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Numbers - 7/29/2003 2:24:40 PM   
mogami


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Hi, Our numbers match for period from Sept 39 to Jan 42.
After that it does not matter U-boats have lost. (They do have best period but alas for them the enemy total has more then doubled.
In 39 they are after 21mT in 1942 The Allies have at least 50MT (I'm guessing the USA had at least as large a merchant fleet as Britian)

Yes they do a lot of damage but they would need to almost triple the historic damage to be making real progress.

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Post #: 211
Re: Numbers - 7/29/2003 2:47:12 PM   
Von Rom


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Our numbers match for period from Sept 39 to Jan 42.
After that it does not matter U-boats have lost. (They do have best period but alas for them the enemy total has more then doubled.
In 39 they are after 21mT in 1942 The Allies have at least 50MT (I'm guessing the USA had at least as large a merchant fleet as Britian)

Yes they do a lot of damage but they would need to almost triple the historic damage to be making real progress. [/B][/QUOTE]

Germany had no hope of defeating the USA. It needed to defeat Britain (and it could defeat Britain if the proper resources had been placed in the battle).

Between Sept/39 to Dec/40, 1,280 British, Allied and Neutral ships were sunk, for a total of 4,700,000 tons.

Between Jan/41 to Dec/41 another 1,299 British, Allied and Neutral ships were sunk, for a total of 4,329,000 tons.

[This period between Sept/39 to Dec/41 represents 50% of all Allied shipping losses sustained in all of WWII. The main burden of these losses fell on Britain].

These are the real meaningful numbers. For such a small U-boat fleet they inflicted a great deal of damage. The real significance of all this lies in the fact that had Hitler committed to a large U-boat fleet early on, then Britain could have been blockaded into submission.

Frankly, Blair's underlying thesis that the U-boat threat was overblown, simply does not hold water, considering the damage they did do, as well as the terrifying potential they had (if produced in larger numbers).

That this did not happen can only be accounted one of the true lucky "circumstances" of the war.

Finally, raw numbers simply do not tell the whole tale. One ship sunk; two built.

This becomes even more evident when we consider what just three airliners and 19 men caused on 9/11.

Cheers!

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Post #: 212
U-boats - 7/29/2003 2:57:24 PM   
mogami


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Hi, You keep forgetting the Germans keep giving the British more ships then they sink.

In Sept 1939 Britian has 21,000,000 tons of shipping.
They need 43,000,000 tons of goods per year.

In 1939 they sink 755,000 tons but the British get 500,000 tons back (new builds and the Poles.

In 1940 they sink 4,000,000 tons (this would have been a disaster except the British get 5,000,000 tons back (New,Norway,Denmark (and I'm sure I forgot to add a few ships from France Belguim and Holland)

So when 1941 begins the Germans actually have more ships still to sink then when they began in 1939. Thats the problem.

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Post #: 213
Re: U-boats - 7/29/2003 9:41:09 PM   
Von Rom


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, You keep forgetting the Germans keep giving the British more ships then they sink.

In Sept 1939 Britian has 21,000,000 tons of shipping.
They need 43,000,000 tons of goods per year.

In 1939 they sink 755,000 tons but the British get 500,000 tons back (new builds and the Poles.

In 1940 they sink 4,000,000 tons (this would have been a disaster except the British get 5,000,000 tons back (New,Norway,Denmark (and I'm sure I forgot to add a few ships from France Belguim and Holland)

So when 1941 begins the Germans actually have more ships still to sink then when they began in 1939. Thats the problem. [/B][/QUOTE]

Mogami:

By your own reckoning, it takes the Allies 4 years (until 1943) before the Allies (mainly the USA) produce more ships than are being sunk. This, in and of itself, defeats Blair's thesis that the U-boat threat has been overblown. In addition, it took the entry into the war of the USA to overcome these ship losses.

You mention Britain getting all these other nations' ships. I do not doubt your information. I was just wondering what are your sources for this information? Just because France has 50 tankers, does not necessarily mean that they will wind up in British hands.

If I remember correctly, the British sank a large part of the French fleet. Not sure the French would be so obliging to hand over supply ships to them.

In early 1941, not only was Britain running out of gold and cash (in fact it couldn't even pay the US for any of the armaments it was building), but the ships the USA were building at that time were less than half of what Britain needed, due to losses sustained. This was according to Churchill, himself. (page 692, Gilbert's "Churchill").


Cheers!

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Post #: 214
- 7/29/2003 10:48:29 PM   
Nikademus


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
To quote Blair:

". . . the U-boat peril in World War II was and has been vastly overblown."

My evidence was to show that it was not over blown.

Also, many on this board said that Britain was not in danger of being defeated. My "extra" evidence showed otherwise.



I guess i need reading glasses because i do not see this evidence. I see a bunch of opinions, negative reviews on Blair and dire predictions and forcasts. I need not repeat anymore what i've been asking you for.


quote:


Ah, yes you have Blair. Where would we be without Blair. You hang onto his book as though it is the Holy Grail. LOL

His book is full of faults, no less being it contains no footnotes so we cannot check his data. Further, his pro-American bias is everywhere in the book. The British and Germans are roundly criticized, but he has almost 300 pages to devote to defending King's abysmal lax attitude regarding east coast convoy protection.


Tsk tsk my friend. I do not consider Blair's book a holy grail. That is my whole point. I've listened, and listened and listened to your continued pointings towards what are perceived as his "faults" yet in the end you can provide no counter-data regarding the economic situation nor can your critics refute Blair's findings that most cargo ships made it to their destinations. I am only asking what any "Blair fan" would, who might use the source to run away and say that the uboats were nothing at all. I dont think the uboats were nothing, but i have yet to see any data that refutes Blair's thesis that the UBoats never came close to acheiving strategic success.

Yes, he criticises the British and Germans, yes he devotes pages to exonerate the Americans....yes he likes King. I've pointed out that he does the same thing to the American silent service in his earlier book and levels harsh critisim on his own Silent Service. So maybe he's just a hard taskmaster when it comes to sub ops. I know the raw tonnage figures, you've repeated them over and over. I am only interested in the state of Britian's lifeline and the uboat objectives. All you've been able to do here is talk about lack of footnotes (there are some in the book) and that his "data" cant be checked. Well that might be true given how many years he spent pouring over the documents and records in London and Washington. Last i checked, noone faults Blair for his research, only his writing methods from the thumbs down reviews you've transcribed.

quote:



It is difficult ultimately to accept Blair's claim that the loss of 596 merchant ships of 3.5 million tons to enemy action between September 1942 and March 1943 was not a crisis simply because most ships in convoy arrived safely and Allied shipbuilding replaced those lost.


Sigh. Well here we are back in 1942 after the USA entered the war. So you conceede then Britian's lifeline was hardly severed before American entry into the war? Define "Crisis", i could see a crisis in leadership when someone has to explain why so many American ships got sunk when perhaps the "tools" were available and that it might have been prevented, but this 'crisis' does not automatically evolve into a crippling blow to the Allies. 3.1 million tons of shipping is alot. 30million tons total shipping is alot more. Replacement of 85 - 90% of that lost shipping same year counts alot too.

quote:


In order to win the tonnage war, the Allies had to divert an extraordinary amount of resources away from the production of tanks, landing craft, aircraft and other armaments necessary for the invasion of Europe toward the production of merchant ships and escorts.


No argument here. Blair agrees. other sources agree. we all agree. However this is a moot point as well. The Allies had to divert resources, but they still won. Neither does this facet translate into a crippling blow. It was not Doneitz's goal. His goal was maritime defeat of the enemy and Blair's thesis is not about resource divertion, its about how close the Uboats came to acheiving strategic victory.

quote:



Indeed, the argument that the tonnage war was a misguided strategy from the outset pre-supposes both the entry of the United States into the war and the presence of a viable alternative to it for Germany.


Not if Blair's info on Britian is correct. I might not use the term 'misguided' myself as it does smack of hindsight, unless one considers Germany's technological challenges in facing this new uboot war, perhaps a better term is "doomed" for it would have required more changes than meerly producing a few more boats and the world economy was different from the last war.


quote:


"Arms waving in the air?" Please.

Winston Churchill, as the leader of Great Britain, was briefed daily on all activities on air, land and sea. He had a very clear idea of what was happening. The information was so bad, he eventually stopped giving loss figures to Parliament, because they were so depressing.

Out of the HUNDREDS of historians who have written about the Battle of the Atlantic, ONLY Blair makes the contention that the U-boat war was not that serious. LOL



Well you can laugh. Me, i prefer to see the data. I've posted numbers from Blair's book. All you've posted is raw tonnage which is yes, well known, and some of Churchill's quotes on his fears. Blair, love or hate his writing style, researched all the convoy and uboat patrols and compared them with economic data for the USA and Britian at the time. I've asked you repeatedly over and over to show the data that backs the negative commentary you've gone to pains to post about the author. To this date you have not.

quote:


I guess all these other historians are flighty individuals running around waving their hands in the air whenever the word "U-boat" is mentioned.


I have no idea who "all these other historians are" and have no need to critisize their work. When all I see are quotes from Churchill and the daily paper of the time talking grim about the Uboat war which i never said was anything less than a struggle for life, When all i see are comments that the Uboat war was serious and that heavy losses were reported in raw tonnage yep, the description fits. None of these trappings indicates that Britian's lifeline was in mortal danager of being severed. If Blair is the first author to truely attempt to delve into the real effects of this popular subject, that does not automatically make him wrong. What would make him wrong is equivilent data that shows that Britian was teetering on the edge of destruction and that most of her loaded ships were being sunk before reaching harbor. But that appears to have not happened.

quote:


To paraphrase Tweedy Bird: "I did, I did. I did taw a U-boat."


I'd like to see a Uboat someday. :)


quote:


No one said the British were starving, even though rationing was instituted, and everyone had to grow gardens. Even so, just three weeks interruption of the convoy system would have resulted in dire shortages.


Ok, you admit they wern't starving. It also appears their economy wasn't grinding down either. As for "interruption" of the convoy system. It never happened during the war. According to the data, it never came close to happening. I think it would take a hell lot more than a few more boats to create that total or near total embargo.
quote:



The British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, in a broadcast on 27th April 1941, made clear that the most important theatre of the war for Britain lay in the Atlantic:

"Still, when you think how easy it is to sink ships at sea and how hard it is to build and protect them, when you remember we never have less than 2,000 ships afloat and 300 to 400 in the danger areas, when you think of the great armies we maintain...and the world-wide traffic we have to carry, can you wonder that it is the Battle of the Atlantic which holds the first place in the thoughts of those upon whom rests the responsibility for procuring the victory?"



