tons per day to Britain) [/B][/QUOTE]

The source sometimes lists types most not, after this 1st batch at the start of the war things slowed down they started listing each ship by name I can cross reference against The Worlds Merchant Fleets 1939 and get a type it's just gona take longer but again doable.

*I edited my September list to add types for named ships

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Post #: 287

Re: trawlers - 8/1/2003 9:42:03 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]"Many trawlers were used early on by Britain (due to lack of destroyers) for convoy escort. Some trawlers actually sank U-boats. And vice-versa."

Hi, Interesting but unimportant. What is important is these small non merchant ships get included in ship sunk totals but no where else. And they do not carry cargo. After 1940 they still are sunk at same rate as before but they are not really part of battle of Atlantic. Saying 5000 ships were sunk in war is interesting.
I'm looking for xxxx ships that carried cargo were sunk during war. Tonnage of ships sunk, tonnage available on any given day from 1 Sept 39 to 9 Dec 1941.
These are the numbers that will tell us how close Britian is to defeat. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good luck. I hope pry is staying healthy and takes care of those poor fingers. :)

But again - the number of ships are not what is important - it's the amount of cargo that reaches Britain.

Even Blair concedes that Britain's import levels reached critical lows in 1940 and 1941.

Example: When Holland is over-run, it may have 200 tankers. But as we all know those 200 tankers are not sitting in the English Channel. They are scattered over all the world's oceans. When Holland is defeated, those ships will probably make their way to a friendly port (where-ever that is - Singapore, South Africa, etc), and probably will be out of service for some time (months) before everything is co-ordinated to use them. Even then, those ships will have to travel to another port, pick up cargo, then travel to Britain, which could take another month or two.

Even then, there will be competing interests for those tankers: do they go to Britain? To North Africa? To Singapore? To Hong Kong?

Saying there are 200 Dutch tankers available in May 1940, on the face of it, tells us nothing about the state of Britain's economy.

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Post #: 288

Well find out - 8/1/2003 9:48:10 AM

mogami

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"Saying there are 200 Dutch tankers available in May 1940, on the face of it, tells us nothing about the state of Britain's economy"

Hi. That might be true. But if in Oct 1940 we see the SS Molly B (formerly the Dutch or Norwegian, or Polish what not) Sank by U-boat while part of Convoy blah blah we'll know it was active.

I'm going to dig up lists of each convoy by ship name and type. when and where it sailed.

I for one am finished with generic stats like 5000k ships of 20mt.
(it tells me nothing except a lot of ships went down)

I wish I could find figures for how much of what was on hand in Blighty day by day. (How much oil, iron, whatnot)

I already have a complete list of US Merchant ships. Where and when and by what sank or damaged. (But for me these do not matter since our U-boats have to win war before these ships ever get sank)

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Post #: 289

Re: Well find out - 8/1/2003 9:52:21 AM

Von Rom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]"Saying there are 200 Dutch tankers available in May 1940, on the face of it, tells us nothing about the state of Britain's economy"

Hi. That might be true. But if in Oct 1940 we see the SS Molly B (formerly the Dutch or Norwegian, or Polish what not) Sank by U-boat while part of Convoy blah blah we'll know it was active.

I'm going to dig up lists of each convoy by ship name and type. when and where it sailed.

I for one am finished with generic stats like 5000k ships of 20mt.
(it tells me nothing except a lot of ships went down)

I wish I could find figures for how much of what was on hand in Blighty day by day. (How much oil, iron, whatnot)

I already have a complete list of US Merchant ships. Where and when and by what sank or damaged. (But for me these do not matter since our U-boats have to win war before these ships ever get sank) [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, it sounds like a daunting task.

Be sure to keep all your info. It might come in handy should Matrix decide to do a wargame based on this period and area.

Cheers!

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Post #: 290

- 8/1/2003 9:57:52 AM

pry

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One more thing and then I'll get back to my little job ;)

According to my sources this is what the UK was importing in 1939

In metric Tons
Oil 11,628,000
Iron Ore 5,200,000
Iron & Steel 1,820,000
Scrap Iron 605,000
Bauxite 302,000
Lead 334,000
Tin 54,000
Zinc 167,000
Rubber 69,000
Rice 143,000
Peas & Beans 135,000
Wheat 5,300,000

She was also importing the following but I can find no hard numbers

Copper, Nickel, Manganese, Tungsten, Chromium, Molybdenum, Magnesite, Sulpher & Pyrites, Phosphates and Potash

Foodstuffs
Maize, Sugar and Meat

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Post #: 291

ships sunk - 8/1/2003 9:58:38 AM

mogami

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Complete list of tankers for war (Royal Navy oilers and tankers) Not merchant tankers

Ship name (tonnage year built) cause of loss

ALBERT L ELLSWORTH (8,309t, 1937) Sunk by U-boat off W Africa. Date approximate, 43/01/08

ALCIDES (R, 7,634t, 1930) Sunk by Japanese Raider, Indian Ocean. Date approximate, 43/08/02

ALDERSDALE (8,402t, 1937). Sunk, cause unknown, Barents Sea, Arctic, 42/05/26

ANDREA BROVIG (R, 10,173t, 1940). Sunk by U-boat, West Indies, 42/06/23

BELITA (R, 6,323t, 1933). Sunk by U-boat, off Socotra, Arabian Sea, 42/12/03

BETH (R, 6,852t, 1930). Sun by U-boat off Barbados, West Indies, 42/05/18

BIRCHOL (1,115t, 1917) Wrecked off Hebrides, W of Scotland, 39/11/29

BOARDALE (8,400t, 1937) Grounded at Narvik, Norway and sunk, 40/04/30

CAIRNDALE (8,129t, 1939) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, W of Gibraltar Straits, 41/05/30

CIRCLE SHELL (R, 8,207t, 1931). Sunk by U-boat off Venezuela, 42/02/21

DARKDALE (8,145t, 15/11/40) Sunk by explosion, believed torpedoed by U-boat, St Helena, South Atlantic, 41/10/22

DINSDALE (8,250t, 11th April 1942). Sunk by U-boat torpedo, South Atlantic, 42/05/31

FINNANGER (R, 9,551t, 1928). Sunk by U-boat, North Atlantic, 42/02/24

FRANCOL (2,623t, 1917). Sunk by gunfire of Japanese surface craft, S of Java, 42/03/03

HALLANGER (R, 9,551, 1928) Sunk by U-boat, W Mediterranean, 43/03/30

HAVSTEN (R, 6,161t, 1930). Sunk by U-boat, West Atlantic, 42/08/03

JOHN P PEDERSEN (R, 6,128t, 1930) Sunk by U-boat, N Atlantic, 41/05/20

LEIV EIRIKSSON (R, 9,952t, 1936). Sunk by U-boat, West Indies, 42/06/27

LITIOPA (R, 5,356, 1917) Sunk by U-boat off W Africa, 43/10/22

MALMANGER (R, 7,078t, 1920). Sunk by U-boat off West Africa, 42/08/09

MARIT (R, 5,542t, 1918) Sank by U-boat off Benghazi, Libya, 43/10/04

MINISTER WEDEL (R, 6,833t, 1930) Sunk by U-boat off W Africa, 43/01/09

MIRLO (R, 7,455t, 1922). Sunk by U-boat, off West Africa, 42/08/11

MONTENOL (2,646t, 1917). Torpedoed by U-boat, North Atlantic. Sunk by own forces, 42/05/21

NYHOLT (R, 8,087t, 1931). Sunk by U-boat, West Atlantic, 42/01/17

OLEANDER (7,048t) Damaged and beached on 26th May; sunk in Harstad Bay, Norway, 40/06/08

