RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/12/2020 5:37:30 PM

ezzler

Posts: 863
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules

I have hearts of iron 4
Stellaris
Aurora
WIF
WITP

AND

CMO

And play none of them. For the reason you said.
I can't remember the interface. i don't want to play the hour tutorial each time to remind myself what to do.

On the downside, i just bought the American civil war game,Victory and Glory.
pretty simple. No real hard rules. A light wargame. But decent enough.
I've beaten it as the Union, on top level, In only ten hours. The abstract nature makes it quite easy to win.

(in reply to IslandInland)

Post #: 31

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 12:12:34 AM

BeirutDude

Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline

But a lot have found their way into the various versions of TOAW as scenarios. Not going to say some old SPI games didn't do that (Oil War for example)

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/15/2020 12:15:42 PM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 32

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 11:49:29 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

But a lot have found there way into the various versions of TOAW as scenarios

Back to your original question, is TOAW too complicated for you?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 33

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 12:11:25 PM

BeirutDude

Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline

I Hope not considering the number of scenarios I designed for TOAW I, TOAW II, TOAW III and the Wargame of the Year Versions. I get on TOAW IV every once in a while but, I was disappointed by the new version and its lack of a modern (post 2005) database or I would be designing scenarios for it rather than CMO.

The issue I see is two fold...

1. The complication of games causes us to become devotees/subject matter experts in one game and doesn't allow one to easily cross over to another game and play it.
2. In that environment does it make sense to buy more games?

The "Easter Special" I passed up on
Warplan
Battlestar Galactica (SP?)
Close Combat, Bloody First
Distant Worlds

All of which in the past I might have bought (along with three Tiller titles). I bought Tiller's Japan '45 (the Olympic Game) but don't play it because all my time is consumed designing for CMO. So I didn't buy the most recent Japan game, not because I don't understand the system, I do (I have designed scenarios for those games as well). I don't have the time for it so why spend the money????

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/15/2020 12:16:47 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 34

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 12:28:45 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I�m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn�t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 35

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 12:47:15 PM

demyansk

Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

quote:

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules

I have hearts of iron 4
Stellaris
Aurora
WIF
WITP

AND

CMO

And play none of them. For the reason you said.
I can't remember the interface. i don't want to play the hour tutorial each time to remind myself what to do.

On the downside, i just bought the American civil war game,Victory and Glory.
pretty simple. No real hard rules. A light wargame. But decent enough.
I've beaten it as the Union, on top level, In only ten hours. The abstract nature makes it quite easy to win.

I agree

(in reply to ezzler)

Post #: 36

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 6:02:11 PM

BeirutDude

Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

_____________________________

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 37

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 7:04:33 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

Unfortunately modern AT methods are accurate at far longer ranges than even 2.5 kilometers. There is no direct fire at that range.

_____________________________

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 38

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/15/2020 9:39:57 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

Would be great indeed for TOAW to better simulate modern equipments. It has always been very focused on WW2.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 39

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 11:30:18 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
And check out Tabletop Simulator. It might have something you're looking for.

Tabletop Simulator does not provide for an AI computer opponent, so it's just a fancier VASSAL system for playing on a virtual gameboard. Not exactly a PC wargame.

Perchance to dream. Maybe someday a developer will create a wargame design kit for players to create/modify their own games/scenarios. Basic hex maps, terrain effects charts, combat results tables, force pools, various selectable game rules/phases/etc. Start simple, then continue to improve to provide more options and complexity. I doubt we will see such thing, but it sure would be nice.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 40

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 11:42:17 AM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

The elimination of hexes would be nice. Something where distance is determined as in the real world instead.

_____________________________

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 41

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 12:13:30 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

The elimination of hexes would be nice. Something where distance is determined as in the real world instead.

Any idea how to represent units counters? Small flags?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 42

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 12:22:34 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Same as in Command Ops 2.

_____________________________

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 43

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 6:42:58 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I bought Tiller's Japan '45 (the Olympic Game) but don't play it because all my time is consumed designing for CMO. So I didn't buy the most recent Japan game, not because I don't understand the system, I do (I have designed scenarios for those games as well). I don't have the time for it so why spend the money????

This argument could be used for SPWAW: It's a free game with tons of campaigns, scenarios, and mods with editors to do more. And it isn't like it's only free game out there. So why spend money on any game at all?

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 44

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 6:47:24 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Perchance to dream. Maybe someday a developer will create a wargame design kit for players to create/modify their own games/scenarios.

Have you tried this one already?

[edit]
Store search didn't find the game. I found the page by checking URL syntax for other game pages, then typed it in, and hit on the target.

< Message edited by Kuokkanen -- 4/16/2020 6:49:17 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 45

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 6:51:34 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Perchance to dream. Maybe someday a developer will create a wargame design kit for players to create/modify their own games/scenarios.

Have you tried this one already?

[edit]
Store search didn't find the game. I found the page by checking URL syntax for other game pages, then typed it in, and hit on the target.

Alas, the download links are no more valid in order to try it.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 46

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 6:53:39 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Same as in Command Ops 2.

I never tried it. Is it complex to play?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 47

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 9:52:22 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Same as in Command Ops 2.

I never tried it. Is it complex to play?

The base game is free. In my opinion it's not difficult to pick up the basics.

_____________________________

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 48

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/16/2020 11:05:10 PM

Hellen_slith

Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

Chiming in here, only to spur additional discussion.