Nice speech. Again all this proves is that Churchill's first obsession was the Uboat. No doubt he was right to focus on the threat. When your an island nation dependant on maritime trade, i think that produces a far different perception of priorities vs say, a continental power that if push came to shove, could survive having half it's merchant fleet shot out from under it. Who knows, maybe thats why King downplayed the warnings from the British which helped make DRUMBEAT a reality. Had Britian not focused on the threat.....maybe they would have lost their lifeline. But they did focus on it....obscessed on it might be the better word....and it appears they never came close to losing it.

quote:


And while convoying did undoubtedly reduce sinkings and save lives, the introduction of the convoy system led to a temporary but critical one-third reduction in the quantity of imports reaching Britain, a fact which caused Churchill much concern.

In addition to a one-third reduction in imports, there was also the 2,500 ships that had been sunk in the first two years of the war.


Much of which was quickly replaced.....meanwhile, Britian's economy made the adjustments, reduced it's need for imports and chugged on, as did the British people. Nothing new here......raw tonnage #'s Got em....thanks.

quote:


War is waged by much more than having a few carrots and potatoes to eat. It requires prodigious amounts of oil, metals, parts, tanks, aircraft, ships, factories, money etc, etc.

And every ship sunk, places the recipient in a far worse situation.


That is the oft held contention, if one assumes that each ship sunk was loaded. They were not. Britian continued to produce the tanks, parts, aircraft etc etc etc. When losses from the land battles exceeded that production they turned to the USA for help.

quote:



In early 1941, not only was Britain running out of gold and cash (in fact it couldn't even pay the US for any of the armaments it was building), but the ships the USA was building would only meet half of Britain's shipping requirements due to losses sustained (page 692, Gilbert's "Churchill").



Britian was running out of gold not meerly because of uboat losses, never rich to begin with after WWI gutted the treasury, the land based losses and the BoB and the damage/costs it ensued would all have combined to create a money starved government.

quote:


It was a just a figure to illustrate my point. Relax. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm always relaxed :) well your point seemed to be indicating that only a "handful" of uboats created a catastrophe when in reality it was rather more than that. Perception is a powerful tool and can readily distort.

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Post #: 215
Re: Re: U-boats - 7/29/2003 11:14:18 PM   
mogami


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]Mogami:

By your own reckoning, it takes the Allies 4 years (until 1943) before the Allies (mainly the USA) produce more ships than are being sunk. This, in and of itself, defeats Blair's thesis that the U-boat threat has been overblown. In addition, it took the entry into the war of the USA to overcome these ship losses.

You mention Britain getting all these other nations' ships. I do not doubt your information. I was just wondering what are your sources for this information? Just because France has 50 tankers, does not necessarily mean that they will wind up in British hands.

If I remember correctly, the British sank a large part of the French fleet. Not sure the French would be so obliging to hand over supply ships to them.

In early 1941, not only was Britain running out of gold and cash (in fact it couldn't even pay the US for any of the armaments it was building), but the ships the USA were building at that time were less than half of what Britain needed, due to losses sustained. This was according to Churchill, himself. (page 692, Gilbert's "Churchill").


Cheers! [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, I don't think I've added any French ships. (But I'll bet there were French ships used by allies)

The Polish ships for example. Some of these were at Dunkirk, others hauled material to North Africa for the USA later on.
Norway had one of the largest merchant marines in the world. The fact that over 500 Norwegian ships were sunk after Apr 9 1940 while in the mid atlantic shows a considerable number of Norwegian ships went into allied service. I even saw a WW2 Poster thanking the Danish merchant marines for continuing to man their ships.
You do the math. The U-boats sank enough ships to defeat Britian.........except the British must have gotten a large number of ships from some place (and as you point out new production does not come close in 1939 and 1940)

The 233 Norwegian tankers were used the entire war. They were critical to Allied planning. I think if I find and post the total tonnage Britian recieved as a result of other neutral countries going allied it will dismay you.

After Dec 7 1941 it is pointless to debate. The only question is could Germany have defeated Britian in 1939-1940.
The answer is yes. But only by preventing neutral ships from crossing over into the allied camp or sinking 3 times the tonnage they sank.


PS it takes till 1943 for allies to pass sunk tons with new tons only if I use the lowest set of numbers I find. And I should point out these numbers are only USA production not allied production.
If I use the higher totals I find then in 1942 the USA built 10MT new (not allies just USA) But to help the U-boat cause I used the lowest total I could find. ( this is 28 months after war begins allies are clearly out producing lost tons)

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Post #: 216
- 7/30/2003 12:10:02 AM   
Von Rom


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Joined: 5/12/2000
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]I guess i need reading glasses because i do not see this evidence. I see a bunch of opinions, negative reviews on Blair and dire predictions and forcasts. I need not repeat anymore what i've been asking you for.[/quote]

It takes the Allies 4 years (until 1943) before the Allies (mainly the USA) produce more ships than are being sunk. This, in and of itself, defeats Blair's thesis that the U-boat threat has been overblown. In addition, it took the entry into the war of the USA to overcome these ship losses.

50% of all shipping losses were suffered between 1939 to 1941, or 2,500 ships. According to Blair, this type of threat was over-blown.

I do not doubt that many ships in convoy reached their destinations, and neither do other historians. I have mentioned this before.

The problem is, even though thousands of ships are sunk, especially before 1942, Blair does not consider this to be a serious threat by U-boats.


[QUOTE]Not if Blair's info on Britian is correct. I might not use the term 'misguided' myself as it does smack of hindsight, unless one considers Germany's technological challenges in facing this new uboot war, perhaps a better term is "doomed" for it would have required more changes than meerly producing a few more boats and the world economy was different from the last war.[/QUOTE]

I have seen Blair's info. Many different sources have varying numbers - some sources have twice the numbers that Blair uses. So we are to suppose that Blair's numbers are correct? Then again, how are we to check his facts, when he provides no footnotes!


[QUOTE]I have no idea who "all these other historians are" and have no need to critisize their work. When all I see are quotes from Churchill and the daily paper of the time talking grim about the Uboat war which i never said was anything less than a struggle for life, When all i see are comments that the Uboat war was serious and that heavy losses were reported in raw tonnage yep, the description fits. None of these trappings indicates that Britian's lifeline was in mortal danager of being severed. If Blair is the first author to truely attempt to delve into the real effects of this popular subject, that does not automatically make him wrong. What would make him wrong is equivilent data that shows that Britian was teetering on the edge of destruction and that most of her loaded ships were being sunk before reaching harbor. But that appears to have not happened.[/QUOTE]


I have provided info and quotes from reliable sources and highly qualified academics. The author of Churchill's biography, who was a professor at Oxford, spent 26 years completing the 8 volume work of his life. They at least provide sources for their information, something Blair fails to do.

What is it about the fact that 2,500 ships being sunk between 1939 to 1941 that you do not understand?

I also guess the statements made by one of the greatest statesmen of the 20th Century (Churchill - who was briefed daily on all war activities and who was a scholar in his own right, having written two dozen history books) carries NO weight - LOL

[QUOTE]Ok, you admit they wern't starving. It also appears their economy wasn't grinding down either. As for "interruption" of the convoy system. It never happened during the war. According to the data, it never came close to happening. I think it would take a hell lot more than a few more boats to create that total or near total embargo.[/QUOTE]

No one said they were starving. This is something you added. Although, a 3 week interruption of convoys would have led to food shortages.

If the country you currently live in is always just 3 weeks away from starvation and food shortages, would you not consider this to be a crisis?

Heck, you might even become obssessed over food - hehe

[QUOTE]Who knows, maybe thats why King downplayed the warnings from the British which helped make DRUMBEAT a reality. Had Britian not focused on the threat.....maybe they would have lost their lifeline. But they did focus on it....obscessed on it might be the better word....and it appears they never came close to losing it. [/QUOTE]

Obessessed. Hehe - Yeah, when you're all alone, fighting for your very existence, I guess you can get "obssessed" - :rolleyes:

Never came close to losing it? If Blair is the only book you have read on the U-boat war, then I can understand your thinking.

[QUOTE]well your point seemed to be indicating that only a "handful" of uboats created a catastrophe when in reality it was rather more than that. Perception is a powerful tool and can readily distort.[/QUOTE]

The fact is that only a handful of U-boats were at sea for any length of time until later in the war. And yes, a relatively small number did inflict huge losses.

For example, in June, 1940 there were only 21 operational subs.

In April, 1941 there were only 35 operational subs.

This disproves Blair's thesis, since, if Hitler had built more U-boats, the losses would have been even higher in 1939-41.

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Post #: 217
Re: Some helpful facts - 7/30/2003 12:13:42 AM   
Von Rom


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Joined: 5/12/2000
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, I'm learning a lot about U-boats and merchant ships.

UK started war with 21mT of merchant shipping. Needed yearly imports of 43mT after rationing. (Every ton of shipping sunk = 2T of goods/yr. lost.)

1939
U-boats sink 755,000 tons British replace (new builds) 320,000 tons.

Polish merchant fleet of 54 ships 188,000 tons escapes to Scotland (320+188=508k tons) (These ships carried over 5 million tons during war)


So in 1939 Germany was plus 247k tons 21,000,000-247,000

1940 to follow

1940

U-boats sink 4million tons

1.2 million tons new builds

Norway
233 Tankers fell under Allied control after the Apr 9 1940 invasion of Norway. These ships were to prove vital during war. Over 500 Norwegian ships would be lost during battle of Atlantic. (over 1000 ships went "Allied") using 2.5k I'll add 2,500,000 tons for these and 582,500 for the Tankers (and I know this is way below real tonnage)

Denmark
800,000 tons went to Allies after Denmark was over run.

4,000,000-5,082,000 Germany is behind 1,082,000 for 1940 and 835,000 tons overall. (British begin Sept 39 with 21MT begin 1941 with 21,835,000 ton)

1941 to follow [/B][/QUOTE]

My figures indicate that in 1939 Britain had the biggest merchant fleet in the world of about 3,000 ships, totaling 17 millions tons, and not the 21 million you have indicated, which means the British lose 4 million tons.

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Post #: 218
Re: Re: Re: U-boats - 7/30/2003 12:19:26 AM   
Von Rom


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, I don't think I've added any French ships. (But I'll bet there were French ships used by allies)

The Polish ships for example. Some of these were at Dunkirk, others hauled material to North Africa for the USA later on.
Norway had one of the largest merchant marines in the world. The fact that over 500 Norwegian ships were sunk after Apr 9 1940 while in the mid atlantic shows a considerable number of Norwegian ships went into allied service. I even saw a WW2 Poster thanking the Danish merchant marines for continuing to man their ships.
You do the math. The U-boats sank enough ships to defeat Britian.........except the British must have gotten a large number of ships from some place (and as you point out new production does not come close in 1939 and 1940)

The 233 Norwegian tankers were used the entire war. They were critical to Allied planning. I think if I find and post the total tonnage Britian recieved as a result of other neutral countries going allied it will dismay you.

