RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/19/2020 10:17:50 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Same as in Command Ops 2.

An excellent game

I just installed the base game and I am trying to understand the basics. I think I should read the manual...

In all their volumes, it is very oriented Western front in 1944. With the exception of Greece, I see nothing on the Eastern front. Do you know if this is planned? Maybe i should open another thread.

No self respecting human male would read a manual.

There is a tutorial and as far as I know you can make an East Front scenario on your own.

Forgot, lots of scenarios in the Steam Workshop.

Oh look, a map maker.

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< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/19/2020 10:30:03 PM >

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Post #: 61

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/21/2020 4:27:49 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

There is a tutorial and as far as I know you can make an East Front scenario on your own.

I was asking for an official module of their own.

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Post #: 62

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/21/2020 4:55:13 PM

ncc1701e

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And actually there is one:

Our first Eastern Front DLC pack to be released in 2019
https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/521800/old_view/1726470729205544610

[DevBlog] Direct firing gun accuracy for Eastern Front DLCs
https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/521800/old_view/3538044699698533092

[DevBlog] Weapons and Vehicles of Khalkhin-Gol DLC
https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/521800/old_view/1786146242189023840

[DevBlog] Uncle Joe's Cavalry on Wheels
https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/521800/old_view/1590253607861194748

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Post #: 63

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/23/2020 6:59:33 PM

Hellen_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

an almost "void" w/re/to Einsatz.

Their duties involved rear area activities and some types of police units were sometimes attached to a security division. Even when attached to a security division they were not part of offensive operations unless it would be against cut off Soviet personnel. Later in 1941 they ended up facing Soviet regulars simply because the war came to them.

It isn't difficult to see how these German units would be used. All you have to do is look at a TOAW AAR like FitE2. There they are treated as Stormtroopers because of their high mobility. They range far ahead of the German infantry in a totally unreal manner that never would have happened historically. Why they are even in the game is beyond me. I was given a complete BS excuse that because they had motorcycles the German army used them this way. Never happened. It's best they are left out of the game entirely.

Thanks for your response, same feel here--in our current "club" effort w/ TOAWIV:FitE2 (partisans=ON) our "Einsatz" commander is limited in his usage of Polizei / UAP / "Einsatz" units. Were he not hamstrung (by our house rules) those units might make a big difference in the front, as was shown by The Colonel who used them to wreck Soviet RR.

Completely ahistorical usage, but that is the nature of the game--

Thanks again for your response.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 64

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/24/2020 11:23:25 PM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

All,

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Just something I've been thinking about. I have one game I play regularly "CMO" that is soooooooo complicated that it consumes all of my playing time and I'm still learning it. Cool! BUT...

The following games sit on my Hard Drive never played because I don't have time to get into the details and nuances of them

WiTP: Admiral's Edition
Armored Brigade (all addons)
SC War in Europe & World at War
GG:WitE (all Addons)
GG:WiTW (all addons)

So with that much money invested (and that's not even including the Tiller games). I have STOPPED BUYING GAMES! Matrix or Tiller.

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules. I started up Armored Brigade last night to "do something different than CMO," and after 20 minutes I became frustrated and gave up because I had forgotten to much about the game interface.

So just got the 30% off coupon for Easter, and there are about three Matrix games (and three Tiller games) I have an interest in, but is it worth it to buy more games, that I won't have the time to learn????

Am I alone here?

You say War in the East is too complicated and Panzer Corps is too simplistic. Perhaps a good middle ground would be Advanced Tactics Gold. Maybe try looking into some YouTube videos of it to see if that would be a game you would like. :)

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Post #: 65

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/25/2020 3:52:19 AM

Rosseau

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BeirutDude,

First a thank-you for your service to our country.

Regarding your list, I might give Armored Brigade another look. It looks messy at times, but is nothing like the micro and time required in the other games you have listed. Also, there are many options to tailor the game size.

I am not a AB fanboy, but just saying...

Best wishes,

Mike

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 66

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/1/2020 5:18:06 PM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

All,

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Just something I've been thinking about. I have one game I play regularly "CMO" that is soooooooo complicated that it consumes all of my playing time and I'm still learning it. Cool! BUT...