OLNA (12,667t, 1921) Bombed and set on fire, Crete, 41/05/18

PERICLES (R, 8,324, 1936) Lost in heavy weather on passage to Alexandria, Egypt, 41/04/14

PLUMLEAF (5,916t, 1917). Sunk by aircraft bombs, Malta, 42/04/04

ROSEWOOD (R, 5,989t, 1931)Torpedoed and presumed sunk, 43/03/09

SANDAR (R, 7,624t, 1928). Sunk by U-boat off Tobago, West Indies, 42/05/02

SILDRA (R, 7,313t, 1927) Sunk by U-boat off W. Africa, 41/08/19

SLAVOL (2,623t, 1917). Sunk by U-boat torpedo sailing for Tobruk, Libya, 42/03/26

SLEMDAL (R, 7,374t, 1931). Sunk by U-boat, North Atlantic, 42/06/15

SVENOR (R, 7,616t, 1931). Sunk by U-boat, West Atlantic, 42/03/27

SVEVE (R, 6,313t, 1930). Sunk by U-boat, North Atlantic, 42/09/10

TANKEXPRESS (R, 10, 095t, 1937). Sunk by U-boat off West Africa, 42/07/25

THELMA (R, 8,297t, 1937). Cause and place unknown, 42/08/26

THORSHAVET (R, 11,015t, 1938). Sunk by U-boat, Caribbean Sea, 42/11/03

THORSHOVDI (R, 9,944t, 1937) War cause, 43/08/04

VARDAAS (R, 8,176t, 1931). Sunk by U-boat, off Tobago, West Indies, 42/08/30

WAR DIWAN (5,550t, 1919) Sunk by mine, River Schelde, Holland, 44/12/16

WAR MEHTAR (5,502, 1920) Torpedoed off Yarmouth, 41/11/20

WAR SEPOY (5,574t, 1919) Damaged by aircraft off Dover. Constructive total loss, 40/07/19

WAR SIRDAR (5,518t, 1920). Lost on reef, NW Batavia, 42/03/01

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 292

1939 - 8/1/2003 10:04:02 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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Complete list for 1939 (Ships belonging to Royal Navy) Not merchants

September 1939

#39/09/10 Submarine OXLEY (1,350t, 1927) Sunk by accident off Norway

#39/09/14 Ammunition hulk LUCY BORCHARDT (1,850t, 1905) Cause and place unknown

#39/09/15 Ammunition hulk CARLO (1,737t, 1911) Cause and place unknown

#39/09/15 Ammunition hulk MOURINO (2,165t, 1906) Cause and place unknown

#39/09/15 Ammunition hulk STANLARD (1,737t, 1912) Cause and place unknown

#39/09/17 Aircraft carrier COURAGEOUS (22,500t, 1917, ex-cruiser, carrier from 1928) Sunk by U-boat torpedo W of Ireland

#39/09/29 Ammunition hulk DUNMORE HEAD (1,682t, 1898) Cause and place unknown

October 1939

#39/10/12 Drifter RAY OF HOPE (R, 98t, 1925) Mined, Thames Estuary

#39/10/14 Battleship ROYAL OAK (29,150t, 1916) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, Scapa Flow, Orkneys

November 1939

#39/11/05 Trawler NORTHERN ROVER (R, 655t, 1936) Overdue at Kirkwall, Orkneys by this date

#39/11/13 Destroyer BLANCHE (1,360t, 1931) Sunk by mine, Thames Estuary

#39/11/16 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.6 (18t, 1936) Foundered in bad weather off Sardinia, W Mediterranean

#39/11/20 Trawler MASTIFF (520t, 1938) Mined, Thames Estuary

#39/11/21 Destroyer GIPSY (1,335t, 1936) Sunk by mine off Harwich

#39/11/22 Trawler ARAGONITE (R, 315t, 1934) Mined off Deal

#39/11/23 Armed merchant cruiser RAWALPINDI (R, 16,697t, 1925, AMC from 10/39) Gunfire of German battlecruiser "Scharnhorst" SE of Iceland ***

#39/11/29 Tanker/oiler BIRCHOL (1,115t, 1917) Wrecked off Hebrides, W of Scotland ***

December 1939

#39/12/06 Trawler WASHINGTON (R, 209t, 1909) Mined in North Sea on passage to Yarmouth

#39/12/12 Destroyer DUCHESS (1,375t, 1933) Sunk in collision W of Scotland

#39/12/13 Trawler WILLIAM HALLETT (R, 202t, 1919) Mined, Tyne area, North Sea

#39/12/14 Trawler JAMES LUDFORD (506t, 1919) Mined off Tyne, North Sea

#39/12/16 Trawler EVALINA (R, 202t, 1919) Believed mined, Tyne area, North Sea

#39/12/16 Trawler SEDGEFLY (R, 520t, 1939) Believed mined, Tyne area, North Sea

#39/12/20 Tug NAPIA (R, 155t, 1914) Explosion, probably mined off Ramsgate

#39/12/21 Boom defence vessel BAYONET (605t, 1939) Mined Firth of Forth, E Scotland

#39/12/22 Trawler DROMIO (R, 380t, 1929) Collision, N of Whitby, North Sea

#39/12/23 Drifter GLEN ALBYN (R, 82t, 1909) Mined, Loch Ewe, W Scotland

#39/12/23 Drifter PROMOTIVE (R, 78t, 1908) Mined, Loch Ewe, W Scotland

#39/12/23 Trawler BARBARA ROBERTSON (R, 325t, 1919) German U-boat gunfire, north of Hebrides, W Scotland

#39/12/25 Trawler LOCH DOON (R, 534t, 1937) Probably mined, off Blyth, North Sea

21 trawler 4368 tons
6 misc 9776 tons (hulks and boom defense)
7 warship
4 small craft 413 tons
38 ships 14,557 tons (minus warship tonnage)

1 armed merchant crusier 16,697 t
1 tanker 1,115t
2 ships of value 17,812 t

(I realize all these ships have value and human beings were onboard. However for purpose of this survey they are not important except to see how much the figures get inflated)

We still need to count all the merchant marine ships (all these are RN)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 293

1940 - 8/1/2003 10:10:51 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

More non merchant ships that get counted by people (I don't think too many of these ships effect Britain as far as we are concerned. (But they do jack up the totals)

January 1940

#40/01/05 Trawler KINGSTON CORNELIAN (550T, 1934) Collision, E of Gibraltar Straits

#40/01/10 Submarine SEAHORSE (640t, 1933) Lost in Heligoland Bight, North Sea

#40/01/11 Yacht PRINCESS (R, 730t, 1924) Sunk in collision, Bristol Channel.

#40/01/12 Trawler VALDORA (R, 251t, 1916) Believed sunk by Geman aircraft, Cromer area

#40/01/15 Submarine UNDINE (540t, 1938) Lost in Heligoland Bight, North Sea, depth-charged by surface craft. Formally paid-off

#40/01/19 Destroyer GRENVILLE (Leader, 1,485t, 1936) Sunk by mine, North Sea

#40/01/20 Submarine STARFISH (640t, 1933) Lost in Heligoland Bight, North Sea, depth-charged by surface craft. Formally paid-off

#40/01/21 Destroyer EXMOUTH (Leader, 1,475t, 1934) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, Moray Firth, off W Scotland

#40/01/25 Drifter RIANT (R, 95t, 1919) Lost in bad weather off West Coast, Scotland.

#40/01/26 Special service vessel DURHAM CASTLE (8,240t, 1904) Sunk by mine off Cromarty on way to Scapa.