After Dec 7 1941 it is pointless to debate. The only question is could Germany have defeated Britian in 1939-1940.
The answer is yes. But only by preventing neutral ships from crossing over into the allied camp or sinking 3 times the tonnage they sank.


PS it takes till 1943 for allies to pass sunk tons with new tons only if I use the lowest set of numbers I find. And I should point out these numbers are only USA production not allied production.
If I use the higher totals I find then in 1942 the USA built 10MT new (not allies just USA) But to help the U-boat cause I used the lowest total I could find. ( this is 28 months after war begins allies are clearly out producing lost tons) [/B][/QUOTE]

I've done some digging, and the numbers roughly correspond to what you have written. I was mainly interested in the sources you used, since this type of info is difficult to come by.

Again, all this info disproves Blair's thesis: Since, as you rightly mentioned, "The U-boats sank enough ships to defeat Britian.........except the British must have gotten a large number of ships from some place (and as you point out new production does not come close in 1939 and 1940)", then the U-boats posed a great risk to Britain's survival.

The fact that all these other ships came over to Britain; the fact that Hitler didn't concentrate on U-boat buildiing early on; etc, etc, does not diminish the threat the U-boat posed.

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Post #: 219
- 7/30/2003 12:35:48 AM   
Von Rom


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Since Britain started the war with 3,000 ships; and since by Dec/41 the Germans had sunk 2,500 ships; then it clearly indicates that Britain (if left by itself without the benefit of other countrys' shipping or new construction) would have been left with only 500 ships.

In other words, in the first two years of the war, the Germans sank the equivalent of almost the total number of pre-war British merchant shipping!

This is indeed a crisis.

And again, this only serves to disprove Blair's contention that the U-boat threat was overblown and did not pose a strategic threat to Britain before 1942.

The fact that the USA entered the war; the fact that other countries' merchant ships went over to Britain; the fact that few U-boats were initially built; and the fact that Hitler turned east, rather than dealing Britain a death blow, can only be considered to be some of the fortunate twists and turns of history that fate seems destined to hand out from time-to-time.

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Post #: 220
- 7/30/2003 2:20:17 AM   
pry


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Interesting how this thread got Hi-Jacked :D While the U-boats were very effective early on, They never really caused more than temporary shortages to the UK. Gains to the merchant fleet from new construction and the addition of Allied vessels to that fleet far exceeded Germanys ability to deal with it. You can twist the numbers anyway you want to and what if it to death but it still comes out the same.

Now The Details...

1939 - 1941 Existing and constructed tonnage Totals
(Great Britain & Commonwealth, United States, Norway, Netherlands, France, Belgium)

48,359,058 (Existing and new construction thru 1941)
-9,267458 (Sunk by Germans thru 1941)
39.191,600 (Total Left to allies thru 1941)
-13,407,267 (lets take out US existing and construction just for grins thru 1941)

+25,784,333 (Still left to UK and Allies at the end of 1941)

Sorry Mr Von Ron, from where I sit your dog don't hunt...


Existing Merchant Tonnage, 1939

Great Britain 21,001,925
United States 11,470,177
Norway 4,833,813
Netherlands 2,969,578
France 2,933,933
Belgium 408,418

Total 43,617,844

Annual Allied production of Merchant Shipping *Tonnage Launched

Note this does not count existing tonnage and tonnage gained from other countries this is only new construction.

USA/UK/Commonwealth = Total Launched

1939
376,419
629,705
36,142
1,042,266

1940
528,697
842,910
18,886
1,390,493

1941
1,031,974
1,185,894
90,595
2,308,455

US = 1,937,090
UK = 2,658,509
CW = 145,623
Total new construction thru 1941 = 4,741,222

(The Allied ramp up also just for grins)
1942
5,479,766
1,270,714
720,172
7,488,652

1943
11,448,360
1,136,804
1,002,850
13,588,014

1944
9,288,156
919,357
692,405
10,899,918

1945
5,839,858
393,515
141,893
6,375,266

1939 - 1945 Totals
USA= 33,993,230
UK= 6,378,899
CW= 2,702,943
43,075,072

Source, World War Two, A Statistical Survey
1993, John Ellis, ISBN 0-8160-2971-7

[QUOTE]Since Britain started the war with 3,000 ships; and since by Dec/41 the Germans had sunk 2,500 ships; then it clearly indicates that Britain (if left by itself without the benefit of other country's shipping) would have been left with only 500 ships.[/QUOTE]

Same source lists 2579 total "Allied" vessels sunk (9,267,458 Tons) by the end of 1941. The assumption that 2,500 of these were British vessels is not correct these were from all ALLIED nations thru the end of 1941.

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 221
da....da DA da... - 7/30/2003 2:32:54 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom

50% of all shipping losses were suffered between 1939 to 1941, or 2,500 ships. According to Blair, this type of threat was over-blown.

I do not doubt that many ships in convoy reached their destinations, and neither do other historians. I have mentioned this before.

The problem is, even though thousands of ships are sunk, especially before 1942, Blair does not consider this to be a serious threat by U-boats.



Because Blair appears to be looking at the big picture, not just counting ships. If one just looks at the raw tonnage, yes it looks very impressive. As you noted, at one period his research shows more ships sunk that the sources you quote. But the question, is and remains, was Britian at the 'brink' and he says no and provides numbers that go beyond the raw tonnage.

98% of all the ships in the Atlantic lifeline convoys delivered their goods. This would seem to indicate that while the lost shipping would hurt in the long run, new construction and aquisition of neutral shipping would substantially cushion this blow and as long as the goods are 'mostly' being delievered, Britian buys time for herself.

quote:



I have seen Blair's info. Many different sources have varying numbers - some sources have twice the numbers that Blair uses. So we are to suppose that Blair's numbers are correct? Then again, how are we to check his facts, when he provides no footnotes!


The footnotes are there if one looks hard enough :) This avenue is pointless. One can say his data is incorrect but i'd rather see counter-data, paticularily for the British economy.



quote:


I have provided info and quotes from reliable sources and highly qualified academics. The author of Churchill's biography, who was a professor at Oxford, spent 26 years completing the 8 volume work of his life. They at least provide sources for their information, something Blair fails to do.


Yes, but these quotes do not give data. They give opinions, and all this stuff about Churchill.....you know i like the man but given his temperament and agendas i'm not going to simply take his fears about the uboats as fact especially when there are no figures behind it.

quote:



What is it about the fact that 2,500 ships being sunk between 1939 to 1941 that you do not understand?



Well since were arguing data partially the fact that Blair's figures show 1,124 British and Neutral ships sunk between sept 39 and Dec 41.

The other part is these numbers alone, are meaningless unless coupled with the true state of the British merchant fleet and the economy it supports.

The British merchant fleet started out with about 17.8 million gross tons (3000 ships) in sept 39

By dec 41, it stood at *3600* ships and 20.7 million tons

I dont see this translating into "the brink" for Britian. Serious? yes, Are they managing the "crisis"? Yes.

quote:


I also guess the statements made by one of the greatest statesmen of the 20th Century (Churchill - who was briefed daily on all war activities and who was a scholar in his own right, having written two dozen history books) carries NO weight - LOL


If Mr. Churchill would be so kind as to post his statistics i'd be most greatly appreciative ;)


quote:


No one said they were starving. This is something you added. Although, a 3 week interruption of convoys would have led to food shortages.

If the country you currently live in is always just 3 weeks away from starvation and food shortages, would you not consider this to be a crisis?

Heck, you might even become obssessed over food - hehe


What are you talking about????!!!!!

I'm already obsessed with food. A big mac would go down real well by now. You want a real crisis? Show me a statistical track documenting the increasing #'s of McDonalds restaurants popping up all over Europe. Civilization as we know it could be endagered!

sorry....back to our regularily scheduled debate/rant :)

By "Starving" i reference the true purpose and goal of the uboats in two world wars.......embargo, the choking off of Britian's lifeline for a nation that cannot feed itself or it's economy without it's merchant fleet. I consider that a good defintion for "at the brink" which you've mentioned numeruos times. From what i can see the boats did not come close to achieving this 39-41. As for this 3 week interuption you keep mentioning, how the hell is this going to happen when it never came close to happening historically?

quote:



Obessessed. Hehe - Yeah, when you're all alone, fighting for your very existence, I guess you can get "obssessed" - :rolleyes:


uh, yeah, hence my point about the objectivity of your Churchill quotes and the contemporary London Times. :)

quote:


Never came close to losing it? If Blair is the only book you have read on the U-boat war, then I can understand your thinking.


Nope, have read others though admitedly, they are farther in the past but more importantly, dont have em handy to reference. Moot. Got Baddie Blair right here, and i do know that his is the only book to take this statistical approach, an attempt to look beyond the raw tonnage #'s. You may not like him ,but the counter-data i'm looking for still has not been provided and Blair's true Thesis, that the Uboats did not come close to acheiving strategic victory remains disproven. Its all i've been asking for for about 2 pages now :) I've heard the negative commentaries, lets see these other sources provide their statistics.


quote:



The fact is that only a handful of U-baots were at sea for any length of time until later in the war. And yes, a relatively small number did inflict huge losses.



Well thats like saying that a handful of ASW boats inflicted huge losses on the Uboats in turn since they were hardly all at sea at the same time too. Fact remains it was not 20 boats that "nearly destroyed" Britian. More like 153 working in shifts.


quote:


This disproves Blair's thesis, since, if Hitler had built more U-boats, the losses would have been even higher in 1939-41. [/B][/QUOTE]

Assumption. It might also have led to more sunken Uboats. Regardless, i cannot entertain the build more Uboats theory in a vaccuum. Had Germany devoted substantially more resources to the 'boots' there most likely would have been a reaction. The Uboots also needed other factors changed in addition to more numbers.

A 'few' more boots, well we come back to the argument of just how far pushed was Britian as a nation byt the 153 boots that beset her.

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 222
- 7/30/2003 3:56:48 AM   
Strat

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: comfy chair
Status: offline
I have no stat's to argue or discuss either way, but I do know this as fact. As close as it can be, cause in no way, shape, or form will I call my grandfather a lier.
My 77 (almost 78) year old grand dad, "Peter Macro" and I have discussed this thread during sunday afternoon over a few drinks at our local Ex-Sevicemans Club with one or two other old timers, and I'm almost afraid to say that the early years of convoy's was a nerve racking experience for them. My Grand dad was a merchantman from his early teens, even going to sea at 15, such was his dedication to become a man, "well that's what you did" he confidently tell's me, with agreement from the other older chaps.
On several accasions within the first two years of war he remembers U-boat attacks, fortunately my Grand fathers boat was never hit, but he remember's many that were and the convoy would spend very little time surching for survivers, because every hour that they spent in the ocean there ship was a target for the U-boat.
All the merchant navy feared the U-boat, but he has rather confidently confirmed that an extra 150 U-boats would not have stopped the convoy's, at worst, maybe only made the war last a few months longer.

