RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point

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RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/9/2020 12:21:43 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

Hmm interesting are you saying the game already works this way with FOW unit deselect or that you guys would change it to do this? If it already works that way that certainly does add to the conundrum...

Correct, it currently works this way now.

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Post #: 31

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/9/2020 12:32:15 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

It is not as simple as getting the bonus AP because you "rushed in there." You get the same effect of not having deselected the unit whether you go three hexes in one click or go one hex three times without deselecting. All that matters for the bug is that on the last hex moved you do not deselect.

I reject the implied reconnaissance argument.

When you move 1 hex at a time, the previous hex is considered a committed move where an AP point is deducted, and that previous location will have a fog of war reveal. But the final hex, where you stop moving, does not have a FoW reveal, until you deselect.

It comes down to the final hex where you need to deselect prior to gaining the FoW reveal at that particular hex, and that deselection commits the unit and the final AP cost is deducted.

From just testing this now on my end, as far as I can tell it remains consistent then with what I described in the earlier post on the differences between movements and attacks with my A) and B) examples.

EDIT: One correction to all of this (after testing it again), we did make a change a little while back to eliminate an exploit where players would move one hex at a time to eliminate surprise encounters.

The change made was that whether you moved one hex at a time without deselecting, or one hex at a time with deselecting, the only FoW reveal for your unit moves was only going to be to the very first hex you moved to. Any subsequent hexes moved to after that would not provide any further FoW lifted information and this is currently how it works in game as well. In this case, I would think it reinforces the key differences in the game mechanics of A) and B) even further.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 5/9/2020 1:07:18 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/9/2020 12:39:02 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

If it has been in the game since the beginning, keep it in and call it a feature.
Because it was actually a clever design that favors the bold and you just forgot about it.

�Pour les vaincre, messieurs, il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace, et la France est sauv�e.� meets �Attaque � outrance�

The decisive player who takes direct action after moving is provided a bonus point.
Generals like the German Von Fran�ois or Patton would agree.

At this point I would agree as there is also the distinct possibility this was the intention all along from our design end.

This part of the code was implemented over 3 years ago, and from what I can tell hasn't been touched since then, and if I'm going to be completely honest I can't really remember at this point. There is over 250,000 lines of code for the game now and sometimes we lose track of things and forget to mention them in the manual, or just figure if it ever comes up we can explain it as not everything necessarily goes into the manual and so on.

As mentioned previously, this is the first time it has been noticed/called out, in over 3 years, e.g. since initial release of War in Europe, so I really can't say for sure one way or the other, but all things considered now, officially considering it a game mechanic going forward works for us.

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Post #: 33

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/9/2020 4:17:23 PM

Tanaka

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

It is not as simple as getting the bonus AP because you "rushed in there." You get the same effect of not having deselected the unit whether you go three hexes in one click or go one hex three times without deselecting. All that matters for the bug is that on the last hex moved you do not deselect.

I reject the implied reconnaissance argument.

When you move 1 hex at a time, the previous hex is considered a committed move where an AP point is deducted, and that previous location will have a fog of war reveal. But the final hex, where you stop moving, does not have a FoW reveal, until you deselect.

It comes down to the final hex where you need to deselect prior to gaining the FoW reveal at that particular hex, and that deselection commits the unit and the final AP cost is deducted.

From just testing this now on my end, as far as I can tell it remains consistent then with what I described in the earlier post on the differences between movements and attacks with my A) and B) examples.

EDIT: One correction to all of this (after testing it again), we did make a change a little while back to eliminate an exploit where players would move one hex at a time to eliminate surprise encounters.

The change made was that whether you moved one hex at a time without deselecting, or one hex at a time with deselecting, the only FoW reveal for your unit moves was only going to be to the very first hex you moved to. Any subsequent hexes moved to after that would not provide any further FoW lifted information and this is currently how it works in game as well. In this case, I would think it reinforces the key differences in the game mechanics of A) and B) even further.

This now makes me question why FOW is revealed with deselecting in the first place? Why is it just not removed per AP move period deselecting or not? If it was then the bug could be fixed.

Ah I see now above to prevent the one move at a time FOW exploit. Well damn it sounds like you cannot fix the AP move issue without breaking the FOW move issue? Yep quite the conundrum so maybe it is best to leave as is.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 5/9/2020 4:30:13 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/9/2020 8:35:34 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks Tanaka

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Post #: 35

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/11/2020 2:55:39 AM

Cpuncher

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

As mentioned previously, this is the first time it has been noticed/called out, in over 3 years, e.g. since initial release of War in Europe, so I really can't say for sure one way or the other, but all things considered now, officially considering it a game mechanic going forward works for us.

Honestly, I don't know how the rest of you guys study the manual and play this game. The reason this is only called out in 3 years, is perhaps many players like me, have always regarded this mechanic by design. The menu does mention the special mechanic of "Blitz Attack". Although it doesn't mention specifically that this doesn't cost AP, it's quite implied as it's called "Blitz Attack". I have always used this mechanic since the very first time I played this game, and this has always been part of my planing phase when I map out the entire attack sequence in each area/war front, before I make the first move.

Changing this will dramatically change the pace of this game, and will impact the Axis most. If we do want to make this game to resemble the historical outcome more closely, then it might be worth trying. However, without this mechanic the game will feel far less dynamic and can be frustrating to play.