February 1940

#40/02/03 Minesweeper SPHINX (875t, July 1939) German bombers off NE Scotland

#40/02/09 Trawler FORT ROYAL (550t, 1931) Aircraft off Aberdeen

#40/02/09 Trawler ROBERT BOWEN (R, 290t, 1918) Aircraft off Aberdeen

#40/02/10 Special service vessel BRANKSEA (214t, 1890) Sunk off Girdleness on way to Scapa. Cause unknown.

#40/02/15 Trawler PERIDOT (550t, 1933) Mined off Dover

#40/02/18 Destroyer DARING (1,375t, 1932) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, off Duncansby Head, N Scotland

#40/02/18 Special service vessel ILSENSTEIN (8,216t, 1904) Sunk as blockship at Scapa Flow

#40/02/19 Special service vessel BUSK (367t, 1906) Sunk as blockship.

#40/02/20 Trawler FIFESHIRE (R, 540t, 1938) Aircraft E of Copinsay, Orkneys

#40/02/23 Trawler BENVOLIO (R, 352t, 1930) Mined off Humber

March 1940

#40/03/02 Tug FAIRPLAY TWO (R, 282t, 1921) Wrecked on Yorkshire Coast.

#40/03/03 Special service vessel CARRON (1,017t, 1894) Sunk as blockship at Scapa Flow

#40/03/09 Collier MAINDY HILL (R, 1,918t, 1911) Sunk in collision off Hartlepool.

#40/03/16 Drifter MAIDA (R, 107t, 1914) Mined, East Coast. England.

#40/03/22 Trawler LOCH ASSATER (R, 210t, 1910) British mine, E coast of Scotland

#40/03/25 Special service vessel GONDOLIER (250t, 1886) Sunk as blockship between 18th and 25th.

April 1940

#40/04/04 Drifter GOLDEN DAWN (R, 80t, 1913) Sunk at Ardrossan, W Scotland.

#40/04/08 Destroyer GLOWWORM (1,345t, 1936) Sunk by gunfire, Admiral Hipper, off Norway

#40/04/09 Destroyer GURKHA (1,870t, 1938) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Stavanger, Norway

#40/04/10 Destroyer HARDY (Leader, 1,505t, 1936) Driven ashore, gunfire, Narvik

#40/04/10 Destroyer HUNTER (1,340t, 1936) Sunk by surface ship gunfire, in battle of Narvik

#40/04/14 Submarine THISTLE (1,090t, 1939) Lost off Skudenses, Norway, torpedoed by U-boat

#40/04/20 Trawler RUTLANDSHIRE (R, 458t, 1936) Attacked by aircraft and grounded, Namsos, Norway

#40/04/22 Submarine TARPON (1,090t, 8/2/40) Lost North Sea, probably mined

#40/04/25 Trawler BRADMAN (R, 452t, 1937) Sunk by aircraft, West Coast of Norway.

#40/04/25 Trawler HAMMOND (R, 452t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft, Aandalsnes. Norway.

#40/04/25 Trawler LARWOOD (R, 453t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft, West Coast of Norway

#40/04/27 Submarine STERLET (670t, 1938) Lost, Skagerrak, cause unknown

#40/04/28 Trawler CAPE SIRETOKO (R, 590t, 1939) Sunk by aircraft, West Coast of Norway

#40/04/29 Submarine UNITY (540t, 1938) Lost in collision, Tyne area

#40/04/29 Trawler CAPE CHELYUSKIN (550t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Norway

#40/04/30 Minesweeper DUNOON (710t, 1919) Mined off Great Yarmouth, E England

#40/04/30 Sloop BITTERN (1,190t, 1938) German bombers off Namsos, Norway

#40/04/30 Tanker/oiler BOARDALE (8,400t, 1937) Grounded at Narvik, Norway and sunk

#40/04/30 Trawler JARDINE (452t, 1936) Sunk by own forces after damage by aircraft, West Coast of Norway.

#40/04/30 Trawler WARWICKSHIRE (R, 466t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft, Trondheim area, Norway

16 trawler 7166
18 warship
4 small craft 564
6 Sunk as block ship 18,304 ton (I don't know what to do with this. Was this part of prewar tonnage quoted?)
1 collier 1,918 ton
1 tanker 8,400 ton

46 ships 36,352 tons but I feel 1 ship 8,400 ton belongs in survey.

running total would be

86 ships 68,721 tons

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 294

1940 cont - 8/1/2003 10:12:59 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

May 1940

#40/05/02 Special service vessel REDSTONE (3,110t, 1918) Sunk as blockship at Scapa Flow.

#40/05/03 Destroyer AFRIDI (Leader, 1,870t, 1938) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Norway

#40/05/03 Trawler ASTON VILLA (R, 546t, 1937) Sunk by aircraft off Norway.

#40/05/03 Trawler GAUL (550t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft off Norway.

#40/05/03 Trawler ST. GORAN (R, 565t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft, Namsos, Norway.

#40/05/06 Trawler LOCH NAVER (R, 278t, 1919) Sunk in collision #off Hartlepool.

#40/05/15 Destroyer VALENTINE (Leader, 1,090t, 1917) Bombed, grounded and abandoned in River Scheldt, Begium

#40/05/18 Cruiser EFFINGHAM (9,550t, 1925) Struck submerged rock and wrecked, Vestfiord, Norway

#40/05/19 Destroyer WHITLEY (1,100t, 1918) Damaged by bombs, beached between Nieuport and Ostend, Belgium

#40/05/19 Minelayer PRINCESS VICTORIA (R, 2,179t, 1939) Mined, entrance to R Humber, E England. Date given as 18th-19th

#40/05/20 Trawler RIFSNES (R, 431t, 1932) Sunk by aircraft off Ostend.

#40/05/21 Mine destructor vessel CORBURN (3,060t, 1936) Mined off Le Havre, N France

#40/05/21 Trawler CAPE PASSARO (R, 590t, 1939) Sunk by aircraft, Narvik area, Norway

#40/05/22 Trawler MELBOURNE (R, 466t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft, Narvik area, Norway

#40/05/24 Destroyer WESSEX (1,100t, 1918) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Calais, France

#40/05/25 Special service vessel FLORENTINO (1,822t, 1921) Sunk as blockship at Zeebrugge, Belgium.

#40/05/25 Special service vessel MASHOBRA (R, 8,324t, 1920) Damaged by aircraft, and beached at Narvik.

#40/05/25 Special service vessel TRANSEAS (1,499t, 1924) Sunk as blockship at Zeebrugge, Belgium

#40/05/25 Trawler CHARLES BOYES (R, 290t, 1918) Sunk by mine, East Coast of England.

#40/05/26 Boom defence vessel LOCH SHIN (R, 255t, 1930) Capsiszd at Harstad, Norway, after being damaged by aircraft and beached.

#40/05/26 Cruiser CURLEW (AA ship, 4,290t, 1917) Sunk by aircraft, bombs, off Ofotfiord, Norway

#40/05/27 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.10, 11, 14, 15, 18-20 (total 7, 30-37t each) Presumed lost during operations at Narvik, Norway between 6th and 27th

#40/05/27 Special service vessel ATLANTIC GUIDE (1,943t, 1924) Sunk as blockship at Zeebrugge, Belgium

#40/05/27 Special service vessel BORODINO (2,004t, 1911) Sunk as blockship at Zeebrugge, Belgium

#40/05/28 Drifter BOY ROY (R, 95t, 1911) Bombed, beached and abandoned in Dunkirk Harbour.

#40/05/28 Drifter OCEAN REWARD (R, 93t, 1912) Sunk in collision off Dover.