When I asked if he thought that England was in any real danger from the U-boats, after lengthy discussion he and friends aggreed that this was probably/possibly the reason for such heavy shortages and ration cards given to the entire nation during the war, so (almost unaminous)(spelling) yes the U-bouts did poise a major threat to the British economy/war effort in the early years of WW2 and yes an extra 150 boats would have been a major problem. But I have been assured that it would have been no worse than they/I have already stated in the last paragraph.
I personally think that an extra 150 or a total of 300 operational U-bouts would have almost certainly posed as an incredibly threat to our (British) merchant shipping during the early war years, probably not a war winner but certainly a war lengthener.
It is only speculation as to how long this may be, as we all know when the war in europe finished. Maybe three day's longer, mayber three months or at an extreme, six months, but I dought six months, the outcome would still be the same I think..

Thanx for listening.

Strat..

_____________________________

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Well in theory.

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Post #: 223
- 7/30/2003 5:29:49 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pry
[B]Interesting how this thread got Hi-Jacked :D While the U-boats were very effective early on, They never really caused more than temporary shortages to the UK. Gains to the merchant fleet from new construction and the addition of Allied vessels to that fleet far exceeded Germanys ability to deal with it. You can twist the numbers anyway you want to and what if it to death but it still comes out the same.

Now The Details...

1939 - 1941 Existing and constructed tonnage Totals
(Great Britain & Commonwealth, United States, Norway, Netherlands, France, Belgium)

48,359,058 (Existing and new construction thru 1941)
-9,267458 (Sunk by Germans thru 1941)
39.191,600 (Total Left to allies thru 1941)
-13,407,267 (lets take out US existing and construction just for grins thru 1941)

+25,784,333 (Still left to UK and Allies at the end of 1941)

Sorry Mr Von Ron, from where I sit your dog don't hunt...


Existing Merchant Tonnage, 1939

Great Britain 21,001,925
United States 11,470,177
Norway 4,833,813
Netherlands 2,969,578
France 2,933,933
Belgium 408,418

Total 43,617,844

Annual Allied production of Merchant Shipping *Tonnage Launched

Note this does not count existing tonnage and tonnage gained from other countries this is only new construction.

USA/UK/Commonwealth = Total Launched

1939
376,419
629,705
36,142
1,042,266

1940
528,697
842,910
18,886
1,390,493

1941
1,031,974
1,185,894
90,595
2,308,455

US = 1,937,090
UK = 2,658,509
CW = 145,623
Total new construction thru 1941 = 4,741,222

(The Allied ramp up also just for grins)
1942
5,479,766
1,270,714
720,172
7,488,652

1943
11,448,360
1,136,804
1,002,850
13,588,014

1944
9,288,156
919,357
692,405
10,899,918

1945
5,839,858
393,515
141,893
6,375,266

1939 - 1945 Totals
USA= 33,993,230
UK= 6,378,899
CW= 2,702,943
43,075,072

Source, World War Two, A Statistical Survey
1993, John Ellis, ISBN 0-8160-2971-7



Same source lists 2579 total "Allied" vessels sunk (9,267,458 Tons) by the end of 1941. The assumption that 2,500 of these were British vessels is not correct these were from all ALLIED nations thru the end of 1941. [/B][/QUOTE]


pry:

None of the info you provided is in dispute. Neither have I twisted any facts.

You have, however, committed the same sin as Blair (which for an historian is unpardonable); that being, you have looked back in hindsight, seen the end, seen all that has happened, and then drawn your conclusions.

In 1939/40, nothing was known about the outcome of the war. Yes, you can add up all the US tonnage you want, but at the time, the US was staunchly isolationist.

The reports coming in to Churchill showed that by the end of 1940, over 1,000 ships had been sunk, or roughly 1/3 of all pre-WWII British merchant shipping.

The British did not know at the time that the Germans were blowing their chances by not having built large numbers of U-boats. They had to assume from the numbers that the Germans would continue to pursue a rather successful policy - ie continue attacking shipping to strangle Britain.

That the Germans did not build U-boats sooner or in larger numbers, is left out of the equation in both your and Blair's analysis.

Again, we all know what the numbers are. The problem is, that Blair reached the wrong conclusion, based on hindsight, rather than placing the entire U-boat war within the larger context of Germany having failed to capilaize on it sooner.

If 1,000 ships had been sunk by the end of 1940 by such a relatively small U-boat fleet (only 57 operational boats in 1939), you can be rest assured that if 100 or 120 U-boats had been ready by 1939 (and if the Germans had continued to build 20 U-boats per month thereafter), then the additional number of merchant ships sinking would have been even greater, almost to the point of catastrophe.

Churchill well knew the consequences of what would happen if:

1) Germany invaded Britain (rather than turning east); and

2) What would happen if more and more U-boats were sent against British shipping.

We can only thank our lucky stars that Hitler was basically stupid, strategically, and did not do either. Especially, when the U-boat blockade in 1917 had almost brought Britain to her knees.

Well, Mr. pry, thanks for being an accomplice to the hijacking :D

Will you take my dog out for a walk?

Woof! Woof!

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Post #: 224
U-boat bases - 7/30/2003 6:04:27 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Von Rom The U-boats were not truely effective before June 1940 (when Germany aquired bases on the Atlantic in France)
Prior to this their range was reduced and they were exposed to mines and tracking when leaving port. (although the shortage of Allied assets curtailed full exploiting of this)
Once they had the French bases the U-boats were able to range farther into the mid Atlantic. The allies had their code breaking and were able to route ships around the known U-boat locations (this would be harder if facing more U-boats.

Also it was the single ship that suffered the most in 39-41
Convoys did protect the ships. More U-boats would almost certainly force the end of single ship transits and produce larger convoys. The result would still be U-boats sinking merchants but also more U-boats lost. Even Drumroll eventully forced the USN into convoy.

I don't think anyone will dispute that without counter measure the U-boats could develop into a real war altering weapon.
However the allies did demonstrate they could and would develop counter measure. (The eventual decline of the U-boat dispite increasing numbers is evidence of this)

So we are left with the orginal question. Could they defeat Britian faster? Was there no alternative action for the British? (I am surprised they continued to allow solo ship transits as often and long as they did given the proven protection afforded by convoys)

Were there no routes affording better coverage from U-boats. (before the CVE come onto the scene)

Hindsight is always 20/20 but history is also a record of people stumbling blind into problems and then resolving them. (or being defeated) The allies solved their problems the Germans did not.

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Post #: 225
- 7/30/2003 6:15:11 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Because Blair appears to be looking at the big picture, not just counting ships. If one just looks at the raw tonnage, yes it looks very impressive. As you noted, at one period his research shows more ships sunk that the sources you quote. But the question, is and remains, was Britian at the 'brink' and he says no and provides numbers that go beyond the raw tonnage.[/QUOTE]

I'll repeat my above post here.

Blair commits a no-no (which for an historian is unpardonable); that being, he has looked back in hindsight, seen the end, seen all that has happened, and then drawn his conclusions. Basically, he has equated hindsight with war-time experience and knowledge.

In 1939/40, nothing was known about the outcome of the war. Yes, you can add up all the US tonnage you want, but at the time, the US was staunchly isolationist.

The reports coming in to Churchill showed that by the end of 1940, over 1,000 ships had been sunk, or roughly 1/3 of all pre-WWII British merchant shipping.

The British did not know at the time that the Germans were blowing their chances by not having built large numbers of U-boats. They had to assume from the numbers that the Germans would continue to pursue a rather successful policy - ie continue attacking shipping to strangle Britain.

That the Germans did not build U-boats sooner or in larger numbers, is left out of the equation in both your and Blair's analysis.

Again, we all know what the numbers are. The problem is, that Blair reached the wrong conclusion, based on hindsight, rather than placing the entire U-boat war within the larger context of Germany having failed to capitalize on it sooner.

If 1,000 ships had been sunk by the end of 1940 by such a relatively small U-boat fleet (only 57 operational boats in 1939), you can be rest assured that if 100, 120 or 150 U-boats had been ready by 1939 (and if the Germans had continued to build 20 U-boats per month thereafter), then the additional number of merchant ships sinking would have been even greater, almost to the point of catastrophe.

This is what Blair has failed to do. In fact, the U-boat was a successful instrument of blocade. This was proven in 1917.

Churchill well knew the consequences of what would happen if:

1) Germany invaded Britain (rather than turning east); and

2) What would happen if more and more U-boats were sent against British shipping.

We can only thank our lucky stars that Hitler was basically stupid, strategically, and did not do either. Especially, when the U-boat blockade in 1917 had almost brought Britain to her knees.

[QUOTE]Yes, but these quotes do not give data. They give opinions, and all this stuff about Churchill.....you know i like the man but given his temperament and agendas i'm not going to simply take his fears about the uboats as fact especially when there are no figures behind it.[/QUOTE]

His temperment and fears?

In 1940 Churchill was the head of a country that faced Germany all alone. It was attacked at sea (imagine today 4 ships sinking every day, day in and day out, year after year), while at the same time being bombed mercilessly for months in the Battle of Britain and thereafter for many more months in the "Blitz". Add to this the fact that Britain was always just three weeks away from dire food shortages, and finally couple this with the unknown problem that Germany might invade the island.

Yet during all this time, he never faltered, but was the main instrument of strengthening the nation in what seemed at that time, to be a hopeless situation.

If that is the measure of the man, then I want to drink what he drank. . . :)



[QUOTE]Well since were arguing data partially the fact that Blair's figures show 1,124 British and Neutral ships sunk between sept 39 and Dec 41.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know his figures show this low number. He is using only the number of ships sunk by U-boats, rather than using the total number of ships sunk by all causes. The REAL number of ships sunk between 1939-41 is close to 2,500 ships.

Using only the data of ships sunk by U-boats is like using the number of subs sunk just by destroyers, rather from all causes.

By doing this, Blair (unintentinally?) reduces both the scope of the number of merchant sinkings, and thus the threat the U-boat posed.

Incidently, many merchants were sunk by mines laid by U-boats along British harbours.


[QUOTE]If Mr. Churchill would be so kind as to post his statistics i'd be most greatly appreciative [/QUOTE]

During the war he was briefed every day. Perhaps you might like to read his multi-volume history of WWII.

[QUOTE]By "Starving" i reference the true purpose and goal of the uboats in two world wars.......embargo, the choking off of Britian's lifeline for a nation that cannot feed itself or it's economy without it's merchant fleet. I consider that a good defintion for "at the brink" which you've mentioned numeruos times. From what i can see the boats did not come close to achieving this 39-41. As for this 3 week interuption you keep mentioning, how the hell is this going to happen when it never came close to happening historically?[/QUOTE]

Why do you think he, as well as so many British obsessed over the U-boats? They knew how thin their lifeline really was.

