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RE: East First breaks the game

 
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RE: East First breaks the game - 3/25/2020 1:00:01 AM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		I think, and ultimately, we need to consider how the game should and foremost, be presented regarding historical accuracy in terms of opening move choices in the context of balance. Should the game try to balance the opening game, essentially like a chess game, which still has an advantage to the first moving player, aka, the White side, or present both sides with essentially balanced gambits (which chess has), depending on the relative abilities of both players (and this is what needs to be determined), or allow opponents to react and adapt with the best response they can mount to counter these risky gambits.

More play testing and opinions will help.

Full disclosure:

I became interested in this strategy when it first came to my attention watching (a while ago) a few YouTube videos exploring an East First strategy. I'm sorry and apologize to the YouTuber(s) who fist posted this, but I just can't remember who it was to post a link here.

After reading this thread, I thought I would help by trying it out on a good friend of mine (who has given me much enjoyment as a PBEM opponent in SC-WaW), with the idea that he is a very capable opponent and would therefore be quite capable in countering this gambit. I thought this might be helpful, while still and maybe, giving me an opportunity to get revenge for being soundly defeated by said opponent in our past games.


C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 31
RE: East First breaks the game - 3/25/2020 11:27:02 PM   
Chernobyl

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 8/27/2012
Status: offline 		To me the main factor seems to be that because the central powers move first, they can position troops and garrisons to prevent the russian cavalry from taking any towns, while the central powers can take brest-litovsk and cut rail lines before the russians can move at all. Yes the russians can threaten to take towns on turn #2 but in my opinion it doesn't work very well. Depending on what exactly they do, the germans can surround their units before they take a town, and worst case scenario you just rail in a couple defensive units. Just don't let them ever take a supply city/fort. Turn #1 the central powers MUST prevent the russian cavalry near Lodz from charging in to take Bromberg Thorn or Posen and this requires a few units. You can't just leave that area totally wide open and expect to win.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 3/25/2020 11:30:28 PM >

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 32
RE: East First breaks the game - 3/26/2020 5:21:12 AM   
lwarmonger

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 8/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

quote:


+1. The East Front in WWI wasn't that empty, and the Russian superiority in numbers isn't really represented in the game (their weakness is fully represented though).


It is worth keeping in mind that World War I was not World War II. The Russians were always constrained by what their industry could support, and the fact that they didnt have mass conscript armies providing at least partly trained units on mobilization. The Russian Army was actually about the same size as the German, and never really got much bigger then the German Army did (the Germans were split between two fronts... however the Austrians provided substantial forces as well).

I think the unit sizes are about right... but garrisons on both sides would mitigate some of these raiding strategies which can seem very gamey if an opponent doesnt do a good job countering.

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 33
RE: East First breaks the game - 3/26/2020 6:36:37 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Maybe a Russian detachment in Bialystok and one in Brest-Litvosk would be enough for the Russians.

Not sure what could be done for the Germans, but giving them also at least two more detachments, would seem reasonable.

C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to lwarmonger)
Post #: 34
RE: East First breaks the game - 3/28/2020 3:19:15 PM   
Mercutio

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 12/26/2006
Status: offline 		It was quite the shock to loose an important NM objective before I could even start my turn! However this is my first PBEM for WWI. So we will see, but interested in others opinions.

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 35
RE: East First breaks the game - 3/30/2020 10:12:03 PM   
eightroomofelixir

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 11/17/2019
Status: offline 		Thank you for the clarification. I was thinking about the AI scripts that gives Germany a huge number of land units (they can reach 100 or 101 in 1915 when playing as Entente, nearly twice the size of the Russian Army). This problem doe not exist when facing a human player, as this thread is about NM grabbing problem in the PBEM.

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(in reply to lwarmonger)
Post #: 36
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/1/2020 1:09:56 PM   
Benedict151

 

Posts: 596
Joined: 3/4/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger
That being said, from a game design perspective,a fairly easy and realistic way to deal with this is to simply have garrisons start in the national morale forts behind the lines in Germany and Russia. It isnt like these fortresses were empty in real life, and the garrisons have negligible combat power, so they shouldnt change the balance.


+1. The East Front in WWI wasn't that empty, and the Russian superiority in numbers isn't really represented in the game (their weakness is fully represented though).


Another +1 for trying this (before more drastic surgery is contemplated)

regards
Ben

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 37
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/14/2020 11:42:17 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline 		Did East First in SP and it was quite simple to hold French/Brits in West until Soviets were out. Curious how this would work for MP - what is the best Entende strategy to counter this?

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 38
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/15/2020 7:14:39 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		I'm currently playing this out in MP as the CP, and from the way it is going so far, I would not call it an automatic slam dunk. The Russians have a lot of forces to contend with...but if I had to play this out as the Entente, I would say that France and Britain, if they choose to not DOW against Belgium and possibly even the Netherlands to open up the front, would probably need to be more aggressive in other theatres, like helping the Italians and even the Serbians. They could also be more aggressive against the Ottomans in the Middle East...