#40/05/28 Drifter PAXTON (R, 92t, 1911) Damaged by aircraft, and beached at Dunkirk.

#40/05/28 Minesweeper BRIGHTON BELLE (R, 396t, 1900) Collision with submerged wreck, The Downs, English Channel

#40/05/28 Trawler THOMAS BARTLETT (R, 290t, 1913) Sunk by British mine off Calais

#40/05/28 Trawler THURINGIA (550t, 1933) Sunk by mine, North Sea

#40/05/29 Auxiliary anti-aircraft ship CRESTED EAGLE (R, 1,110t, 1925) German aircraft, off Dunkirk, N France

#40/05/29 Destroyer GRAFTON (1,335t, 1936) Sunk by E-boat torp, off Dunkirk, France

#40/05/29 Destroyer GRENADE (1,335t, 1936) Sunk by aircraft bombs, in Dunkirk Harbour, France

#40/05/29 Destroyer WAKEFUL (1,100t, 1917) Sunk by E-boat torp off Dunkirk, France

#40/05/29 Drifter COMFORT (R, 60t) Rammed and sunk by accident off Dover.

#40/05/29 Drifter GIRI PAMELA (R, 93t, 1912) Sunk in collision off Dunkirk.

#40/05/29 Drifter NAUTILUS (R, 64t, 1929) Sunk at Dunkirk.

#40/05/29 Landing craft assault LCA No.4, 18 (total 2, 11-13.5t each) Lost in SS Clan Macalister, sunk by aircraft at Dunkirk

#40/05/29 Landing craft assault LCA No.16 (11-13.5t) Sunk by aircraft at Dunkirk

#40/05/29 Minesweeper WAVERLEY (R, 537t, 1899) Sunk by German bombers off Dunkirk, N France

#40/05/29 Minesweeper GRACIE FIELDS (R, 393t, 1936) Sunk by German bombers off Dunkirk, N France

#40/05/29 Trawler CALVI (R, 363t, 1930) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Dunkirk

#40/05/29 Trawler POLLY JOHNSON (R, 290t, 1918) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Dunkirk

#40/05/30 Armed boarding vessel KING ORRY (R, 1,877t, 1913) German aircraft attack, Dunkirk, N France

#40/05/30 Boom defence vessel CAMBRIAN (R, 338t, 1924) Mined in Spithead.

#40/05/30 Motor canal boat AMBLEVE. Ran aground Dunkirk.

#40/05/30 Motor canal boat YSER. Ran aground Dunkirk.

#40/05/31 Landing craft assault LCA No.8, 15 (total 2, 11-13.5t each) Lost at Dunkirk

#40/05/31 Minesweeper DEVONIA (R, 622t, 1905) Damaged by German bombers, beached and abandoned, off Dunkirk

#40/05/31 Trawler ST. ACHILLEUS (R, 484t, 1934) Sunk by mine, Dunkirk area

June 1940

#40/06/01 Destroyer BASILISK (1,360t, 1931) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Dunkirk, France

#40/06/01 Destroyer HAVANT (1,400t, 1939) Sunk by aircraft bombs, off Dunkirk, France

#40/06/01 Destroyer KEITH (Leader, 1,400t, 1931) Sunk by aaircraft bombs, off Dunkirk, France

#40/06/01 Drifter FAIR BREEZE (R, 93t, 1925) Struck wreck off Dunkirk.

#40/06/01 Minesweeper BRIGHTON QUEEN (R, 807t, 1905) Lost by gunfire off Dunkirk

#40/06/01 Minesweeper SKIPJACK (815t, 1934) German bombers off Dunkirk

#40/06/01 Motor canal boat ESCAUT. Lost at Dunkirk. Date approximate

#40/06/01 Motor canal boat SEMOIS. Lost at Dunkirk. Date approximate

#40/06/01 River gun boat MOSQUITO (585t, April 1940) German aircraft off Dunkirk, while withdrawing from Dunkirk

#40/06/01 Trawler ARGYLLSHIRE (R, 540t, 1938) Sunk by E-boat during evacuation from Dunkirk

#40/06/01 Trawler STELLA DORADO (550t, 1935) Sunk by E-boat during evacuation from Dunkirk

#40/06/01 Tug ST. ABBS (550t, 1919) Sunk by aircraft at Dunkirk.

#40/06/01 Tug ST. FAGAN (550t, 1919) Sunk by aircraft at Dunkirk.

#40/06/01 Yacht AMULREE (R, 89t, 1938) Sunk in collision, Dover Straits.

#40/06/01 Yacht GRIVE (R, 687t, 1903) Sunk by aircraft during withdrawal from Dunkirk.

#40/06/02 Drifter LORD CAVAN (R, 96t, 1915) Sunk by gunfire off Dunkirk. Date given as 1st-2nd

#40/06/02 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.12, 22 (total 2, 30-37t each) Abandoned at Dunkirk

#40/06/02 Trawler BLACKBURN ROVERS (R, 422t, 1934) Sunk by U-boat or mine, North Sea

#40/06/02 Trawler WESTELLA (550t, 1934) Torpedoed or mined off Dunkirk.

#40/06/03 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.17 (30-37t) Abandoned at Dunkirk

#40/06/03 Special service vessel EDV. NISSAN (R, 2,062t, 1921) Sunk as blockship

#40/06/03 Special service vessel HOLLAND (R, 1,251t, 1919) Sunk as blockship

#40/06/03 Special service vessel WESTCOVE (2,735t, 1912) Sunk as blockship at Dunkirk.

#40/06/04 Drifter OCEAN LASSIE (R, 96t, 1919) Sunk by mine off Harwich.

#40/06/04 Special service vessel GOURKO (1,975t, 1911) Mined off Dunkirk.

#40/06/04 Special service vessel PACIFIC0 (687t, 1905) Sunk as blockship at Dunkirk.

#40/06/07 Armed merchant cruiser CARINTHIA (R, 20,277t, 1925, AMC from 1/40) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, W of Ireland ***

#40/06/08 Aircraft carrier GLORIOUS (22,500t,1917, ex-cruiser, carrier from 1930) Sunk by gunfire, "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", latitude of Narvik, Norway

#40/06/08 Destroyer ACASTA (1,350t, 1930) Sunk by "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", gunfire, returning from Norway

#40/06/08 Destroyer ARDENT (1,350t, 1930) Sunk by "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau" gunfire, returning from Norway

#40/06/08 Tanker/oiler OLEANDER (7,048t) Damaged and beached on 26th May; sunk in Harstad Bay, Norway,

#40/06/08 Trawler JUNIPER (505t, March 1940) Sunk by "Admiral Hipper" gunfire off Norway

#40/06/08 Yacht BOOMERANG VI (R, 19t, 1938) Lost by fire.

#40/06/09 Drifter DEWEY EVE (R, 109t, 1916) Sunk in collision, Scapa Flow, Orkneys.

#40/06/09 Landing craft assault LCA No.11, 14 (total 2, 11-13.5t each) Lost in Home waters

#40/06/10 Armed boarding vessel VAN DYCK (R, 13,241t, 1921) Lost in convoy probably by German air attack, Narvik area, Norway

#40/06/10 Special service vessel JACOBUS (1,262t, 1920) Sunk as blockship at Dieppe.

#40/06/10 Special service vessel KAUPO (R, 2,420t, 1888) Sunk as blockship

#40/06/10 Special service vessel RIVER TYNE (1,525t, 1920) Sunk as blockship at Dieppe.

#40/06/10 Yacht PELLAG II (R, 44t, 1937) Presumed lost at Dunkirk.