It was a war of attritrion.

[QUOTE]Assumption. It might also have led to more sunken Uboats. Regardless, i cannot entertain the build more Uboats theory in a vaccuum. Had Germany devoted substantially more resources to the 'boots' there most likely would have been a reaction. The Uboots also needed other factors changed in addition to more numbers. [/QUOTE]

Assumption.

Britain was un-prepared for the U-boat war. More U-boats would have strangled Britain's lifeline.

And Churchill knew it.

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Post #: 226
Cause and effect - 7/30/2003 6:25:01 AM   
mogami


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The Battle of the Atlantic came to a climax between March and May 1943. In the three winter months from December 1942 to February 1943, bad weather and evasive routeing of convoys ensured that losses were comparatively fewer than in the previous autumn, though sinkings in the North Atlantic still reached 119 ships (723,451 tons). However, from the end of February onwards, fortified by a U-boat operational strength nearing its zenith and a break down in Allied Ultra intelligence during the first three weeks of March, German submarines again began to enjoy great success in the mid-Atlantic gap where Allied air cover still did not reach.

Over the next twenty days, the wolf packs, which now had a strength of one hundred in the North and Central Atlantic, wrought such havoc that Allied losses again began to reach the devastating levels of 1942. One of the biggest engagements of the war took place between 16-20 March when twenty U-boats attacked two eastbound convoys totalling 100 ships. At the cost of only one U- boat, the Germans sank 21 ships, with a combined 141,000 tonnage. The overall figure for March in the North Atlantic was 476,349 tons, about 75% of the world total, with 82 of the 108 ships lost in this theatre. Most serious of all was that nearly two-thirds of these losses had been sunk while sailing in convoy. The Admiralty considered that this was the closest the Germans ever came to breaking the transatlantic lifeline between Britain and America.

However, this possibility was only a fleeting one as, over the next two months, the German offensive faltered rapidly. The foundation of the change in fortunes had been laid in January when the British and US leaders conferred at the Casablanca Conference. Churchill and Roosevelt decided that the defeat of the U-boat must become the Allies' top priority. The liberation of Europe would never be able to go ahead until the Battle of the Atlantic had been won.

The reason I used the above quote is to show that once the Allies became "afraid" they reacted quickly to end the U-boat menace. Prior to this they just took their lumps and tried to improve things. Once the U-boats got into a convoy and did damage they said "enough" The long range aircraft were available earlier. (They were just considered more vital to other missions. When this was questioned they were moved to fight U-boats and quickly succeeded. Would Bomber Command not have been able to provide more aircraft sooner? Once Winston got really afraid he put Bomber Command aircraft into anti U-boat operations.

Since this 1943 U-boat attack on convoy is what we are claiming would take place in 1940 is the 1943 allied reaction what we could expect in 1940 as well? (admitting both sides still would have much to learn)

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Post #: 227
- 7/30/2003 6:31:19 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Strat
[B]I have no stat's to argue or discuss either way, but I do know this as fact. As close as it can be, cause in no way, shape, or form will I call my grandfather a lier.
My 77 (almost 78) year old grand dad, "Peter Macro" and I have discussed this thread during sunday afternoon over a few drinks at our local Ex-Sevicemans Club with one or two other old timers, and I'm almost afraid to say that the early years of convoy's was a nerve racking experience for them. My Grand dad was a merchantman from his early teens, even going to sea at 15, such was his dedication to become a man, "well that's what you did" he confidently tell's me, with agreement from the other older chaps.
On several accasions within the first two years of war he remembers U-boat attacks, fortunately my Grand fathers boat was never hit, but he remember's many that were and the convoy would spend very little time surching for survivers, because every hour that they spent in the ocean there ship was a target for the U-boat.
All the merchant navy feared the U-boat, but he has rather confidently confirmed that an extra 150 U-boats would not have stopped the convoy's, at worst, maybe only made the war last a few months longer.

When I asked if he thought that England was in any real danger from the U-boats, after lengthy discussion he and friends aggreed that this was probably/possibly the reason for such heavy shortages and ration cards given to the entire nation during the war, so (almost unaminous)(spelling) yes the U-bouts did poise a major threat to the British economy/war effort in the early years of WW2 and yes an extra 150 boats would have been a major problem. But I have been assured that it would have been no worse than they/I have already stated in the last paragraph.
I personally think that an extra 150 or a total of 300 operational U-bouts would have almost certainly posed as an incredibly threat to our (British) merchant shipping during the early war years, probably not a war winner but certainly a war lengthener.
It is only speculation as to how long this may be, as we all know when the war in europe finished. Maybe three day's longer, mayber three months or at an extreme, six months, but I dought six months, the outcome would still be the same I think..

Thanx for listening.

Strat.. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is perhaps the wisest post in the entire thread.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

I cannot imagine what it must have been like to be aboard a merchant facing the threat of U-boat attack.

Just look at how everything has changed for us just because of three airliners and 19 men on 9/11. Everyone appears to be more anxious; feeling less secure. . .

Cheers!

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Post #: 228
- 7/30/2003 6:53:28 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
Mogami:

[QUOTE]Hi, Von Rom The U-boats were not truely effective before June 1940 (when Germany aquired bases on the Atlantic in France)[/QUOTE]

True. But we also have to take into account the fact many U-boats were sent into Norwegian waters for some time. This left them away from shipping lanes.

Also, Hitler had ordered the number of U-boats being built to be reduced (thinking Britain would surrender after France fell).

[QUOTE]The allies had their code breaking and were able to route ships around the known U-boat locations (this would be harder if facing more U-boats.[/QUOTE]


This did not come into effect until mid-1941.

The Enigma machine came from a captured U-boat in May 1941. Armed with information about where U-boats were patrolling, the British were able to move convoys in safe areas, away from the wolfpacks.

However, the code-breakers at Bletchley Park had a constant battle to keep their information current. German changes to the naval Enigma code at the beginning of 1942 led to a rise in Allied sinkings, as the flow of Ultra intelligence temporarily ceased.



[QUOTE]I don't think anyone will dispute that without counter measure the U-boats could develop into a real war altering weapon.[/QUOTE]

True. But that was a mistake of Germany. Germany gave the Allies the time to develop all these counters, etc.

Again, many, many stupid mistakes by Hitler led to the Allies making a comeback.

Had things been implemented a bit better, it would have been another story.

[QUOTE]So we are left with the orginal question. Could they defeat Britian faster? Was there no alternative action for the British? (I am surprised they continued to allow solo ship transits as often and long as they did given the proven protection afforded by convoys)[/QUOTE]

Yes, Germany could have defeated Britain - no question.

This is why Churchill was so worried - he knew the real state of Britain in 1940/41.

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Post #: 229
Re: Cause and effect - 7/30/2003 7:01:36 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]The Battle of the Atlantic came to a climax between March and May 1943. In the three winter months from December 1942 to February 1943, bad weather and evasive routeing of convoys ensured that losses were comparatively fewer than in the previous autumn, though sinkings in the North Atlantic still reached 119 ships (723,451 tons). However, from the end of February onwards, fortified by a U-boat operational strength nearing its zenith and a break down in Allied Ultra intelligence during the first three weeks of March, German submarines again began to enjoy great success in the mid-Atlantic gap where Allied air cover still did not reach.

Over the next twenty days, the wolf packs, which now had a strength of one hundred in the North and Central Atlantic, wrought such havoc that Allied losses again began to reach the devastating levels of 1942. One of the biggest engagements of the war took place between 16-20 March when twenty U-boats attacked two eastbound convoys totalling 100 ships. At the cost of only one U- boat, the Germans sank 21 ships, with a combined 141,000 tonnage. The overall figure for March in the North Atlantic was 476,349 tons, about 75% of the world total, with 82 of the 108 ships lost in this theatre. Most serious of all was that nearly two-thirds of these losses had been sunk while sailing in convoy. The Admiralty considered that this was the closest the Germans ever came to breaking the transatlantic lifeline between Britain and America.

However, this possibility was only a fleeting one as, over the next two months, the German offensive faltered rapidly. The foundation of the change in fortunes had been laid in January when the British and US leaders conferred at the Casablanca Conference. Churchill and Roosevelt decided that the defeat of the U-boat must become the Allies' top priority. The liberation of Europe would never be able to go ahead until the Battle of the Atlantic had been won.

The reason I used the above quote is to show that once the Allies became "afraid" they reacted quickly to end the U-boat menace. Prior to this they just took their lumps and tried to improve things. Once the U-boats got into a convoy and did damage they said "enough" The long range aircraft were available earlier. (They were just considered more vital to other missions. When this was questioned they were moved to fight U-boats and quickly succeeded. Would Bomber Command not have been able to provide more aircraft sooner? Once Winston got really afraid he put Bomber Command aircraft into anti U-boat operations.

Since this 1943 U-boat attack on convoy is what we are claiming would take place in 1940 is the 1943 allied reaction what we could expect in 1940 as well? (admitting both sides still would have much to learn) [/B][/QUOTE]

I think it was less this attack on convoys, then it was the sheer amount of time it took (and the time Germany gave the Allies) to build all the counter-measures, have all the ships and planes, etc, and to co-ordinate everything, so that by 1943, the Allies could effectively counter the U-boats once and for all.

The Allies were lucky that Germany gave them 4 years to get their acts together.

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Post #: 230
- 7/30/2003 7:08:10 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
I would just like to add this:

For all those reading this, especially for the younger adults, who may not know that much history, go to your local libraries and get some good history books on the following topics:

1) The Battle of Britain

2) The U-boat War

3) A general history book detailing the events form 1939 to 1943 and WWII in general.

4) Take out any videos on WWII that may be available

Get to know the personalities involved; develop a sense of place; and find out more about the events. All these things will help make history come alive for you.

You will see what a close call the west had, especially in the first couple years.

As most wargamers know, history is not dead; it is a living thing, and can often surprise us by making return visits. . .

Cheers!