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Post #: 36

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/12/2020 2:23:10 PM

David Hansen

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WIE "feature" also?

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Post #: 37

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/12/2020 4:00:59 PM

Hubert Cater

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Yes, the same for WiE, WaW and WWI.

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Post #: 38

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/12/2020 8:49:37 PM

Dalwin

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There are other cases in the UI where deselecting on the last AP has an effect that is probably not intended. For example, if a transport arrives at a port (level 5+) on its last AP, it can still unload that same turn. The transported unit is even allowed to move (and if you don't deselect, it can even attack).

The problem is that if that transport which is arriving on its last AP is deselected (probably by accident), it then loses its ability to unload on the same turn. Worse still, it is now blocking the port if there had been other transports in range. It seem hard for me to believe that this behavior is intentional. A problem having gone unnoticed does not make it less of a problem. Either it is right or it is wrong.

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Post #: 39

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/13/2020 7:23:21 AM

Simulacra53

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Call that a feature too, it is the decisive invasion mechanism.
Mars favors the bold.

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Post #: 40

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/13/2020 8:14:33 PM

Dalwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Call that a feature too, it is the decisive invasion mechanism.
Mars favors the bold.

What it is, is a messed up UI where a slight mis-click can have such major effects. One can make up some rationale to support all flaws in the UI if one chooses to do so. I really like this game, but I see no need to blindly endorse the few flaws that it has.

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Post #: 41

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/14/2020 2:46:36 PM

Hubert Cater

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

This now makes me question why FOW is revealed with deselecting in the first place? Why is it just not removed per AP move period deselecting or not?

Forgot to additionally address this one point here in that the other reason why FoW is not immediately revealed per AP move, deselected or not, is that players would not be able to undo moves if this were the case, at least for land units that allow undo moves.

For example, once you deselect the unit it is considered committed to that position and FoW is revealed. If on the other hand the unit has moved, and has not moved adjacent to an enemy unit, then a player can still undo the move as potential hidden enemy units have not yet been revealed.

If FoW was revealed without the deselection, then it would be a cheat of the undo system as players could move all around the map, reveal FoW, and then undo their moves etc.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 5/14/2020 2:51:16 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/14/2020 2:50:02 PM

Hubert Cater

Posts: 5199
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

There are other cases in the UI where deselecting on the last AP has an effect that is probably not intended. For example, if a transport arrives at a port (level 5+) on its last AP, it can still unload that same turn. The transported unit is even allowed to move (and if you don't deselect, it can even attack).

The problem is that if that transport which is arriving on its last AP is deselected (probably by accident), it then loses its ability to unload on the same turn. Worse still, it is now blocking the port if there had been other transports in range. It seem hard for me to believe that this behavior is intentional. A problem having gone unnoticed does not make it less of a problem. Either it is right or it is wrong.

Thanks Dalwin, that is a bug and we'll fix this for a future update. This was also an issue for Amphibious Transports at one time and we corrected it there but seemed to have missed it for regular Transports.

Interestingly enough, after looking into it just now, once a Transport has expended all of its APs and is in a friendly port where it should otherwise be able to unload, it actually still can if you right click it and select unload, e.g. even though it shows with a darkened unit counter and looks like it can no longer move/unload at all.

So it halfway works with this workaround, but we'll fully correct this for the future.

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Post #: 43

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/14/2020 6:37:02 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

This now makes me question why FOW is revealed with deselecting in the first place? Why is it just not removed per AP move period deselecting or not?

Forgot to additionally address this one point here in that the other reason why FoW is not immediately revealed per AP move, deselected or not, is that players would not be able to undo moves if this were the case, at least for land units that allow undo moves.

For example, once you deselect the unit it is considered committed to that position and FoW is revealed. If on the other hand the unit has moved, and has not moved adjacent to an enemy unit, then a player can still undo the move as potential hidden enemy units have not yet been revealed.

If FoW was revealed without the deselection, then it would be a cheat of the undo system as players could move all around the map, reveal FoW, and then undo their moves etc.

Yep another point for leaving as is. Thanks Hubert.

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Post #: 44

RE: Not all attacks cost 1 action point - 5/14/2020 6:38:18 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

There are other cases in the UI where deselecting on the last AP has an effect that is probably not intended. For example, if a transport arrives at a port (level 5+) on its last AP, it can still unload that same turn. The transported unit is even allowed to move (and if you don't deselect, it can even attack).

The problem is that if that transport which is arriving on its last AP is deselected (probably by accident), it then loses its ability to unload on the same turn. Worse still, it is now blocking the port if there had been other transports in range. It seem hard for me to believe that this behavior is intentional. A problem having gone unnoticed does not make it less of a problem. Either it is right or it is wrong.

Thanks Dalwin, that is a bug and we'll fix this for a future update. This was also an issue for Amphibious Transports at one time and we corrected it there but seemed to have missed it for regular Transports.

Interestingly enough, after looking into it just now, once a Transport has expended all of its APs and is in a friendly port where it should otherwise be able to unload, it actually still can if you right click it and select unload, e.g. even though it shows with a darkened unit counter and looks like it can no longer move/unload at all.

So it halfway works with this workaround, but we'll fully correct this for the future.

Yes this has been an annoying one for a while thanks for fixing!

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