The following games sit on my Hard Drive never played because I don't have time to get into the details and nuances of them

WiTP: Admiral's Edition
Armored Brigade (all addons)
SC War in Europe & World at War
GG:WitE (all Addons)
GG:WiTW (all addons)

So with that much money invested (and that's not even including the Tiller games). I have STOPPED BUYING GAMES! Matrix or Tiller.

Sounds like you were basically acting as a sponsor for game developers, not buying stuff you actually play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

So with that much money invested (and that's not even including the Tiller games). I have STOPPED BUYING GAMES! Matrix or Tiller.

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules. I started up Armored Brigade last night to "do something different than CMO," and after 20 minutes I became frustrated and gave up because I had forgotten to much about the game interface.

I have 405 hours on Armored Brigade ever since it came out on steam. I don't really remember learning it because I started out with freeware version in 2008. The interface is fairly simple. It's just a question of memorising what menu has what. IMO exact rules aren't worth bothering with in the beginning. It's easy to learn the game bit by bit.
For example in the first scenario you don't have to bother with deployment, artillery fires and air support. Only on-map mortar units.

I think buying big games is pretty much pointless if one doesn't play them unless one considers oneself a sort of an arts patron or something. They are pretty much intended to provide you huge amount of playtime in one game.
How long is WitE campaign? Like, that game looks like it would take hours to do one turn, let alone finish it. Learning it looks like something banal in comparison to actually playing it.

I don't think complexity is a problem. I like complex games. I'm more on the side of them not being complex enough. In my experience, with games that I play, developers reach their programming skill limits much faster than I reach my game learning limit and I have some serious learning issues.

But to a point. My huge problem with complexity in wargames is lack of subordinate AI. Why should I have to handle company mortar fires if I'm a regimental commander? Why should I have to oversee movement of every single squad during urban combat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

I barely play games nowadays. Looking at my Steam stats, almost all my play time is in ArmA Cold War Crisis (90 hours), Butcher (150 hours) and Armored Brigade (405 hours).
Take into account that I mostly mod and play my own scenarios in Armored Brigade.

When it comes to wargames, almost all I played during last several years was Armored Brigade, Command Ops and Epic: Final Liberation.

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Post #: 67

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/1/2020 6:23:54 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

But to a point. My huge problem with complexity in wargames is lack of subordinate AI. Why should I have to handle company mortar fires if I'm a regimental commander? Why should I have to oversee movement of every single squad during urban combat?

There should be few games where player can assign units for AI to handle. I remember reading TOAW3 is one such game, though I haven't experimented with it myself. And you already mentioned Command Ops, though I haven't played that one at all.

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Post #: 68

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 3:10:12 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

But to a point. My huge problem with complexity in wargames is lack of subordinate AI. Why should I have to handle company mortar fires if I'm a regimental commander? Why should I have to oversee movement of every single squad during urban combat?

There should be few games where player can assign units for AI to handle. I remember reading TOAW3 is one such game, though I haven't experimented with it myself. And you already mentioned Command Ops, though I haven't played that one at all.

I play command Ops 2 all the time. It has a healthy learning curve but you can play regimental commander fairly well. You would give your 3 battalions orders and they carry them out, including the artillery/mortars. Not a perfect system but definitely a good wargame.

Yeah, I just figured out how to run it on Linux. It's a quite relief from the gruelling micromanagement of Armored Brigade.

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Post #: 69

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 9:31:10 AM

Simulacra53

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I was surprised to find Strategic Command titles in the OP�s list.
The series and the games mentioned have some depth, but are pretty straightforward to jump into and start playing.
You may not find a winning strategy with your first, second or even umpteenth time, but the the gameplay and GUI are conductive enough to claim easy to play, with depth to master.

My game on that list is War in the Pacific, each time I look at it I find it super fascinating, but I don�t play it.
CMO is another game on that list.

But here�s my point.
A complex wargame / simulation does not have to be difficult to play.
IMO most complexity comes from the (poor) GUI and workflow (design).

