RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 3:12:01 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:13:55 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

It's a good question; why was it not produced more? Some possibilities:

1. As you say, it simply performs better all-around in-game better than IRL
2. It could be a preference for turning and maneuver vs. speed; IJA and IJN were more used to turning/dog fighting tactics rather than zoom and boom. It could be they preferred more Oscars for this reason
3. Another possibility is production; maybe they just couldn't build more due to engine shortages or limitations at the plant.....Oscar was already in production, so maybe it was just more available

Maybe something else, too. Also, the Japanese expended resources on the Tony, and IIRC they built more of those...certainly more than most players, which is usually NONE. It's possible the Tony was better IRL than in game.

The Tojo to my knowledge wasn't used at all in New Guinea, but the Tony was...and in many ways the Tojo would've been more suitable

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 8/11/2020 4:14:51 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:27:59 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Did you put your P-40Es on Naval Attack at 1000 feet to attack the Invasion Convoys for Luzon? That could lead to a on the Japanese side.

There is no USS Swayback here.

No, the P40s had a more pressing job.

Just kidding about Swayback...in ironman she is 1945 cruiser.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:28:00 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

It's a good question; why was it not produced more? Some possibilities:

1. As you say, it simply performs better all-around in-game better than IRL
2. It could be a preference for turning and maneuver vs. speed; IJA and IJN were more used to turning/dog fighting tactics rather than zoom and boom. It could be they preferred more Oscars for this reason
3. Another possibility is production; maybe they just couldn't build more due to engine shortages or limitations at the plant.....Oscar was already in production, so maybe it was just more available

Maybe something else, too. Also, the Japanese expended resources on the Tony, and IIRC they built more of those...certainly more than most players, which is usually NONE. It's possible the Tony was better IRL than in game.

The Tojo to my knowledge wasn't used at all in New Guinea, but the Tony was...and in many ways the Tojo would've been more suitable

The Oscar was used in New Guinea, it was frequently mistaken for the Zero. In fact, it was referred to as the Army Zero. Just think if the Army used Zeros or the Oscar had Zero armament.

At first the Allies thought that the Tony was a copy of the Me-109. I think that it would have been better then.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:38:55 PM

Bif1961

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The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:44:39 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

Plus, didn't both Army and Navy put a high premium in long legs?

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 4:49:58 PM

Alamander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

+1. The Tojo was very effective based on its service record: the most effective Japanese fighter until the Frank and possibly superior to any allied (correction... single-engine) fighter through the first half of 1943. Unfortunately, it received poor reviews from the veteran pilots when first introduced because it was less manueverable (as Bif observes) and because it had poorer visibility from the cockpit than the Oscar. This resulted in a small early-war production run. Also, the Nakajima 34 engine, a highly modified version of the Nakajim 5, I believe, was not in large-scale production, which also encouraged the army to stay with the Oscar. Because of the poor reviews from the elite front-line pilots, who preferred their Oscars, the Tojo was relegated mostly to China. The non-elite pilots there, however, faired much better in the Tojo and much preferred it over the Oscar.

It's role was to be as a pure interceptor, i.e. a CAP fighter exclusively. With the appearance of allied heavy bombers, it was redesigned, probably inappropriately, as a 4E interceptor (the Tojo IIb in game). It faired much better as an air-superiority fighter than as a 4E interceptor, but the Japanese were desperate for anything to counter the 4Es in 1943.

I think an optimized Japanese air doctrine, which the game allows for in PDU:ON via the production system, which learns from the mistakes of the Japanese and the biases of their elite pilots, would emphasize the Tojo over the Oscar, and use the Tojo as an air superiority fighter. The Japanese air-force would have been far more effective for it, as is reflected in any game where the Japanese player puts emphasis on Tojo production early, such as Mr. Kane was fond of doing.

In my game with Mike, 2 squadrons of Tojos in Burma literally turned the tide of the air-war there and put an end to Mike's offensive air campaign: at least for the moment. With 6 or 7 squadrons, the allies can be swept from the skies in 1942, I suspect: again as Mr. Kane was fond of doing.

< Message edited by Alamander -- 8/11/2020 5:12:57 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 5:01:17 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

Plus, didn't both Army and Navy put a high premium in long legs?

Long legs are nice, much better than short chubby ones, but then you go up from there . . .

Yes, endurance counts but it also depends upon the fight that you are in. Offensively, you need to reach out and touch someone but defensively a longer time in the air may not be necessary depending upon your early warning systems.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 5:36:43 PM

Lowpe

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Absolutely no very good hits on Task Force Kongo at Kota Bharu....Phillips! What have you done?

Image courtesy of Intel Monkey.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/11/2020 5:39:43 PM

Lowpe

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From this you can see our runways are in great shape...

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 1:17:42 AM

Lowpe

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Dec 9th & 10th, 1941

LCDR Madison stood on the quay, binoculars raised....scanning the horizon while Riley stood idly by with Gunny, a scrawny grizzled man that forgot more about the Navy than most Admirals ever learned.

"See the world, join the Navy, that was what my old man said and he got that right, but what in the sam hell are we doing here, helping these so called Allies? Heck, Gunny, they can't even hold their rifles right" Riley carped to Gunny, just outside of earshot of the man while he gave the evil eye to a few soldiers of the 100th Chinese Corp -- reportedly one of the best in all of China.

"Top Secret, Riley. Now, stow it, and secure those wagons" the Gunny barked, turned his back and walked to the Lieutenant Commander. With nobody within hearing distance that spoke English, the Gunny continued: "Well, you are the highest ranking American Officer here in country, so congratulations are in order -- but what are we doing in China? I hear Houston got torpedoed back near Luzon...she needs us. All these prime workers here, and for what?"