C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)
Post #: 39
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/23/2020 7:01:03 PM   
CommandoDude

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/21/2020
Status: offline 		Russia absolutely needs detachments on the cities near its borders. In fact I think a lot of places should have low strength detachments, for instance a huge amount of italian and turkish seaports have no units on them and could be taken easy peasy through naval landings.

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 40
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/26/2020 7:24:02 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

I'm currently playing this out in MP as the CP, and from the way it is going so far, I would not call it an automatic slam dunk. The Russians have a lot of forces to contend with...but if I had to play this out as the Entente, I would say that France and Britain, if they choose to not DOW against Belgium and possibly even the Netherlands to open up the front, would probably need to be more aggressive in other theatres, like helping the Italians and even the Serbians. They could also be more aggressive against the Ottomans in the Middle East...

C


Same here. Have captured a Warsaw and a few Russian towns but Entente very much alive and well. They took Belgium and are pushing back in Serbia.

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 41
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/27/2020 5:54:18 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		My AH forces were hit pretty hard with heavy losses so I decided to gamble by letting Italy have the AH territory they demanded to not have to deal with them. I remembered in playing my first game as the CP against the Entente AI, that Italy can be quite a pain to AH when they join the war...so I took the chance. I knew this would result in a big NM hit for AH, but what I wasn't prepared for, was how big the hit actually was! AH NM went from 80 something% (I can't remember exactly how much) down to 55%!

This made all my AH forces easy targets for being beaten up, which my astute opponent is not letting me get away with it. After a few more turns and a disastrous AH versus French and UK ships naval engagement in the Adriatic, AH NM is now at 45% and it is only June 19, 1915! Russia is still holding out but at 59% NM...

C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)
Post #: 42
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/28/2020 7:28:01 AM   
lwarmonger

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 8/17/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah... ceding territory to the Italians is really just a bad choice unless the Austrian army has been almost entirely destroyed (then the national morale hit on combat power doesn't matter... because there is no more Austrian army to weaken).

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 43
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/28/2020 4:27:20 PM   
eightroomofelixir

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 11/17/2019
Status: offline 		Austrians giving Trento-Trieste to Italy will result in a 8000 point lost in morale - about 25% for the A-H morale pool.

Compare: Even if losing all the NM towns in Galicia, A-H's morale lost is 3100, about 10%; and A-H can spend 50 MPPs to raise the morale by 2000 points when Russians are close to Przemyśl.

Maintain A-H's morale will be a priority for CP players, similar to Russians for Entente players.

_____________________________

No conquest without labor.

(in reply to lwarmonger)
Post #: 44
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/29/2020 3:22:31 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

Yeah... ceding territory to the Italians is really just a bad choice unless the Austrian army has been almost entirely destroyed (then the national morale hit on combat power doesn't matter... because there is no more Austrian army to weaken).

My AH army was mauled but not badly destroyed...so I thought what I had left could survive the NM hit long enough for Russia to be knocked out. Boy was I wrong! Won't be doing that again! Russian NM is at 59%...so I may still have a slim chance...but France will soon be pounding the Germans in the West, so it is a real nail biter.

quote:

Austrians giving Trento-Trieste to Italy will result in a 8000 point lost in morale - about 25% for the A-H morale pool.

Compare: Even if losing all the NM towns in Galicia, A-H's morale lost is 3100, about 10%; and A-H can spend 50 MPPs to raise the morale by 2000 points when Russians are close to Przemyœl.

Maintain A-H's morale will be a priority for CP players, similar to Russians for Entente players.

I wish I re-read the Strategy guide before I made that very bad decision! I read it awhile ago and just didn't remember how bad it could be. Also, it says that AH NM will drop by 10000. It seems like a no brainer to at least still put up a fight against Italy...especially since Romania also swings to the Entente by 40%!

C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 45
RE: East First breaks the game - 4/29/2020 6:42:32 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks Christolos, you are right about the Strategy Guide. I've made a note to get that corrected.

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Post #: 46
RE: East First breaks the game - 5/2/2020 8:26:37 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

Austrians giving Trento-Trieste to Italy will result in a 8000 point lost in morale - about 25% for the A-H morale pool.

Compare: Even if losing all the NM towns in Galicia, A-H's morale lost is 3100, about 10%; and A-H can spend 50 MPPs to raise the morale by 2000 points when Russians are close to Przemyśl.

Maintain A-H's morale will be a priority for CP players, similar to Russians for Entente players.


Made this mistake in first MP round. Worked fine for SP but not sure it seems like really bad idea for MP.

(in reply to eightroomofelixir)
Post #: 47
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