Background: not a denialer, only a long time player of many East Front / Barbarossa type games
(currently mostly focused on TOAWIV scenes of that type)

In grad school, I took a course title "Literature of the Holocaust" 4059 (taught by a survivor)

A haunting class, that was 20+ years ago, BUT ...
it is a somewhat troublesome aspect to find now,
in ALL scenes that I have seen (re East Front)

an almost "void" w/re/to Einsatz.

There are some games / scenes that take this into account,
but mostly, I have found just that "void" w/re/to to German Einsatz.

There are a few scenes that do,
but over all, it is an area that seems to be verboten.

Don't get me wrong, but deep down, I have lately gotten the feel that,
w/o at least a heads up to what really happened,
many of the these scenes don't take into account the actual historical record.

Sometimes I wonder, if the Germans / Axis did not do what they did,
that they might have won in the end.

Something to think about. I haven't seen any studies along that line,
if you know of any, would appreciate the links or the references.

Have a great day!

(in reply to ezzler)

Post #: 49

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 1:42:27 AM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

an almost "void" w/re/to Einsatz.

Their duties involved rear area activities and some types of police units were sometimes attached to a security division. Even when attached to a security division they were not part of offensive operations unless it would be against cut off Soviet personnel. Later in 1941 they ended up facing Soviet regulars simply because the war came to them.

It isn't difficult to see how these German units would be used. All you have to do is look at a TOAW AAR like FitE2. There they are treated as Stormtroopers because of their high mobility. They range far ahead of the German infantry in a totally unreal manner that never would have happened historically. Why they are even in the game is beyond me. I was given a complete BS excuse that because they had motorcycles the German army used them this way. Never happened. It's best they are left out of the game entirely.

_____________________________

(in reply to Hellen_slith)

Post #: 50

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 3:07:15 AM

kangaroos_are_cool

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/30/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

Absolutely.

...

For my entertainment value, WITP:AE has cost me fractions of a penny for each gaming hour spent. How could anything else compete?

I really relate to this. I would say the complexity has had the opposite effect for me - I can't really enjoy the simpler games that I used to enjoy

once you've invested the time and figured out the workings of a complicated wargame, you can only focus on what's missing when it comes to more superficial outings (for reference I used to play HoI IV constantly, then had someone recommend WitE and haven't launched HoI IV since)

The learning curve is surely challenging for many of these games, but once you get past it you have this incredibly rich gaming experience that lasts you years. The big ones I've sunk a lot of time into are WitE, CMO, and Bombing the Reich, and I'm 300+ hours on each of them and just as captivated as when I began, and that's having only finished 25-30% of the scenarios for each game!! This isn't even counting the hours I've surely wasted going through the weapons databases, reading wikipedia articles about some airplane I found in the game that I didn't know about, etc.

It's surely not everyone's cup of tea, but I've found tackling the big guys immensely rewarding, and I'm extremely grateful that at least someone is creating games like this

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 51

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 11:43:10 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
Have you tried this one already?

The War Engine was a good idea along the right lines toward a Wargame Design Kit. But it needed a hexagon map. And other enhancements.

If/when we get such a thing to be able to create Afrika Korps or Russian Campaign and other classic boardgames, then that would be great. We're not there yet...

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 52

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 11:45:46 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
Have you tried this one already?

The War Engine was a good idea along the right lines toward a Wargame Design Kit. But it needed a hexagon map. And other enhancements.

If/when we get such a thing to be able to create Afrika Korps or Russian Campaign and other classic boardgames, then that would be great. We're not there yet...

Where can one download it to try? Seems the links are no longer working.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 53

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 12:47:07 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

Found this 2001 download option.

https://www.old-games.com/download/6774/war-engine-the

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 54

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 4:52:20 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Found this 2001 download option.

https://www.old-games.com/download/6774/war-engine-the

Thanks MrsWargamer, not a free download but thanks.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 55

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 6:48:11 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Found this 2001 download option.

https://www.old-games.com/download/6774/war-engine-the

Thanks MrsWargamer, not a free download but thanks.

Looks & sounds like a scam. Hasn't anyone thrown C&D at them yet?

_____________________________

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 56

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/17/2020 7:43:46 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Found this 2001 download option.

https://www.old-games.com/download/6774/war-engine-the

Thanks MrsWargamer, not a free download but thanks.

Looks & sounds like a scam. Hasn't anyone thrown C&D at them yet?

Nevermind, the Matrix link is broken in their website but the executable are still there:
http://ftp.matrixgames.com/pub/TheWarEngine/

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 57

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/18/2020 3:43:38 AM

Pvt_Grunt

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/13/2007
From: Frankston Victoria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Same as in Command Ops 2.

An excellent game

_____________________________

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 58

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/18/2020 2:29:09 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
The War Engine was a good idea along the right lines toward a Wargame Design Kit. But it needed a hexagon map. And other enhancements.

Agreed; and it's been a long time so maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but while the Matrix site says that it was "released" in 2008, I think that's when the free version was released, and the actual game dates from the late nineties. Very dated.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 59

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/19/2020 7:39:46 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Same as in Command Ops 2.

An excellent game

I just installed the base game and I am trying to understand the basics. I think I should read the manual...

In all their volumes, it is very oriented Western front in 1944. With the exception of Greece, I see nothing on the Eastern front. Do you know if this is planned? Maybe i should open another thread.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Pvt_Grunt)

Post #: 60