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Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 4/30/2020 8:15:23 PM   
willgamer


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From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		This game is an insta-buy for me. Vic is the God of wargamming! I've watched every let' play that I'm aware of. I don't know if these are actual tweaks needed or pilot errors because the game has so many new concepts. OK, all that said...

1. It seems way too easy to miss absolutely critical problems in your empire. Whether it's military, supply, happiness, industry, right now I see a lot of tunnel vision that over looks game wrecking problems.

2. Supply problem root causes are simply too difficult to understand and mitigate.

3. Too many decisions. period....

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 4/30/2020 9:03:28 PM   
FMBluecher

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/16/2019
Status: offline 		I'm in a similar place, and, from what I've seen, I essentially agree with points 1 and 2. Seems like the player could be presented with the information perhaps a little better.

On 3, can you be more specific? Do you mean the game mechanic called "Decisions," or do you mean that, more broadly, the player has too much to manage?

(in reply to willgamer)
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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 4/30/2020 9:05:58 PM   
willgamer


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Status: offline 		I am referring to the start of each turn game mechanic decisions.

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 4/30/2020 9:18:39 PM   
koplinsol

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/23/2020
Status: offline 		See I am not sure I agree with number 3...I like that aspect. Not that its modeling anything that happens for real...but it seems like there should be lots of decisions.

I would like a more streamlined notification system and perhaps a bit more detail about the logistics. But I suspect I will get that once I plow through the manual.

< Message edited by koplinsol -- 5/1/2020 1:06:16 AM >

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/1/2020 1:31:48 AM   
devoncop


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Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		I am with Koplinsol here. Point 3 regarding too many decisions I especially disagree with. The tough choices in the game represented by the decisions and strategems are a huge attraction for me as well as giving unique immersion and flavour.

Point 1 is more a personal preference about games. The Explorminate series on You Tube explores in depth the screens and information in the game and shows how much useful information is at hand for the player once they are familiar with the UI.
I have great respect for all types of gamers but if a player misses vital information it is no fault of the game...it is all to hand.

On supply I have more sympathy as the logistics appear fairly involved but they are logical and realistic which most strategy games certainly cannot claim. Tooltips explicitly explaining why a unit has been unable to get supply "Insufficient food supply" or "unit too far from supply source" for example may be helpful but the info does exist within the logistics tab already from what I have seen.

All the above are only my opinion but the almost universal praise the game is earning from the You Tubers who are already playing the beta version means they also seem to share it.

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/1/2020 4:58:15 AM   
DasTactic

 

Posts: 1083
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Status: offline 		The Logistics system (at least the presentation of it) has been simplified a little. And there is now an advisor that appears at the start of your turn if there is a clear issue. I think the biggest hurdle I had was not keeping my logistics capacity up with my need. Now that I can see what I did wrong the ways of checking are fairly simple - but you need to know how to look for it - such as the Supply button on your SHQ rather than just the road network. :)
Even though I struggled with the supply system I really like the way it works despite its complexity.


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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 1:23:43 AM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
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Status: offline 		There are some gotchas in the early game but that's part of the learning process in any strategy game.

I don't want to be led along by the hand, and I don't think it's either feasible or desirable to provide warnings for every little thing you could do wrong in the game that might cause you to lose. This is a big, complex and deep game, and part of the fun is exploring it and learning all the systems.

There's nothing in this game that can't be figured out using either the excellent and comprehensive tooltips, the in-game tutorial pages (which I expect will be much expanded once the game is released, the manual and a bit of trial and error on the part of the player.

In defence of the original post, this game can take a long time to play, and so I understand that someone might be upset when they're twenty hours in and realised that they forgot a critical part of their development which could lead to a loss. I don't mind that situation personally, and is why I tend to play on smaller maps and restart a lot whilst I'm learning them. But I'm against any simplification of the game mechanics to facilitate easier learning: the kind of people who will buy this game are intelligent and usually willing to read a manual. That's the Matrix way, as far as I can tell :)

The supply system is by far the most difficult part of the game to understand at first but I think that with some expanded tutorial material in-game, it shouldn't be too painful for people to pick up. I've yet to see the latest version of the game but I fully expect it's moved on a fair way since the review copy I have.



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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 8:50:22 AM   
Culthrasa

 

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Status: offline 		Can't agree more with Ben!

As shown in the let's plays, there are reports for EVERYTHING! The player just has to look at them. And I personally look forward to a deep engaging game! Better UI: always, reduce complexity: never :)


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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 4:10:25 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

Can't agree more with Ben!

As shown in the let's plays, there are reports for EVERYTHING! The player just has to look at them. And I personally look forward to a deep engaging game! Better UI: always, reduce complexity: never :)


Just curious- are the start of turn reports just for flavor and the reports that you are speaking of are the in game tabs, or is there any actionable detail in these start of turn reports that I have never seen a youtube'r read?


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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 4:35:46 PM   
devoncop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

Can't agree more with Ben!

As shown in the let's plays, there are reports for EVERYTHING! The player just has to look at them. And I personally look forward to a deep engaging game! Better UI: always, reduce complexity: never :)


Just curious- are the start of turn reports just for flavor and the reports that you are speaking of are the in game tabs, or is there any actionable detail in these start of turn reports that I have never seen a youtube'r read?




Having watched a lot of the You Tube series it seems that there is barely a single notification if any that are "just for flavour".

Every event described and every decision a player is asked to make has a tangible effect on gameplay.


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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 4:49:08 PM   
willgamer


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From: Huntsville, Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop


quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

Can't agree more with Ben!