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Post #: 231
Totals for War - 7/30/2003 7:34:43 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, These totals are for the entire war (actions by Japanese included)




Location Number of British, Allied, neutral ships
Total Gross Registered Tonnage

North Atlantic 2,232
11,900,000 tons (avg ship size 5.3kT)(Liberty ship 9kT)

South Atlantic 174
1,024,000 tons (avg ship size 5.9kT)

UK waters 1,431
3,768,000 tons (avg ship size 2.6kt)(reflecting the smaller nature of the coastal traffic. Adds considerable number to total ship lost without adding corrasponding weight to tonnage lost)

Mediterranean 413
1,740,000 tons

Indian Ocean 385
1,790,000 tons

Pacific Ocean 515
1,348,000 tons


By Cause

Causes* in order of tonnage sunk
(1. 4. ... - Order when weapon first introduced)
Number of British, Allied, neutral ships
Total Gross Registered Tonnage

1. Submarines 2,828
14,686,000 tons (avg ship size 5.2k)

4. Aircraft 820
2,890,000 tons (Avg ship size 3.2k) (again because mostly coastal shipping)

2. Mines 534
1,406,000 tons

5. Other causes 632
1,030,000 tons

6. Raiders 133
830,000 tons

3. Warships 104
498,000 tons

7. Coastal forces 99
230,000 tons

other then subs and AC 3,994,000t 1502 ships (avg ship size 2.6k)(seems a lot of non trans ocean vessels get counted into total. While they were still important they were for movement of material or commerical ships (many trawlers found their way into total and I don't think they quite belong there in refering to survival of Britian)

By the way I find the whole topic very interesting and have learned alot the last few days.

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Post #: 232
Re: Totals for War - 7/30/2003 9:02:17 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, These totals are for the entire war (actions by Japanese included)

Location Number of British, Allied, neutral ships
Total Gross Registered Tonnage

North Atlantic 2,232
11,900,000 tons (avg ship size 5.3kT)(Liberty ship 9kT)

South Atlantic 174
1,024,000 tons (avg ship size 5.9kT)

UK waters 1,431
3,768,000 tons (avg ship size 2.6kt)(reflecting the smaller nature of the coastal traffic. Adds considerable number to total ship lost without adding corrasponding weight to tonnage lost)

Mediterranean 413
1,740,000 tons

Indian Ocean 385
1,790,000 tons

Pacific Ocean 515
1,348,000 tons


By Cause

Causes* in order of tonnage sunk
(1. 4. ... - Order when weapon first introduced)
Number of British, Allied, neutral ships
Total Gross Registered Tonnage

1. Submarines 2,828
14,686,000 tons (avg ship size 5.2k)

4. Aircraft 820
2,890,000 tons (Avg ship size 3.2k) (again because mostly coastal shipping)

2. Mines 534
1,406,000 tons

5. Other causes 632
1,030,000 tons

6. Raiders 133
830,000 tons

3. Warships 104
498,000 tons

7. Coastal forces 99
230,000 tons

other then subs and AC 3,994,000t 1502 ships (avg ship size 2.6k)(seems a lot of non trans ocean vessels get counted into total. While they were still important they were for movement of material or commerical ships (many trawlers found their way into total and I don't think they quite belong there in refering to survival of Britian)

By the way I find the whole topic very interesting and have learned alot the last few days. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing the info Mogami :)

And I find it a very interesting topic too.

Hehe - librarians will probably be wondering why the sudden rush of people wanting to take out books about submarine warfare. . .

BTW, I'm wondering if the UV game engine would be practical for a game simulating West Europe/Atlantic/Med in the 1939-42 time period. It could include our beloved topic - the Battle of the Atlantic. And imagine the air battles over Britain. . .

I think we've already done all the research for the game in this thread :)

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Post #: 233
IJN subs - 7/30/2003 9:32:04 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, You should see the plans I'm making for the IJN subs off the West Coast and on routes to Australia. I'm planning capture of bases for use by my subs according to their range. (Japan has at least 70 boats on 7 Dec 41) I'm hoping subs (for both sides) get a first turn movement bonus (they can move any where but use fuel accordingly) I always placed 6-8 subs off US West Coast I've added to where now I move 12-16 (the bulk of my subs have shorter legs and will move to new bases in South Pacific. With 24 working out of Kwajalein around Pearl Harbor.

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Post #: 234
- 7/30/2003 10:08:54 AM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]None of the info you provided is in dispute. Neither have I twisted any facts.[/B][/QUOTE]
I did not say you twisted facts, something got lost in the translation between Southern ways of expressing a thought and other folks understanding the meaning. The jist of the statement means that one can make numbers mean anything they want them to mean and one can add whatever "What If" scenario's they wish to make their point but after all the tweaking the starting point and outcome have not changed.

[QUOTE][B]You have, however, committed the same sin as Blair (which for an historian is unpardonable); that being, you have looked back in hindsight, seen the end, seen all that has happened, and then drawn your conclusions...[/B][/QUOTE]

Well all I can do is look at the numbers at the end of 1941 the Allied nations (US excluded) still possessed 25,784,333 tons of shipping, which was more than UK's total at the wars start.

I will grant you that a small number of U-boats wreaked havoc to the Allied Merchant Fleets thru the end of 1941. I also grant you that your scenario makes one think but in the end I still come to the same conclusion. However I am enjoying this thread.

Your premise indicates that with 200 U-boats the UK would have lost the war. Taking your "What If" scenario then the numbers from 1941 lend the best comparative results to consider, 194 Operational U-boats by years end sank 1200 vessels of 4.4 million tons. German peak production reached 23 units per month in 1942 and remained steady around 20 per month afterwards. So for the sake of you're what if we will assume the Germans had 200 u-boats and were producing 20 a month in 1939.

Now backtrack to the war's start the Allies Had 34 million tons of shipping, at 4.4 million tons sunk per year (with 200 u-boats) they had nearly 8 years worth of shipping (not counting new construction or any US tonnage in the numbers above) So at this rate the Allies had shipping to last into 1947 before running out. Even if the Japanese had not attacked the US the Isolationist US would have been drawn into the war well before 1947 and then when you add her tonnage and escorts, even with 200 operational U-boats the Germans could not have sunk enough to alter the outcome sure it would have been painful at times but in the end it still the same result.

Also consider the allies did not get serious about the u-boat menace until 1942 up to that time convoys would consist of 20 to 60 vessels with 4-5 escorts and losses were large. When escort was increased along with improved ASW the Germans starting losing ground quickly. I see no reason why the Allies would not have allotted more resources earlier if there were 200 operational U-boats in 1939. Early in the war the allies were concerned with the losses but not overly so. A 20 ship troop convoy would sail with up to 15 escorts and suffer little loss. The Brits were more concerned with troops than supplies and allocated escort resources accordingly.


[QUOTE][B]Well, Mr. pry, thanks for being an accomplice to the hijacking[/B][/QUOTE]

Guilty as charged… I saw the cookie jar sitting there and I know momma said No!
but I just could not help myself…..





[QUOTE][B]Will you take my dog out for a walk? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well that ole mutt still doesn't hunt but he is interesting…

In case anyone is interested here are the hulls/tonnage for the major belligerents in 1939

Allied
Belguim 200/408,014
Commonwealth 2255/3,110,791
Denmark 705/1,174,944
France 1231/2,933,933
Greece 607/1,780,666
Netherlands 1523/2,969,578
Norway 1987/4,833,813
UK 6722/17,891,134
US 2345/8,909,892 *1939 number
Axis
Germany 2459/4,482,662
Italy 1227/3,424,804
Japan 1609/5,996,607 *1941 number

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 235
- 7/30/2003 11:31:50 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
I'll repeat my above post here.

Blair commits a no-no (which for an historian is unpardonable); that being, he has looked back in hindsight, seen the end, seen all that has happened, and then drawn his conclusions. Basically, he has equated hindsight with war-time experience and knowledge.



i see, so bereft of the facts, your suggesting the British would not have realized that their economy was not grinding to a halt and their food sources not running dry so they would have surrendered? I dont agree. I think the British would have fought to last shell. Call me a romantic but i do ;)

quote:


In 1939/40, nothing was known about the outcome of the war. Yes, you can add up all the US tonnage you want, but at the time, the US was staunchly isolationist.

The reports coming in to Churchill showed that by the end of 1940, over 1,000 ships had been sunk, or roughly 1/3 of all pre-WWII British merchant shipping.


I dont follow your logic here. It would seem to go against the positive glow you've been attaching to Mr Churchill :)


quote:


The British did not know at the time that the Germans were blowing their chances by not having built large numbers of U-boats. They had to assume from the numbers that the Germans would continue to pursue a rather successful policy - ie continue attacking shipping to strangle Britain.

That the Germans did not build U-boats sooner or in larger numbers, is left out of the equation in both your and Blair's analysis.


Nope.

From Blair:

"Hitler erred not only in failing to provide a vigerous increase in Uboat production but also in his insistance on diverting large #'s of Uboats to norway, the Artic and the Med"

"That huge enterprise [conquest of the Soviet Union] diverted men and material from the construction of Uboats, the one weapons system that had any chance of isolating and defeating Great Britian."

Before you jump on this and say YES!!!! more UBOATS, Blair goes on to list other factors and errors made by both sides, by Hitler, by Doenitz, by the British Admiralty etc etc. A connected web of cause and effects.

I am truely lost now Von Rom. Are you now seriously suggesting, in the absence of disproving Blair's numbers that the British, in "ignorance" of whats going on with their ecnomy would give in to defeatism by assuming an inevitable Germany victory? No....dont agree, i think, as Mogami mentioned that the British would have "gotten serious" alot sooner and a hell of a lot quicker, particularily in the re-prioritization when it came to allocating aircraft.

quote:



Again, we all know what the numbers are. The problem is, that Blair reached the wrong conclusion, based on hindsight, rather than placing the entire U-boat war within the larger context of Germany having failed to capitalize on it sooner.



No, i think he acomplishes the opposite, showing that while serious, the Uboats never came close to achieving the ultimate goal which is all his book was trying to do......well at least before the USA got into it....then you might argue......other agendas, but that isn't the focus of the last couple pages. In the end he lists causes and effects of the 9/39 - 12/41 war and does not deem to declare a "winner" due to various factors....I liked his quote, which has merit here, "The British had not defeated the Uboat force, rather, they had taken the necessary steps to prevent it from defeating them."

quote:



If 1,000 ships had been sunk by the end of 1940 by such a relatively small U-boat fleet (only 57 operational boats in 1939), you can be rest assured that if 100, 120 or 150 U-boats had been ready by 1939 (and if the Germans had continued to build 20 U-boats per month thereafter), then the additional number of merchant ships sinking would have been even greater, almost to the point of catastrophe.



I told you i'm not going to entertain such "vaccuum thoughts", add 150 Uboats, and i say add more British escorts, more serious allocation of aircraft to Coastal Command, and more agressive counter-measures. You are free to suggest such one sided scenerios, and i dont mean "one sided" as in favoring one nation, rather, the changing of variables on only one side of the conflict without considering what changes said variables would enable on the other. I had a friend who did this constantly in concern to the Eastern Front.....always change this or that on the German side without considering at all what the Soviets might do or think.

quote:


This is what Blair has failed to do. In fact, the U-boat was a successful instrument of blocade. This was proven in 1917.


Indeed, as proven when the Grand Fleet sailed into Kiel harbor to surrender. ;)

quote:



Churchill well knew the consequences of what would happen if:

1) Germany invaded Britain (rather than turning east); and

2) What would happen if more and more U-boats were sent against British shipping.