#40/06/12 Cruiser CALYPSO (4,180t, 1917) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, S of Crete

#40/06/12 Trawler SISAPON (R, 326t, 1928) Mined off Harwich.

#40/06/12 Tug TWENTE (R, 239t, 1937) Lost through enemy action.

#40/06/13 Armed merchant cruiser SCOTSTOUN (R, 17,046t, 1925, AMC from 9/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo. NW Approaches. ***

#40/06/13 Drifter OCEAN SUNLIGHT (R, 131t, 1929) Mined off Newhaven

#40/06/14 Landing craft assault LCA No.1, 2 (total 2, 11-13.5t each) Lost in Home waters

#40/06/14 Trawler MYRTLE (550t, 1928) Sunk by mine, Thames Estuary.

#40/06/16 Armed merchant cruiser ANDANIA (R, 13,950t, 1922, AMC from 11/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, SE of Iceland. ***

#40/06/17 Trawler MURMANSK (R, 348t, 1929 ) Grounded at Brest and abandoned.

#40/06/21 Drifter CHARDE (R, 99t, 1919) Sunk in collision at Portsmouth.

#40/06/21 Freighter CAPE HOWE (R, 4,443t, 1930) Sunk by U-boat, SW Approaches ***

#40/06/22 Yacht CAMPEADOR V (R, 195t, 1938) Mined off Portsmouth

#40/06/23 Destroyer KHARTOUM (1,710t, 1939) Beached after damage by internal explosion caused by burst air vessel off Perim Harbour, Red Sea

#40/06/23 Tug CORINGA (R, 294t, 1914) Lost in Atlantic, cause unknown.

#40/06/24 Submarine GRAMPUS (1,520t, 1937) Lost off Augusta, Sicily, cause unknown

#40/06/27 Submarine ODIN (1,475t, 1929) Lost in Gulf of Taranto, S Italy, cause unknown

#40/06/27 Submarine ORPHEUS (1,475t, 1930) Lost, probably torpedoed by Italian submarine between Malta and Alexandria

#40/06/29 Freighter WILLAMETTE VALLEY (R, 4,702t, 1928) Sunk by U-boat, SW Approaches ***

July 1940

#40/07 Landing craft assault LCA No.6 (11-13.5t) Cause and place unknown. Date loss reported

#40/07/01 Special service vessel TWEEDLEDEE (163t, 1925) Sunk as blockship

#40/07/01 Special service vessel TWEEDLEDUM (163t, 1925) Sunk as blockship.

#40/07/03 Special service vessel JAMES 83 (397t, 1926) Sunk as blockship, later salvaged

#40/07/04 Auxiliary anti-aircraft ship FOYLE BANK (R, 5,582t, 1930) German aircraft, Portland, S England

#40/07/05 Destroyer WHIRLWIND (1,100t, 1918) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, SW of Ireland

#40/07/05 Special service vessel EMERALD WINGS (2,139t, 1920) Sunk as blockship at Scapa. Date is for arrival date

#40/07/06 Submarine SHARK (670t, 1934) Lost to aircraft, off Skudenses, Norway

#40/07/08 Special service vessel JAMES 9 (85t, 1924) Sunk as blockship.

#40/07/08 Trawler CAYTON WYKE (550t, 1932) Sunk by surface craft torpedo, off Dover.

#40/07/11 Destroyer ESCORT (1,375t, 1934) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, W Mediterranean

#40/07/11 Yacht WARRIOR II (R, 1,124t, 1904) Sunk by aircraft off Portland.

#40/07/14 Submarine SALMON (670t, 1935) Lost, probably mined, SW Norway

#40/07/16 Destroyer IMOGEN (1,370t, 1937) Damaged in collision, caught fire, abandoned of Duncansby Head, N Scotland

#40/07/17 Mooring vessel STEADY (758t, 1916) Sunk by mine oft Newhaven.

#40/07/17 Submarine PHOENIX (1,475t, 1931) Lost off Sicily, cause unknown

#40/07/19 Tanker/oiler WAR SEPOY (5,574t, 1919) Damaged by aircraft off Dover. Constructive total loss

#40/07/19 Trawler CRESTFLOWER (550t, 1930) Foundered after damage by aircraft off Portsmouth.

#40/07/20 Destroyer BRAZEN (1,360t, 1931) Sunk by aircraft off Dover, S England

#40/07/22 Trawler CAMPINA (R, 289t, 1913) Mined off Holyhead.

#40/07/24 Trawler FLEMING (R, 356t, 1929) Sunk by aircraft, Thames Estuary.

#40/07/24 Trawler KINGSTON GALENA (550t, 1934) Sunk by aircraft off Dover.

#40/07/24 Trawler RODINO (R, 230t, 1913) Sunk by aircraft off Dover.

#40/07/27 Destroyer CODRINGTON (Leader, 1,540t, 1930) Bombed and sunk in Dover Harbour, S England

#40/07/28 Trawler STAUNTON (R, 283t, 1908) Presumed blown up by magnetic mine, Thames Estuary.

#40/07/29 Destroyer DELIGHT (1,375t, 1933) Bombed and sunk off Portland, S England

#40/07/29 Special service vessel UMVOTI (R, 5,183t, 1903) Sunk as blockship.

#40/07/29 Yacht GULZAR (R, 197t, 1934) Sunk in air attack, Dover Harbour.

#40/07/30 Examination vessel LADY SLATER (R, 273t, 1934) Caught fire and became total loss.

44 misc small craft 4,853 ton
28 trawler 12,292 tons
50 warships
20 Special service 40,749tons(most sunk as block ships)(when we get our totals we will compare our block ship tons with other quoted totals to see if it was used or not)
3 armed merchant cruiser 51,273 ton
2 tanker 12,622 ton
2 frieghter 9,145
149 ships (7) 130,934 tons (73,040)

running total
235 ships (10) 199,655 tons (99,252)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 295

1940 cont - 8/1/2003 10:20:09 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

I bet out of this whole herd we find 20-30 that are meaningfull to our study. But boy they make the 1939-1940 total ship sunk list long.
*** at end means its a ship I would count for study purpose (I have not so marked all ships that rate it)

August 1940

#40/08/01 Submarine NARWHAL (1,520t, 1936) Lost, probably off Trondheim, Norway, cause unknown. Formally paid off

#40/08/01 Submarine OSWALD (1,475t, 1929) Rammed and sunk, 10 miles SE Spartevento Bay, by Italian destroyer

#40/08/02 Drifter EMBRACE (R, 94t, 1907) Grounded at Loch Alsh, W. Scotland. Total loss

#40/08/02 Trawler CAPE FINISTERRE (R, 590t, 1939) Sunk by aircraft off Harwich.

#40/08/02 Submarine SPEARFISH (670t, 1936) Lost, probably by U-boat torpedo, off Norway. Formally paid off.

#40/08/03 Submarine THAMES (1,805t, 1932) Lost, off Norway, probably mined.

#40/08/04 Trawler DRUMMER (R, 297t, 1915) Mined off Brightlingsea, Essex

#40/08/04 Trawler MARSONA (R, 276t, 1918) Mined off Cromarty

#40/08/04 Trawler OSWALDIAN (R, 260t, 1917) Mined, Bristol Channel.

#40/08/05 Trawler RIVER CLYDE (R, 276t, 1919) Sunk by mine off Aldeburgh, Suffolk.

#40/08/10 Armed merchant cruiser TRANSYLVANIA (R, 16,923t, 1925, AMC from 10/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, N of Ireland. ***

#40/08/10 Balloon barrage vessel BOREALIS (R, 451t, 1930) Sunk.