"For them, Gunny, for them," gestured the Commander "One o'clock off the quay's starboard side" and he handed the binoculars to Gunny. Gunny's eyes weren't the best, but he could make out the black oily smoke from ships, on the horizon...but there also seemed to white smoke too, now, mixing and growing with the black into a greyish blob.

"If they are ours, they are in trouble, making smoke now" Gunny replied handing the binoculars back to his young Commander. "We will be ready for them, if they get here" and he was off to oversee the dockworkers on the quay shouting about twin fiftys'....

But the words were lost to the Commander, as he concentrated thru the binoculars, but at this distance all he could see was the greyish smoke...and then minutes later, several twin engine Japanese torpedo bombers screamed by, low, and without their ordinary ordinance....long, lethal torpedoes, but with the Rising Sun painted on their fuselage. Was it an omen of things to come?

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/12/2020 1:55:48 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 1:37:11 AM

Lowpe

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What a long, strange trip its been....

Scout, Thanet and Thracian are given "Seek and Destroy" orders...and Commander Powers delivers!

BTW, the Rikko Maru is a big tanker.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/12/2020 1:49:21 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 1:41:38 AM

Lowpe

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Commander Powers contemplates his next move...confident his task force will honor the highest traditions of the Navy.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 1:52:30 AM

offenseman

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I'd go east into the East China Sea and hunt merchies. Maybe catch a convoy heading toward Formosa with troops on it.

For the record, I made this post before Scout started his AAR and I will not comment on either as long as I am reading both.

< Message edited by offenseman -- 8/12/2020 2:02:21 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 2:33:52 AM

Lowpe

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Mines....but we are prepared.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 2:44:25 AM

Lowpe

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Totally unexpected...my trap for the fleet carriers for naught. But, it bodes well for the Thundering Herd.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 2:53:05 AM

Lowpe

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I get the feeling the Allies are going to get a lot of shipping away...

Beast bomb Formosa, Nates on CAP...

Thundering Herd seems untouched...

Louisville shadowed in Pacific...

Halsey misses the KB...

Lady Lex and Big E seem unspotted near Wake Island...

Hong Kong cargo shipping pretty devastated...

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 3:07:08 AM

Lowpe

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Early morning hours, missed opportunities...but the Thundering Herd is making progress...

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 3:13:28 AM

Lowpe

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KB very close to Midway...Big E and Lady Lex should be fairly close to Wake. Cat and Mouse....

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 3:16:16 AM

Lowpe

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Kingfishers....2K attack...don't really expect much.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 3:53:58 AM

Lowpe

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A look at the enemy carriers...only 5 ships left of the Hong Kong Cargo muster...one xakl will burn up, so that leaves only 4 left plus the starting destroyers. The MTBs I disbanded back to the pools...hopefully I can spawn them at Singers.

Thundering herd around Busanaga...most damaged subs and ASs' are at Lubang.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 3:56:17 AM

Lowpe

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Air losses...

The H81s lost over Rangoon, most losses are there.

Forgot to take some Blenheim and Hudson off naval attack at Singers...my bad.

Catalina's downed 1 hex from Midway by the weak KB.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:00:30 AM

Lowpe

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Japan invades Nauru and Manus in the Pacific...

Dutch sink a good merchant ship off Vietnam...

Iboats nail 3 ships, one a decent tanker (5190 capacity). To be expected since I am woefully short of escorts and absolutely refuse to use destroyers in that role.

I think Japan is off to a very slow start here.

But he is doing unexpected things, and did sink about 6k supplies from Hong Kong at sea.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:08:19 AM

Lowpe

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Oh, for some Iboats in the Bay of Bengal...

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:15:35 AM

Lowpe

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In the Wake of the KB....will be trailing it to Midway/Wake and hopefully Marcus.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:28:24 AM

Lowpe

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Pilot training...a riddle, wrapped in a shadow, cloaked in mystery or whatever. You get the picture. Yeah, eventually these guys might train fighter pilots or something else, but right now I want naval search.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/12/2020 4:33:44 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:32:08 AM

Lowpe

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A more typical squadron at San Fran...morale is a little lower than the floats...but still you would expect a bit better job, wouldn't you. RNG Gods rule!

It would be cool if the results were low because he isn't physically here. Too cool!

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/12/2020 4:34:44 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 4:39:07 AM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I'd go east into the East China Sea and hunt merchies. Maybe catch a convoy heading toward Formosa with troops on it.

For the record, I made this post before Scout started his AAR and I will not comment on either as long as I am reading both.

I have never gotten upset at leaks...it is the price of an AAR, and it is always more gratifying to show the plans before they take effect.

Do I game to write an AAR or write to game the AAR? I believe, but don't know for sure, that Japan's AAR is open to me...so we can add lots of flavor...like Stuart tanks driving into Iba� and counterattacking the infantry of the Kanno Detachment lacking any AT guns...and held on the beaches.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 5:01:12 AM

DesertWolf101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I'd go east into the East China Sea and hunt merchies. Maybe catch a convoy heading toward Formosa with troops on it.

For the record, I made this post before Scout started his AAR and I will not comment on either as long as I am reading both.

I have never gotten upset at leaks...it is the price of an AAR, and it is always more gratifying to show the plans before they take effect.

Do I game to write an AAR or write to game the AAR? I believe, but don't know for sure, that Japan's AAR is open to me...so we can add lots of flavor...like Stuart tanks driving into Iba� and counterattacking the infantry of the Kanno Detachment lacking any AT guns...and held on the beaches.

In my Allied game I threw the Japanese back into the sea at Iba with the tank battalions. Just keep an eye out for enemy bombardments from the sea.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/12/2020 8:13:24 AM

Bif1961

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Good luck, look forward to following your contest in your AAR. So the three British destroyers adventure is their Pacific version of Faith, Hope and Charity?

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