We can only thank our lucky stars that Hitler was basically stupid, strategically, and did not do either. Especially, when the U-boat blockade in 1917 had almost brought Britain to her knees.



1. Uh, assuming that Germany could have pulled off Sealion (no, dont go there....another thread ;) )

2. Sigh, the "Its all Hitler's fault" argument. As if there were not other equally important factors. You know, i dont think Blair is the only author to point out other factors and decisions on both sides.


quote:



His temperment and fears?

In 1940 Churchill was the head of a country that faced Germany all alone. It was attacked at sea (imagine today 4 ships sinking every day, day in and day out, year after year), while at the same time being bombed mercilessly for months in the Battle of Britain and thereafter for many more months in the "Blitz". Add to this the fact that Britain was always just three weeks away from dire food shortages, and finally couple this with the unknown problem that Germany might invade the island.

Yet during all this time, he never faltered, but was the main instrument of strengthening the nation in what seemed at that time, to be a hopeless situation.


You are presenting diametrically opposed viewpoints here. On the one hand you prop up Churchill until he takes on nearly diety status, then suggest with the other that he and his government will crack under the stress of fighting the Battle of the Atlantic. It doesn't make sense to me. And again, whats this "three weeks away from starvation thing"? Are you again suggesting somehow someway the Uboats will succeed in totally cutting off Britian's lifeline when they historically did not come close?
I think he was made of stern stuff, and would not crack.

quote:


If that is the measure of the man, then I want to drink what he drank. . . :)


At this stage, i think i just want a drink.....period ;)

quote:



Yes, I know his figures show this low number. He is using only the number of ships sunk by U-boats, rather than using the total number of ships sunk by all causes. The REAL number of ships sunk between 1939-41 is close to 2,500 ships.

Using only the data of ships sunk by U-boats is like using the number of subs sunk just by destroyers, rather from all causes.

By doing this, Blair (unintentinally?) reduces both the scope of the number of merchant sinkings, and thus the threat the U-boat posed.



Huh? We've been talking about Uboats, now you wish to broaden the scope again......fine. Fact remains, The British merchant fleet ended 41 bigger than it started in 39, so fine, add these other factors. It doens't matter. Britian was not close to folding. period.

quote:


Incidently, many merchants were sunk by mines laid by U-boats along British harbours.


Incidently, had the British not chosen evasion tactics, their kill ratios against uboats would have gone up. Changing their priorities at war's start to hunting uboats vs other ventures such as bombing cities would have been interesting too :)

quote:



During the war he was briefed every day. Perhaps you might like to read his multi-volume history of WWII.



no thanks, i'd rather you post the data i've asked for since you apparantly have read it ;)


quote:


Why do you think he, as well as so many British obsessed over the U-boats? They knew how thin their lifeline really was.

It was a war of attritrion.



No, i think he was obsessed with it because they were thinking worst case scenerio, that they remembered the dark days of WWI, and that they needed to convince the Americans that it should be their biggest concern too. There is nothing wrong with this viewpoint. They'd have been fools to do otherwise. I actually dont know why Blair puzzles over it unless he is as you say, trapped too much in an American view of things.


quote:



Britain was un-prepared for the U-boat war. More U-boats would have strangled Britain's lifeline.

And Churchill knew it. [/B][/QUOTE]

no, dont agree one bit. Winning the tonnage war was far more complicated than simply adding more Uboats.

Britian was unprepared, so was Germany. Hence you can keep suggesting Germany suddenly preparing better while keeping the British static would "tip the edge" that has not been proven to have been so closely reached, but i dont see history that way. action creates re-action.

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 236
U-boats - 7/30/2003 12:20:14 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, I don't see the British or USA ever surrendering. (Norway was occupid but never surrendered) By late 1940 early 1941 every one knew you could not surrender to Germany. You had no choice but to fight to the bitter end. By mid May 1942 everyone knew this was also true of Japan.

Germany would have to change more policey then the number of U-boats they built to force the surrender of anyone. Even the Balkans fought as hard as they could. (With many people never laying down arms)

How many U-boats did Germany have when WWI began. (off to the research) Don't tell me they made the same mistakes twice?

(amazing the WWI U-boats sank 12,850,000tons)

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Post #: 237
- 7/31/2003 6:58:10 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
Rather than reply to all of you individually: pry, Nikodemus, and Mogami, I will present the evidence here.

Much has been made about tonnage, about the number of ships that have gotten through to Britain, etc, etc.

This is Blair's central thesis:

". . . the U-boat peril in World war II was and has been vastly overblown: threat inflation on a classically grand scale." (Blair, pXIII).

Yet, between 1939-1941, Germany sank 2,500 Allied ships (mainly British) which represented 83% of all of Britain's pre-war Merchant shipping.

This was not a crisis??

The fact that 200, or 300, or even 900 convoys got through to Britain, means NOTHING. That's right - nothing.

What matters is a) how many ships are in those convoys; b) what those ships are carrying; and c) are the amounts they are carrying sufficient for Britain's needs.

I have found sufficient information so that we have a clearer picture of British imports and the effectiveness of Germany's attempts to isolate Britain and deprive her of the supplies she required.

Winston Churchill

In a report to Parliament in 1940, Churchill stated that in order for Britain to hold on, she required at least 20 ships, loaded with with 120,000 tons of food and fuel, to unload in British ports EVERY DAY.

Let's do the math:

This means Britain required 120,000 x 30 days = 3,600,000 tons of food and fuel EACH MONTH in order to hold on in the war against Germany.

Next I'm going to use Blair's own figures. For those of you who have the first volume of his book, the page I am referring to is page 699, Plate 14: "Comparison of Imports to the UK".

Let's look at the Totals column for the years 1941 and 1942. I find it odd that he does not include any data for the years 1939 and 1940. But don't worry I will supply that info for you.

Under the year 1941, we see that the total imports coming into Britain by ship and convoy for 8 months. It seems that 4 months are missing from his data. But no matter.

British Imports (in thousands of tons):

1941:

Jan - 2,954
Feb - 2,994
Mar - 3,340
April - 3,237
May - 3,954
June - 3,984
July - 3,875
August - 4,128

1942:

Jan - 3,043
Feb - 3,006
Mar - 2,666
April - 2,996
May - 2,837
June - 2,865
July - 3,154
August - 2,835

We know that Britain required 3,600,000 tons of food and fuel each month.

It is very clear from Blair's own data that in 1941, this requirement was not met in Jan, Feb, Mar, and April. It was only met in May, June, July and August.

It is very interesting that British imports were exceeded only in these 4 months in 1941, because this was when Hitler intervened in the U-boat campaign and orderd Doenitz to send 12 U-boats from the Atlantic shipping lanes to be sent to the Mediterranean. This effectivley gave Britain a badly needed break, and so convoys were getting through unmolested. (Source: Chronicles of WWII, pp. 222-3).

In 1942, Britain's import requirements for the 8 months listed WERE NEVER MET, effectively representing a short-fall of food and fuel.

Blair himself states:

"This was a decline in basic imports of about 5 million tons, and it led to very real hardships in the British Isles - food, heating, fuel, and gasoline shortages, among others - and to serious second thoughts about diverting so much shipping to provide aid to the Soviet Union and about embarkig on further military campaigns such as Torch; it led as well to renewed demands on Washington for a larger share of the shipping allocations" (Blair, Vol 1, p. 699).

The U-boat threat was overblown?

1940:

Total imports for 1940 were 42,000,000 tons (see below for source). Since we know that 43,200,000 tons is the min (3,600,000/month x 12), then Britain DID NOT MEET ITS IMPORT REQUIREMENTS for all of 1940.

1939:

Total imports for 1939 were 50,000,000 tons. This number exceeded Britain's minimum requirements. This was mainly due to the war having just started and the U-boats had not entered into their full war footing.


********************************

The following abbreviated information regarding Britain's import crisis is by:

RICHARD M. LEIGHTON, Faculty, Industrial College of the Armed Forces. Harvard University, University of Cincinnati, Cornell University, Ph.D. Taught: Brooklyn College, University of Cincinnati, The George Washington University. Historical Officer, Headquarters, Army Service Forces, 1943-46. Historian, OCMH, 1948-59. Co-author: Global Logistics and Strategy, 1940-1943 (Washington, 1955) and Global Logistics and Strategy, 1943-1945 (in preparation), UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II.


U.S. Merchant Shipping and the British Import Crisis

by Richard M. Leighton



The drain on British Merchant Shipping during 1942, which Britain's new ally was not yet able to make good, posed a serious and growing threat to the British War Economy. The heart of that economy lay in the industries and people of the United Kingdom, which depended for their very existence on an uninterrupted flow of imports. These had already declined from a prewar average of more than 50 million deadweight tons [in 1939] to 42 million in 1940 and 31 million in 1941. In 1942, despite desperate efforts to arrest the decline and increased assistance from the United States, they fell to 23 million. Even with drastic curtailment of domestic consumption and services and increased local production of food and munitions, this was far less than was needed to meet current requirements. Britain had to eat into its stocks, which by the end of the year had fallen an estimated 2.5 million tons to a level dangerously near what the War Cabinet had decided must be regarded as irreducible. [4]

By late summer U.S. as well as British officials were growing uneasy over the trend. Lewis Douglas, deputy administrator for the War Shipping Administration (WSA), visited London in July and he and Averell Harriman, the President's lend-lease representative there, submitted a special report to the President on 2 August, supplementing a more comprehensive one by the two Combined Shipping Adjustment Boards (CSAB) (Washington and London) and warning that substantially greater aid in American shipping would be needed if Britain were to continue its war effort on the current scale. On 6 October the United States, through the CSAB, formally accepted the principle that, as merchant shipbuilder for the United Nations, it would undertake to assign an "appropriate portion" of the residue of tonnage built over tonnage lost in order "to relieve the burden on the war services of each of the other United Nations." Before the end of that month the President decided to expand the merchant shipbuilding program, hitherto held back because of a shortage of steel, to the full capacity of the shipyards. However, the British Government, while reasonably confident that Britain would be the chief foreign beneficiary of this expansion, felt that the clear drift of the national economy toward disaster called for more specific assurance and concrete action. It decided to seek from its ally "a solemn compact, almost a treaty" setting forth the amount of shipping Britain could expect. [5]

In November Sir Oliver Lyttelton, British Minister of Production, came to Washington to negotiate such a settlement, not merely for shipping but for the whole field of munitions as well. Depletion of domestic stocks, he pointed out, had gone so far that imports had little or no margin left for fluctuation; henceforth, the flow must keep pace with consumption. Lyttelton requested the United States to guarantee enough shipping in 1943 to enable Britain to bring her dry cargo imports up to 27 million tons, a figure that would retard, though it would not halt, the depletion of stocks while providing raw materials for an expanded output of munitions. To produce these results would, the British estimated, require the transfer to British service of ship-ping equivalent to 2.5 million deadweight tons in continuous employment throughout the year-an amount considered sufficient to bring in about 7 million tons of imports via the North Atlantic route. [6]