You can create a complex game that layers its difficulty by good design and delegation.
Micromanagement however, layers upon layers of menus and commands can turn a wargame into a �configuration simulator� instead of a game.
That�s to close to what I do for a living...

Also on a personal note I am a if it looks good it must fly good kinda guy, I don�t want to know all the aerodynamic equations that make it fly.
I always admire wargamers who calculate their battles before and after.
18+3+6x2/4-9-2=...

You have lost me - I don�t care.
That does not mean I only like Panzer General clones, which I do.

I like John Tiller PB, PC & FWWC series, but I just move units and look at command and relative strength, I look at the terrain if I have that luxury, but more than that, I just look at the big number odds. I do not look for special game rules etc. I never liked board based wargames, too much head crunching. That�s why I still have a soft spot for Call of Duty and its more refined brethren (Post Scriptum, Hell let loose & Rising Storm - love RS2 Vietnam = these are wargames in a sense as they require strategy and cooperation to win battles).

To me it is just unbelievable that after decades no serious wargame developer has recreated Steel Panthers in a high res version.
I mean that game series just ticked. Simple and intuitive to play, plenty of tactical depth. What Matrix did for Panzer General with Panzer Corp, Order of Battle and now Panzer Corps 2, it should have done with a �Steel Panthers� game - call it Steel Tigers and role with it.

WitE/WitW
It is not the complexity, it is the commitment :)

Well if anyone is still reading this inconsistent drivel.
Honorable mention for the Decisive Campaign series that has depth without complexity.
...and now I mention it, like Strategic Command, it was depth without complexity that�s a driving force being WarPlan.

Corona lockdown brain farts.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 3:12:18 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53
To me it is just unbelievable that after decades no serious wargame developer has recreated Steel Panthers in a high res version...call it Steel Tigers and role with it.

Um, if you're not kidding I have great news for you:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4465664&mpage=1&key=steel%2Ctigers

But you're gonna have to wait awhile yet...

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Post #: 71

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 5:44:19 PM

ncc1701e

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What!? Steel Tigers

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 72

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 7:46:25 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

To me it is just unbelievable that after decades no serious wargame developer has recreated Steel Panthers in a high res version.

They have

quote:

♦ Higher resolutions! Play at up to 1600x1200, in either full screen or windowed and widescreen support with "Desktop" mode that , when set, automatically adjusts the game to fit your computer's current resolution.

Sounds like the game can go up to 4K (3840*2160) resolution.

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Post #: 73

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 9:14:28 PM

Simulacra53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53
To me it is just unbelievable that after decades no serious wargame developer has recreated Steel Panthers in a high res version...call it Steel Tigers and role with it.

Um, if you're not kidding I have great news for you:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4465664&mpage=1&key=steel%2Ctigers

But you're gonna have to wait awhile yet...

Nah, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the Steel Tigers bit,

...but I am not impressed nor optimistic about that project, years behind the curve.

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Post #: 74

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/2/2020 9:47:47 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53
Nah, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the Steel Tigers bit...

heh, I thought it very odd if you hadn't heard about it, but wasn't quite sure.

Honestly I think it is premature to determine if you're impressed with it or not, since there is absolutely no info about features, etc., and I'm pretty sure it will happen eventually, although I don't expect it for five or more years at this point.

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Post #: 75

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/3/2020 9:43:56 AM

Simulacra53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53
Nah, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the Steel Tigers bit...

heh, I thought it very odd if you hadn't heard about it, but wasn't quite sure.

Honestly I think it is premature to determine if you're impressed with it or not, since there is absolutely no info about features, etc., and I'm pretty sure it will happen eventually, although I don't expect it for five or more years at this point.

That�s why I am not impressed nor optimistic.

My main point being that I am amazed that there hasn�t been such a game (not counting the trice rewarmed stuff).

For the number of wargames that are produced yearly, much of it rehash, a lot is so so small studio stuff, with a splash of bigger titles, it is hard for me to understand that not a single studio has been able to produce a real up to date Steel Panthers clone like they have been producing up to date Panzer General clones. So why should I be impressed or optimistic about some undisclosed project that might not be released for half a decade or more? Call me skeptical.

But I digress, like my earlier OP rambling.