#40/08/10 Drifter YOUNG SID (R, 100t, 1912) Sunk in collision. Moray Firth, E. Scotland.

#40/08/12 Trawler PYROPE (R, 295t, 1932) Sunk by aircraft, Thames Estuary.

#40/08/12 Trawler TAMARISK (545t, 1925) Sunk by aircraft, bombs, Thames Estuary

#40/08/13 Trawler ELIZABETH ANGELA (R, 253t, 1928) Sunk by aircraft in Downs.

#40/08/15 Collier KING CITY (R, 4,744t, 1928) Sunk by German Raider, lndian Ocean

#40/08/16 Drifter MANX LAD (R, 24t, 1937) Sunk by mine off Holyhead

#40/08/16 Special service vessel MOREA (1,968t) Sunk as blockship

#40/08/20 Trawler RESPARKO (R, 248t, 1916) Sunk by aircraft at Falmouth.

#40/08/21 Netlayer KYLEMORE (R, 319t, 1897) German aircraft, Harwich, E England

#40/08/23 Destroyer HOSTILE (1,340t, 1936) Mined and sunk off Cape Bon, Tunisia

#40/08/24 Sloop PENZANCE (1,025t, 1931) Torpedoed by German U-boat, North Atlantic

#40/08/27 Yacht WHITE FOX II (R, 23t, 1933) Lost by fire.

#40/08/28 Armed merchant cruiser DUNVEGAN CASTLE (R, 15,007t, 1936, AMC from 12/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, W of Ireland. ***

#40/08/31 Yacht EMELLE (R, 43t, 1916) Cause and place unknown

September 1940

#40/09/01 Destroyer ESK (1,375t, 1934) Sunk by mine, North Sea

#40/09/01 Destroyer IVANHOE (1,370t, 1937) Sunk by mine, North Sea

#40/09/01 Trawler ROYALO (R, 248t, 1916) Sunk by mine off S. Cornwall.

#40/09/04 Tug SAUCY (R, 597t, 1918) Mined, Firth of Forth.

#40/09/06 Corvette GODETIA (940t, July 1940) Collision off Northern Ireland

#40/09/07 Yacht RHODORA (R, 687t, 1929) Lost in collision, Bristol Channel.

#40/09/07 Yacht SHASHI III (R, 155t) Lost by fire.

#40/09/09 Drifter ALFRED COLEBROOK (56t, 1912) Sunk as blockship, Richborough Channel, SE England.

#40/09/09 Special service vessel MINNIE DE LARINAGA (5,046t, 1914) Damaged by aircraft, London Docks. Total loss. Date given as 7th-9th

#40/09/09 Trawler DERVISH (R, 346t, 1911) Mined off Humber.

#40/09/09 Trawler HARVEST MOON (72t, 1904) Sunk as blockship.

#40/09/12 Tug SALVAGE KING (R, 1164t, 1923) Grounded W of Duncansby Head, NE Scotland.

#40/09/15 Sloop DUNDEE (1,060t, 1933) Torpedoed by German U-boat, North Atlantic

#40/09/24 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.15 (18t, 1939) Mined, Thames Estuary, SE England

#40/09/24 Trawler LOCH INVER (R, 356t, 1930) Probably mined, Harwich area.

#40/09/25 Drifter WHITE DAISY (R, 79t, 1910) Sunk, probably near Lerwick.

#40/09/25 Trawler STELLA SIRIUS (550t, 1934) Sunk by bombs during air raid on Gibraltar

#40/09/27 Destroyer WREN (1,120t, 1923) Bombed and sunk off Aldeburgh, Suffolk, E England

#40/09/28 Trawler RECOIL (R, 344t, 1938) Lost on patrol, presumed mined, English Channel.

#40/09/30 Trawler COMET (R, 301t, 1924) Sunk by mine off Falmouth.

#40/09/30 Yacht SAPPHO (R, 387t) Presumed torpedoed, Falmouth area.

October 1940

#40/10/05 Trawler KINGSTON SAPPHIRE (R, 356t, 1929) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, Straits of Dover

#40/10/07 Drifter SCOTCH THISTLE (R, 84t, 1913) Grounded, Thames Estuary. Total loss. Date given as 6th-7th

#40/10/09 Trawler SEA KING (R, 321t, 1916) Sunk by underwater explosion in Grimsby Roads.

#40/10/11 Yacht AISHA (R, 117t, 1934) Believed mined, Thames Approaches.

#40/10/12 Trawler RESOLVO (R, 231t, 1913) Sunk by mine, Thames Estuary.

#40/10/12 Trawler WARWICK DEEPING (350t, 1934) Sunk by surface craft torpedo, English Channel

#40/10/13 Drifter SUMMER ROSE (R, 96t, 1919) Mined off Sunderland.

#40/10/13 Tug DANUBE 111 (R, 234t, 1924) Mined off Sheerness.

#40/10/14 Trawler LORD STAMP (R, 448t, 1935) Sunk by mine,English Channel.

#40/10/15 Drifter APPLE TREE (R, 84t, 1907) Sunk in collision. Oban Harbour.

#40/10/16 Minesweeper DUNDALK (710t, 1919) Mined off Harwich, SE England

#40/10/16 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.106 (June 1940) Mined, Thames Estuary, SE England

#40/10/18 Trawler KINGSTON CAIRNGORM (R, 448t, 1935) Sunk by mine, English Channel.

#40/10/19 Destroyer VENETIA (1,090t, 1917) Sunk by mine, Thames Estuary, SE England

#40/10/19 Submarine RAINBOW (1,475t, 1932) Sunk off Calabria, S Italy, by gunfire, Italian submarine. Formally paid off.

#40/10/19 Trawler VELIA (R, 290T, 1914) Sunk, presumed mined, Harwich Area.

#40/10/20 Submarine TRIAD (1,090t, 16/9/39) Lost off Calabria, S. Italy, cause unknown.

#40/10/21 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.17 (18t, 1939) Probably mined, off Ostend, Belgium

#40/10/21 Trawler HICKORY (505t, 19/4/40) Sunk by mine, English Channel.

#40/10/21 Trawler WAVEFLOWER (550t, 1929) Sunk by mine off Aldeburgh, Suffolk

#40/10/22 Trawler JOSEPH BUTTON (R, 290t, 1918) Sunk by mine off Aldeburgh.Suffolk.

#40/10/25 Drifter DUTHIES (R, 89t, 1914) Sunk by aircraft at Montrose

#40/10/25 Trawler LORD INCHCAPE (R, 338t, 1924) Sunk by mine off Plymouth, later salvaged.

#40/10/27 Drifter PERSEVERE (R, 19t, 1937) Mined, Firth of Forth .

#40/10/27 Submarine H-49 (410t, 1919) Lost, depth-charged off Dutch Coast, German A/S surface craft. Formally paid off.

#40/10/28 Drifter HARVEST GLEANER (R, 96t, 1918) Sunk by aircraft E coast of England.

#40/10/30 Destroyer STURDY (905t, 1919) Wrecked, Tiree Island, W Scotland

#40/10/30 Motor launch ML No.109 (57t, August 1940) Mined, off Humber

#40/10/30 Tug SEAGEM (R, 92t, 1939) Missing, presumed lost. (approx.)

#40/10/31 Gate Vessel PLACIDAS FAROULT (R, 136t, 1927) Cause and place unknown. Date given as 30th-31st

#40/10/31 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.16 (18t, 1939) Mined, Thames Estuary

2 special 7,014
1 collier 4,744
26 trawler 9384
31 warships
15 small craft 2908
2 armed merchant crusier 31,930 ton

87 ships (2) 55,980 tons (31,930)

322 ships (12) 255,635 tons (131,182)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 296

1940 cont - 8/1/2003 10:25:40 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

There you go Pry. You don't have to list any ship that belonged to Royal Navy for 1939-1940 this is complete list.