The President's response was prompt and sympathetic. He wrote to Rear Adm. Emory S. Land of the U.S. Maritime Commission:

In all probability the British are going to lose again in 1943 more ships than they can build. If we are going to keep England in the war at anything like this maximum capacity, we must consider the supplementing of their merchant fleet as one of the top military necessities of the war. [7]

Roosevelt's principal civilian advisers concurred; the military, evidently, were not consulted. Replying formally to the Prime Minister on 30 November, Roosevelt noted that the U.S. shipbuilding program was being augmented to at least 18.8 million deadweight tons in 1943, possibly 20 million. [8] He promised that the United States would make available in 1943 (as a loan rather than by transfer of flag, as requested), sufficient shipping to meet Britain's marginal needs for carriage of 27 million tons of imports, along with requirements for military supply and essential war services. Over and above U.S. shipping already in British service, the amount needed had been estimated, the President noted, as "an average of nearly 300,000 tons each month of carrying capacity." [9]


The President's warning of a probable lag in early deliveries was immediately borne out. Shipments in American bottoms during December were hardly more than token in character, and the schedules drawn up by WSA provided for delivery of only 1.8 million tons of imports, soon revised downward to 1.15 million tons, in the first half of 1943. Britain's own shipping position, meanwhile, was deteriorating rapidly. Military demands upon shipping for the forces in North Africa proved far larger than expected, and British shipping suffered heavily-far more so than American-from German submarines during the period of the North African operation. Apart from losses, evasive routing in areas where escorting had to be curtailed or dispensed with lengthened already long voyages and thus in effect reduced the net movement of cargo. During the same period, moreover, Britain was lending her ally ships to move U.S. cargo from the United Kingdom to North Africa-some 682,000 deadweight tons of shipping between October 1942 and mid-April 1943, or more than twice as much as the United States lent to Britain for use on this route. (See Map III, inside back cover.) The impact upon the U.K. import program was devastating. During the last quarter of 1942 imports came in at an annual rate of only about 20 million tons, which was at least 6 million tons less than the total consumption for that year. In January 1943 imports fell to the lowest point, as it proved, of the whole war-less than half the level of January 1941, nearly 42 percent less than in January 1942-and by February the British had to revise downward their estimate of the amount of imports they could expect to carry in their own shipping. Fearing new military demands and uneasy over the lag in American aid, the British Government began to doubt the wisdom of allowing domestic stocks to drop as far below their end-1941 level as it had earlier been willing, in expectation of American aid, to permit. Food stocks had fallen by the end of 1942 to a level that would support wartime consumption for only three or four months, and for certain important items the level was even lower. [11]

In January 1943 the Prime Minister took the drastic step of switching to the Atlantic area import routes 52 of the 92 monthly sailings usually assigned to service the Indian Ocean, in order, as he put it, not to make Britain "live from hand to mouth, absolutely dependent on the fulfillment of American promises in the last six months of the year." This was a bold, even a desperate move. [12] The ships that carried military cargo for British forces all along the route to India also carried food and other basic economic necessities for the civilian populations, while in their cross voyages they contributed to the complex inter-regional trade on which these countries also depended. The removal of so much tonnage endangered the delicate balance between subsistence and famine in the whole Indian Ocean area, particularly in India itself, and in fact contributed to the outbreak of famine in Bengal later in the year. On their return trips, moreover, the same ships performed other vital services-carrying coal, for example, from South Africa to the Argentine, and picking up bauxite cargoes in British Guiana. [13] (See Map I, inside back cover.) British officials emphasized that the switch of shipping was aimed at retarding depletion of domestic stocks, not building them up, and that it would not justify a reduction in American aid. While they expected the switch to produce a net gain of about 1.7 million tons of imports during 1943, there would still be a requirement for 7.6 million tons to be carried in American bottoms. The U.S. economic mission in London not only agreed with this position but also urged that the American shipping contribution during the first six months of 1943 should be raised to a level sufficient to bring in three million tons of imports, in order to keep within


Meanwhile, faced by an alarming lag in the flow of British imports, WSA officials were drawing up new schedules greatly increasing the amount of U.S. shipping to be diverted to British use during the critical first half of the year. [26]

Early in March Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden was sent to Washington to take up the problem directly with the President. He brought with him a strongly worded note from the Prime Minister:

Our tonnage constantly dwindles, the American increases.... We have undertaken arduous and essential operations encouraged by the belief that we could rely on American shipbuilding to see us through. But we must know where we stand. We cannot live from hand to mouth on promises limited by provisos. This not only prevents planning and makes the use of ships less economical; it may in the long run even imperil good relations. Unless we can get a satisfactory long-term settlement, British ships will have to be withdrawn from their present military service even though our agreed operations are crippled or prejudiced. [28]

The reaction of the Washington staffs to this demand was violent. If 7 million tons of imports must be carried, the Army's deployment would have to be cut by 225,000 men; a loan of shipping to support British forces in the Mediterranean and India would mean a further cut of 375,000 men. Taken together, the British proposals threatened to reduce a potential U.S. deployment of over 1.5 million troops to about 800,000. Moreover, the cut would be made primarily during the critical spring months, when shipping would be at its tightest and when, according to current plans, the battle of Tunisia was to reach its climax, preparations for HUSKY were to be completed, and the build-up of air forces in Britain was to hit full stride. During these months, if British demands were met in full, the movement of U.S. forces would virtually cease. [30] And what if the aid were refused?

With U-boats sinking ships at the rate of more than four a day and only a handful of subs sunk to show for this slaughter, the U.S. Chiefs of Staff fully shared Dill's sense of urgency. [34] The Joint Strategic Survey Committee was advising them to review and reorient the t whole strategic program outlined at Casablanca, since it was obvious that the planners at that time had "overestimated prospective resources, particularly shipping, and underestimated the demands on them." [35] A viable strategy, thought the committee, must first of all recognize the irreducible claims of such basic commitments as antisubmarine operations, support of forces overseas, and maintenance of the war economies, and tailor military operations to what could be carried out with residual resources, especially shipping, not absorbed by the basic commitments.

On 29 March Hopkins, Douglas, and Eden met with the President at the White House. No military representatives were present and Douglas, with occasional promptings from Hopkins, held the floor. He presented two main arguments-that the British import program must be sustained, and that this, despite the warnings of the military chiefs, could in fact be done without crippling the Casablanca strategic program. Douglas explained that the current rate of importation would bring only 16 million tons to the United Kingdom by the end of the year, and that even if U.S. commitments were met in full, the decline in British carrying capacity would result in a year's total almost 2 million tons less than the 27 million tons on which the two governments had agreed in November. The program, he argued, was an "essential part of the productive processes" of the United Nations, and any serious shortfall "would at last come back to us" in the form of a weakening of the total Allied war effort. Further, Douglas stressed the dangers, inherent in the Army's proposed allocations, of accumulating a deficit in the spring and summer that might be too heavy to handle in the autumn and winter. [43]

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Post #: 238
- 7/31/2003 7:44:33 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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To those who have actually read the above information (whew - sorry about unloading that on you - hehe).

But it points out several things:

1) That Blair's thesis of the U-boat peril being over-blown does not hold water.

2) It took the Allies 4 years (by mid-1943) before they were able to launch an effective attack to hold back the U-boats as well as to build sufficient ships.

Even then there was much arguing among US and British Gov'ts as well as inter-Gov't wrangling (in the US) because these ships were barely able to meet all the requirements of all theatres (such as Britain, the Atlantic convoys, the Pacific, transporting supplies, troops, etc etc).

3) Before mid-1943, Britain suffered an import shortfall during almost every year previous to this except in 1939 (4 months) and in 1941 (4 months). These were surplus months because of lowered U-boat activity.

4) The fact that sufficient shipping was available was due to other nations' shipping and shipbuilding by the US. But even so, the U-boat peril was still a crisis until mid-1943, as attested to by officials in the US and British Gov'ts as well as being supported by the data. Stopping the U-boat peril required an enormous amount of time, effort and resources as well as costing thousands of ships and tens of thousands of lives.

5) The fact that the Allies had 4 years in which to meet their shipping needs and defeat the U-boat peril is due to:

a) Germany's failure to build more U-boats sooner, and in larger numbers;

b) Germany's failure to seize ALL Allied soldiers at Dunkirk, and its failure to take North Africa, and then plan for the invasion of Britain, rather than turning east.

c) America's entry into the war.

On the face of the evidence, it is hard to support Blair's thesis that the U-boat did not represent a on-going peril. Further, the U-boat threat was not overblown, as Blair claims.

Britain faced a very real crisis in 1939-Dec/1942.

This is fun :)

Cheers!

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Post #: 239
Battle of Atlantic - 7/31/2003 10:33:27 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, I don't think a crisis can go on for over 30 months.
I think it would be more in the realm of a severe handicap.

Like the Union blockade of the South. It limits your freedom of action but does not prevent your waging war.

I've been thinking about this, I think the real effect of more U-boats would have been felt in the Pacific. Ships used there would have been transferred as required and the operations curtailed.
(I think they would have stuck to Germany first)
Also after further review I don't think the main weight of any number of U-boats could (or was) be applied till after Germany outflanks the British blockade by acquiring the bases in Norway and France (this is when the &%*$ really hit the fan)

At the outset the U-boats would have been chasing a lot of single ships that were not engaged in war related shipping. Then after the ships they miss (or that begin in port) are switched to war duty they would be in convoy. I don't think you'd see single ships like you did in the actual event if a vast number were attacked early. Also more bombers would be assigned to ASW patrol.

Of course this by no means says that the period from June 1940 till Dec 42 would not be terrible for Allied merchants.

Also during the months where your data indicates Britain had shortage in supply arrival you find they are engaged in major operations in other theaters. (Could the shipping have been otherwise occupied?)

North Africa sees the first British offensive then the battles for Greece. Once these are over the British get their required amounts (after a bit of time for the shipping to go back to work)

(Or perhaps it is just all the stray shipping from countries Germany over ran finally returning from their first convoys)

But then again the 1942 totals could reflect commitments going to the Pacific. (The British seem to show they can go below their minimum requirements often and for prolonged periods)

How large was this stockpile that dropped by 2.5mt?

We already knew they needed 43mt per year I was not able to find numbers on what they actually received.

I've never subscribed to the U-boats not being a major threat. I've also never subscribed that any action short of occupation would make Britain surrender. (I don't think they would ever surrender. They would fight on from Canada or Australia or where ever they happened to be when the Germans occupied England.
I don't think it would be good duty for Germans.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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