As shown in the let's plays, there are reports for EVERYTHING! The player just has to look at them. And I personally look forward to a deep engaging game! Better UI: always, reduce complexity: never :)


Just curious- are the start of turn reports just for flavor and the reports that you are speaking of are the in game tabs, or is there any actionable detail in these start of turn reports that I have never seen a youtube'r read?




Having watched a lot of the You Tube series it seems that there is barely a single notification if any that are "just for flavour".

Every event described and every decision a player is asked to make has a tangible effect on gameplay.




Right with respect to the messages the Youtube'rs have shown us. But I have never seen the start of turn messages exposed... perhaps one of these guys could devote just one episode to doing so.

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 5:22:36 PM   
Culthrasa

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 4/16/2017
Status: offline 		@willgamer just to be sure we are speaking about the same thing.

I agree with you that I see tunnelvision in some of the YT video's, mostly a tunnelvision on units. I think this is quite understandable. Playing while recording and keeping the video interesting just makes just that little bit harder for the creator and units are quite visible on the screen. Also, it's not like they have over a 1000 hours in the game yet!

What I also see in the video's is a lack of understanding in some area's. Again quite understandable, the game is new to them too. But i do think the game gives the information you need. The big start of turn message states kills/losses, amount of decisions to make and the amount of available reports. In those reports everything, like a lack of supply, is clearly marked. Two screenshots from Ben's game (ep 16) where he is checking these messages out.





In the second one he is referring to the "overview" message named "urgent issues". For me it doesn't get much clearer then that. This then becomes the starting point to figure out what is wrong. Whether the core problem is the amount of food, the total supply or the supply range they can all be viewed and examined in other places (e.g. the first screenshot or the supply route on the map). I think the game does handle it very well. Yes it is in a menu, but it is a menu that you should be looking in every turn as far as i'm concerned.

The game does need more involvement then AoW or Civ where you just build a building when prompted and move units over the map without the need for supply or anything, but that's what makes this game sooooo much more engaging, challenging and fun to play for me. I'm looking forward to that kind of depth!

edit.. sorry for the large screenshots, can't seem to make them smaller.


< Message edited by Culthrasa -- 5/2/2020 5:25:21 PM >

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/2/2020 8:50:21 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
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From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Yes, that's good info and I agree with you. And thanks for the screen shots!

But no, we're not talking about the same thing.

I was commenting on the much smaller issue of having never seen the "xx messages" that appear in one of the start of each turn screens. I guess I was expecting that there was a place to serially examine each of these xx messages. Perhaps it's only saying that xx messages were generated somewhere within...

No big deal....

< Message edited by willgamer -- 5/2/2020 8:54:56 PM >

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 12:03:20 AM   
KingHalford


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

Yes, that's good info and I agree with you. And thanks for the screen shots!

But no, we're not talking about the same thing.

I was commenting on the much smaller issue of having never seen the "xx messages" that appear in one of the start of each turn screens. I guess I was expecting that there was a place to serially examine each of these xx messages. Perhaps it's only saying that xx messages were generated somewhere within...

No big deal....


Are you talking about the Vid feed at the start of the turn? With the pictorial events?

If so, there's a report tab called Letterbox which repeats that information, and includes more start of turn information that isn't in the Vid feed.

Or are you on about the tutorial messages that crop up from time to time recommending you do certain actions? These can be turned off I think so it might be the other players don't use them.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 5/3/2020 12:04:19 AM >

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 12:34:48 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Are you talking about the Vid feed at the start of the turn? Yes

With the pictorial events? Yes

So is it ever worthwhile going through the items in the Letterbox tab?

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 5:45:17 AM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline 		Ok I understand exactly what you mean now about "xx reports". I've addressed it in the latest video, thanks willgamer!

Edit: yes, the letterbox is well worth looking at, it contains news events that aren't shown on the Vidfeed (including attempts by foreign powers to hit you with diplomatic/espionage events, amongst other things)

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 5/3/2020 5:46:26 AM >

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 6:42:32 AM   
Paez55

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 10/10/2019
Status: offline 		For 1 Isn't the point of the game? What makes the player good or better.
2 see one
3 Maybe the is not game for you. I actually like the complexity.
I do not want the game to be water down. Then it becomes a Cell phone game.

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 2:39:20 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paez55

For 1 Isn't the point of the game? What makes the player good or better.
2 see one
3 Maybe the is not game for you. I actually like the complexity.
I do not want the game to be water down. Then it becomes a Cell phone game.




If that's what you understand about my OP, you understand completely wrong (and your last point borders on a personal attack).

I am a long time player of the Decisive Campaigns series and have beaten DC:Barbarossa on difficult. Please read my first paragraph again! This game is absolutely for me.

Do you not understand this game is in beta and Vic is requesting constructive questions and criticism?!

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RE: Initial reactions from a big supporter... - 5/3/2020 5:31:30 PM   
devoncop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paez55

For 1 Isn't the point of the game? What makes the player good or better.
2 see one
3 Maybe the is not game for you. I actually like the complexity.
I do not want the game to be water down. Then it becomes a Cell phone game.




If that's what you understand about my OP, you understand completely wrong (and your last point borders on a personal attack).

I am a long time player of the Decisive Campaigns series and have beaten DC:Barbarossa on difficult. Please read my first paragraph again! This game is absolutely for me.

Do you not understand this game is in beta and Vic is requesting constructive questions and criticism?!


Hi Will


Although I have argued against your points I think you are right. Just because someone wants a different nuance in the presentation does not mean they want the game transformed into Candy Crush Saga.

I would encourage all different views to contribute as if even one good one is picked up by Vic then we have all gained. No one has a monopoly of wisdom.




< Message edited by devoncop -- 5/3/2020 5:32:49 PM >

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