November 1940

#40/11/01 Drifter TORBAY II (R, 83t, 1910) Sunk by aircraft off Dover.

#40/11/01 Trawler RINOVA (R, 499t, 1931) Sunk by mine off Falmouth.

#40/11/01 Trawler TILBURY NESS (R, 279t, 1918) Sunk by aircraft, Thames Estuary.

#40/11/02 Drifter GOODWILL (R, 28t) Sunk.

#40/11/03 Armed merchant cruiser LAURENTIC (R, 18,724t, 1927, AMC from 10/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, NW Approaches ***

#40/11/04 Armed merchant cruiser PATROCLUS (R, 11,314t, 1923, AMC from 1/40) Attacked by U-boat on the 3rd. Sank W of Ireland. ***

#40/11/05 Armed merchant cruiser JERVIS BAY (R, 14,164t, 1922, AMC from 10/39) Sunk by "Admiral Scheer", N, Atlantic. ***

#40/11/06 Whaler SEVRA (R, 953t, 1929) Mined off Falmouth, SW England

#40/11/07 Drifter REED (R, 99t, 1911) Mined, Thames Estuary, SE England

#40/11/07 Trawler WILLIAM WESNEY (R, 364t, 1930) Sunk by mine off Orfordness.

#40/11/08 Tug MURIA (R, 192t, 1914) Sunk by mine off N. Foreland, SE England

#40/11/08 Whaler A.N. 2 (R, 921t, 1926) Mined off Falmouth, SW England

#40/11/10 Boom defence vessel MARCELLE (R, 64t, 1923) Mined, Bristol Channel.

#40/11/10 Trawler KINGSTON ALALITE (550t, 1933) Sunk by mine off Plymouth.

#40/11/11 Degaussing ship BALMORE (R, 1,925t, 1920) Air attack, Atlantic

#40/11/11 Trawler STELLA ORION (R, 417t, 1935) Mined, Thames Estuary.

#40/11/14 Boom defence vessel RISTANGO (R, 178t, 1913) Fouled Medway boom, Sheerness.

#40/11/14 Drifter SHIPMATES (R, 82t, 1911) Sunk by aircraft, Dover Harbour.

#40/11/14 Drifter THE BOYS (R, 93, 1914) Sunk in heavy weather in Downs, SE England.

#40/11/15 Trawler DUNGENESS (R, 263t, 1914) Bombed and total loss off Haisborough, Norfolk.

#40/11/15 Tug GUARDSMAN (R, 102t, 1905) Sunk by mine off N. Foreland, SE England

#40/11/16 Trawler ARSENAL (530t, 1933) Sunk in collision off Clyde, Scotland

#40/11/16 Submarine SWORDFISH (640t, 1932) Lost, off Ushant, cause unknown.

#40/11/18 Drifter GO AHEAD (R, 100t, 1919) Sunk in collision, Sheerness, SE England

#40/11/19 Trawler FONTENOY (R, 376t, 1918) Sunk by aircraft off Lowestoft, E England

#40/11/21 Drifter XMAS ROSE (R, 96t, 1918) Mined, Thames Estuary, SE England

#40/11/22 Motor launch ML No.127 (65t, 7th Nov 1940) Mined, Thames Estuary

#40/11/22 Trawler ETHEL TAYLOR (R, 276t, 1917) Mined off Tyne.

#40/11/24 Trawler AMETHYST (627t, 1934) Sunk by mine, Thames Estuary

#40/11/24 Yacht GAEL (R, 101t, 1904) Mined, entrance to Humber.

#40/11/25 Motor launch ML No.111 (57t, July 1940) Presumed mined, off Humber

#40/11/25 Trawler CONQUISTADOR (R, 224t, 1915) Sunk in collision. Thames Estuary.

#40/11/25 Trawler KENNYMORE (R, 325t, 1914) Mined, Thames Estuary.

#40/11/27 Minelayer PORT NAPIER (R, 9,600t, 1940)Lost by fire, Loch Alsh, W Scotland

#40/11/27 Trawler ELK (R, 181t, 1902) Mined at Plymouth.

#40/11/28 Trawler MANX PRINCE (R, 221t, 1910) Mined, entrance to Humber.

#40/11/29 Drifter YOUNG FISHERMAN (R, 95t, 1914) Grounded, Oban, W Scotland. Total loss

#40/11/29 Trawler CALVERTON (R, 214t, 1913) Mined, entrance to Humber.

#40/11/30 Trawler CHESTNUT (505t, 21/5/40) Sunk by mine off N. Foreland, Kent.

December 1940

#40/12/02 Armed merchant cruiser FORFAR (R, 16,402t, 1922, AMC from 11/39) Sunk by U-boat torpedo, W of Ireland. ***

#40/12/04 Special service vessel EMPIRE SEAMAN (1,927t, 1922) Sunk, cause unknown.

#40/12/06 Submarine REGULUS (1,475t, 1930) Lost, Otranto Strait, S Italy, cause unknown. Formally paid off.

#40/12/07 Guardship LORMONT (R, 1,561t, 1927) Sunk in collision off Humber.

#40/12/07 Trawler CAPRICORNUS (R, 219t, 1917) Sunk by mine off S. E. England.

#40/12/07 Trawler CORTINA (R, 213t, 1913) Sunk in collision off Humber.

#40/12/17 Boom defence vessel THOMAS CONNOLLY (R, 290t, 1918) Sunk by mine, Sheerness.

#40/12/17 Destroyer ACHERON ( 1,350t, 1931) Sunk by mine off Isle of Wight, S England

#40/12/17 Drifter CARRY 0N (R, 93t, 1919) Mined, Sheerness.

#40/12/18 Submarine TRITON (1,095t, 1933) Lost in S Adriatic, probably mined.

#40/12/18 Trawler REFUNDO (R, 338t, 1917) Sunk by mine off Harwich.

#40/12/19 Drifter PROFICIENT (R, 57t) Grounded Whitby, Yorkshire. Total loss.

#40/12/21 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.30 (8-11t) Lost in air raid on Liverpool. Date given as 20th-21st

#40/12/22 Destroyer HYPERION (1,340t, 1936) Sunk by mine off Pantellaria, SW of Sicily

#40/12/24 Drifter LORD HOWARD (R, 98t, 1917) Collision, Dover Harbour

#40/12/24 Trawler PELTON (R, 358t, 1925) Sunk by E-boat off Yarmouth.

#40/12/25 Minesweeper MERCURY (R, 621t, 1934) Damaged by own mine, S of Ireland

#40/12/26 Drifter TRUE ACCORD (R, 92t, 1921) Collision, Yarmouth Area.

#40/12/26 Motor attendant craft No 5 (1936) Presumed mined, off NE Gunfleet

#40/12/30 Trawler BANDOLERO (913t, 1935) Sunk in collision, Gulf of Sollum. Egypt.