< Message edited by Simulacra53 -- 5/3/2020 9:52:34 AM >

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Post #: 76

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/3/2020 1:28:33 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53
...it is hard for me to understand that not a single studio has been able to produce a real up to date Steel Panthers clone like they have been producing up to date Panzer General clones...

Well, the problem with producing "clones" is that there are legal issues as well as technical issues.

And while there has been a fair bit of great new content over the last several years (Flashpoint, Desert War, Campaign Series (itself an improvement of a very old system)) the production rate is verrrry slow, because almost everyone does this on a part-time basis.

The only recent games that I like that have kept up a good output schedule are FoG II and CMO (and I haven't even bought CMO because I don't have time to play it!).

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Post #: 77

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/3/2020 10:03:06 PM

Simulacra53

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Actually clones are relatively easy to produce.
Panzer General clones are a dime a dozen today, including on mobile platforms.
Look at XCOM the original series and the current series, again plenty of games that have copied the concept.

So there is little or nothing stopping a company from creating a modern up to date Steel Panthers, except the name.

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Post #: 78

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/3/2020 11:39:31 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Actually clones are relatively easy to produce.
Panzer General clones are a dime a dozen today, including on mobile platforms.
Look at XCOM the original series and the current series, again plenty of games that have copied the concept.

So there is little or nothing stopping a company from creating a modern up to date Steel Panthers, except the name.

And no hope of profits.

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Post #: 79

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/4/2020 3:38:42 PM

Simulacra53

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So you are saying that all those Panzer General clones are generating no profits?
Poor Matrix, they have published Panzer Corps, Panzer Corps 2, Order of Battle and CommanderThe Great War and some more titles of the ilk.
All without any chance of profit?

We have seen Close Combat, no profit? Why produce Bloody First?

Why would a Steel Panther clone / inspired game with up to date graphics generate a loss?

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Post #: 80

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/4/2020 4:08:24 PM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
...

But to a point. My huge problem with complexity in wargames is lack of subordinate AI. Why should I have to handle company mortar fires if I'm a regimental commander? Why should I have to oversee movement of every single squad during urban combat?
...

Couple of reasons , that also explain why games like WitP exist. First and foremost, it's bloody difficult to program and nobody in the commercial wargames market has yet succeeded in creating a fully competent subordinate commander. Problem here is that it's not enough that the feature exists, it must be good at what it does otherwise players would moan about incompetent AI making them lose games. Secondly, the (very) vocal minority of players likes to command every single thing and granularity to the extreme. This is no reflection whatsoever on the tastes of the majority players but it's a kind of an echo chamber and is what developers have to go by, these guys scream really loud that you can never have enough detail. On the other hand you also some old school programmers / developers that grew up frustrated at not being able to play CFNA in board format and now spend their entire life trying to get pc wargames ever closer to being able to do so (meanwhile, losing the bulk market that does give a fig about these complex consims, hence perpetuating the niche aspect of pc wargames). But there's hope, there's new stuff coming out that actually does a decent job at these shortcomings (even some fail miserably in other areas, I'm looking at you cmano).

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Post #: 81

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/4/2020 5:11:45 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

So you are saying that all those Panzer General clones are generating no profits?
Poor Matrix, they have published Panzer Corps, Panzer Corps 2, Order of Battle and CommanderThe Great War and some more titles of the ilk.
All without any chance of profit?

We have seen Close Combat, no profit? Why produce Bloody First?

Why would a Steel Panther clone / inspired game with up to date graphics generate a loss?

We were talking about steel panthers.

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Post #: 82

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/6/2020 11:45:52 AM

Simulacra53

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Ok, that really explains why a game with up to date graphics would fail to generate a profit - thanks for making that clear.

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Post #: 83

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/6/2020 2:25:17 PM

Simulacra53

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So Panzer Corps 2 and Close Combat Bloody First are viable, but an updated Steel Panthers is not, right?

I fail to see the logic here, but I am not smart.

Post #: 84

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 5/6/2020 2:50:22 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Ok, that really explains why a game with up to date graphics would fail to generate a profit - thanks for making that clear.

Pleased to be of service.