__________________________________________________

Nov-Dec 1940
21 Trawler 7892 ton
4 AMC. 60,604 ton
15 small craft 1,319
2 whaler 1,874
16 warship
1 special 1,927
59 ships (4) 73,616 tons (60,604)

381 ships (16) 329,251 tons (191,786)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trawlers 112 total tonnage 41,102 (or minus 411,020 tons material for war)(If you go strictly by tonnage lost without attention to what type a ton is was)

# before entry means I've collected the data for that ship.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 297

Re: 1939 - 8/1/2003 1:15:12 PM

Von Rom

Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Complete list for 1939 (Ships belonging to Royal Navy) Not merchants

21 trawler 4368 tons
6 misc 9776 tons (hulks and boom defense)
7 warship
4 small craft 413 tons
38 ships 14,557 tons (minus warship tonnage)

1 armed merchant crusier 16,697 t
1 tanker 1,115t
2 ships of value 17,812 t

(I realize all these ships have value and human beings were onboard. However for purpose of this survey they are not important except to see how much the figures get inflated)

We still need to count all the merchant marine ships (all these are RN) [/B][/QUOTE]

Mogami:

One thought:

By leaving out trawlers, destroyers, subs etc that were sunk, means that you will skew your survey.

By this I mean, each of these ships had a function to perform. If one or more are sunk, then that means more of them will have to be built. This then uses up scarce resources that could have been used to build more merchants.

Britain was desperate to get those 50 WWI US destroyers. Britain also had to convert ships into trawlers to perform coastal duty because it simply didn't have enough destroyers to do the job.

A destroyer sunk, means one less escort for convoys. This means that another one has to be built, thus using up scarce resources.

If a trawler is sunk, then that means a portion of a shipyard is being used to convert another ship into a trawler.

This cost/benefit and balancing between forces are some of the very tough choices the Allies faced in WWII. They had to balance the build types for the types of ships that were needed, such as destroyers, merchants, troop transports, minesweepers, etc, etc.

Any ship of any type that is sunk, means that another ship of that type must be built, thus consuming time, resources, shipyards, etc, etc.

Otherwise, the Allies would have just built lots of merchant ships, and ignored all these other types. But they were all needed to do the job.

I see you're getting your info from: naval-history.net

Cheers!

_____________________________

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 298

Survey says - 8/1/2003 1:32:56 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I'm counting every ship. Just not their tonnage.

Ships lost by Royal Navy (not merchant marine) 1939-1940

381 ships tonnage (minus warships) 329251
16 ships under RN control would count as merchants 191786 tons

Next time someone says "381 ships were sunk between Sept 39 and Jan 41 almost bringing Britain to her knees."

You'll know the answer. (Only 16 were used transport of material)

Now of course the merchant marine numbers still have to be added. And they will be the real deal. (every merchant lost in Atlantic hurts)

It's not important what Britain builds. Only that she is able to keep producing what ever it is she requires. We can not begin to access where the Germans must increase the damage untill we understand clearly and completly where the damage was done in fact.

This survey only goes to the end of 1940 currently.
we have seen the 1500 ship sunk by other then u-boat. I have to go through these lists and subtract u-boat from other.

out of the 2500 ships listed as sunk in the 39-41 period we see now that at least 365 of them did not matter in the pure "tonnage" battle.

Are we all together thus far?

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 299

Oct, Nov & Dec 1939 - 8/1/2003 7:56:04 PM

pry

Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline

October 1939

5 - 12 Oct
Admiral Graf Spee 4 ships (22368)
RN captures passenger steamer Cap Norte (13615)

October 9 - 16
Deutschland, 1 ship Lorentz W Hansen (Freighter - Norwegian) (1918) Also captured US Flagged City of Flint (4963) *** Need to investigate These are possible acts of war against Norway and the US

10-19 October
U37 8 ships (35306)
U45 2 ships (19313)
U46 1 ship (7028)
U48 5 ships (37153)
U42 1 ship (4803)
U42 sunk (10-13 convoy escort OB17)
U45 sunk (10-14 convoy escort KJF.3)

19 Oct
RN captures tanker Biskaya (6386)
21 Oct
RN captures freighter Gloria (5896)
23 Oct
RN captures freighter Bianca (1375)
25 Oct
RN captures freighter Rheingold (5055)

15 Oct - 5 Nov
U16 sunk (10-16 mine)
U19 3 ships (12344) laid minefield
U21 1 (2266) laid minefield
U24 1 ship (924)
U33 2 ships (11929)

21 Oct - 30 Oct
French navy captures Santa Fe (general cargo)(4627)
24 Oct - 13 Nov
U13 1 ship (4666)
U59 3 ships (1470)

U25 1 ship (5874) (French convoy 20.K)
U34 4 ships (16546) (convoy HX5A)

5 Nov
RN captures freighter Uhenfels (7603)

1 September - 1 November
127 vessels (245455) have been confiscated in the Baltic and brought into German ports

6 November - 2 December
Admiral Graf Spee, 1 ship (Tanker) Africa Shell (706)

9 November
RN captures freighter Leander (989)

12 - 13 November
13 freighters sunk (48728) (Minefield -Destroyer laid)

17 November
RN captures Henning Oldendorf (general cargo)(3986)

18 November
RN captures Borkum (general cargo)(3670) *U31 sunk her a few days later
RN captures Eilbeck (general cargo)(2185)

22 November
RN captures Konsul Hendrik Fisser (general cargo)(4458)

14 November
French Navy captures Trifels (general cargo)(6198)

15 - 20 November
*(U41 and U43, report repeated torpedo failures in attack on convoy OG7)
U41 4 ships (12941)
U43 4 ships (16030)

15 - 24 November
U15 1 ship (258)(laid minefield)
U19 1 ship (6371)(laid minefield)
U20 2 (7929)(laid minefield)
U18 1 ship (345)
U22 1 ship (500)
U57 1 ship (2949)

15 November - 5 December
U28 2 ships (10277)(torpedoed while enroute to lay minefield) laid minefield which claims 1 ship (9577)
Destroyer laid minefield 7 ships (27565)

18 - 19 November
Destroyer laid minefield 7 ships (38710) *included in total is Polish Passenger ship Pilsudski (14294)

23 November
Scharnhorst 1 ship Rawalpindi (Passenger-general cargo)(16697)

21 - 30 November
U33 sinks 5 trawlers and takes 1 prize (5088)

29 November
U35 Sunk

27 November - 7 December
U59 2 ships (705) (laid minefield)
U21 1 ship (1277)
U31 6 ships (12338)
U56 1 ship (2119)

2 - 13 December
Admiral Graf Spee sinks Freighters Doric Star (10086), Tairoa (7983) and Streonshalh (3895)

2 - 15 December
U47 3 ships (23168)
U48 4 ships (25618)

3 - 13 December
U38 3 ships (13269)

12 December
U36 sunk *sunk by UK sub Salmon, 1st sub v sub sinking of war

5 December
RN captures Dusseldorf (Freighter - 4930) * in Pacific

6 - 7 December
Destroyer laid minefield 2 ships (5286)
7 - 22 December
U13 1 ship (1421) (laid minefield)
U22 4 ships (4978) (laid minefield)
U61 1ship (1086) (laid minefield)
U60 1 ship (4373) (laid minefield)
U20 1 ship (1339)
U21 2 ships (2827)
U23 1 ship (2400)
U57 1 ship (1173)
U59 3 ships (4148)

12 - 13 December
Destroyer laid minefield, 11 ships (18979)

19 December
German freighter Arauca (4354) * Puts into Port Everglades Fla. To avoid capture by RN

17 - 19 December
German Aircraft sink 10 ships (trawlers) (2949) off E. coast of UK

19 December - 22 January
U30 sinks ASW trawler (325), also torpedoes Battleship Barham (12-28), laid minefield which claims 4 ships (22472) * Not a bad patrol
U32 1 ship (959) (laid minefield)
U46 1 ship (924)

27 December
German freighter Glucksburg (2680) * beaches herself in Spain to avoid capture by RN

28 December - 12 January
U58 2 ships (4426)
U56 1 ship (1333) (laid minefield)

(in reply to U2)

Post #: 300